How to have a fantasy kingdom fight the US Armed Forces?
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To be scrupulously fair, the anime does exaggerate that aspect of her, to the point where people do go "everybody run, the nuke happy mage just showed up". Which is less about her power level, and more that she has a bad attitude and a very short temper, so people know she is willing to nuke towns on much less justification than is normally required.
In the original light novels, Lina is still bad-tempered and has a bad attitude, but she's also smart and capable of subtlety, so she does treat her nuke spell with the gravitas it deserves.
Also Lina is not the most powerful mage in the series (in either anime or light novels). She's one of the most powerful, but the more powerful mages tend to be attached to a country or research institution. Which kind of makes it less appealing for the hypothetical Modern Military Invasion: if they attack a country, Lina might not be there, but the country's mages certainly will be.
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I'm also kind of curious about the situation where the Modern Military can win the war, but is almost certainly going to fail to win the peace.
Let's take the situation in Final Fantasy XIV's Eorzea as an example. The general power level is indeed on the scale of "regular mages cast fireballs that one-shot tanks", but let's say the Modern Military goes all-in and overwhelms with sheer force of arms.
The big threat as conveyed to players at the beginning of the game are the Primals. These are deiform entities made out of "aether" (ie magical power, which is synonymous with "life force"), and are summoned by people praying very hard (and very focused) for their gods to save them. To manifest, a Primal requires both faith, and a supply of aether. There's a lot of nuance and caveats there, but for the purpose of this discussion, that's about it.
Now, Primals themselves vary on how powerful they are. We'll put aside the super-powerful ancient ones which have "shoot magical nukes at will" as a basic power. The ones the Eorzeans have to deal with are generally much less powerful, and a determined and skilled adventurer party can, with certain protections, take one down, and often does so routinely. So a Modern Military can probably kill a Primal fairly easily, especially if they have heavy ordnance and the capability to use it in a quick strike.
The issues with Primals come twofold: firstly, every Primal has the capability to convert any sapient organic being to their cause. The more blatant examples turn the armies sent against them into fanatical followers. So any Primal will need to be taken out from a distance, or by robot drones. That, or use the initial Eorzean strategy: send in one army, send in a second army after the first one is converted to fight that first army, then send in a third army to actually kill the Primal.
The second issue is every person in Eorzea can summon a Primal, if they are sufficiently desperate and have a source of aether. Usually this aether comes in the form of naturally-occurring crystals that pop up everywhere (Eorzea is naturally rich in aether), but it's also possible to summon Primals via living sacrifices. In fact, Primals summoned by sacrifice tend to be much stronger, possibly due to the increased fanaticism and ritual.
So the Modern Military can win the territory they set out to win, but then will be faced with the problem of Primals, and what is essentially an eternal insurgency from potentially every sapient being in the territory. The characters in the setting try to solve the problem of Primals in one of two ways: the "good guys" of the player factions recognize that they need to remove the cause of Primal summoning by reducing the desperation of the summoners, and trying to live together peacefully. The "bad guys" of the Evil Empire choose complete genocide of any race with a history of Primal summoning.
I would be curious which option the Modern Military would go with.
Mak Taru
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Just figured I'd list a few of the spells from Bastard!! (in the early part of the manga, before the angels and demons got involved, where power levels were still somewhat reasonable).
- Accused: Places a curse on a single person, who must follow the commands of the caster forever. If they refuse, they will be transmuted into a toad, and lose any powers they may have had.
- Iron Lightning Anthem: Fires bullets of magical light that will always strike their target, unless it is protected by a powerful magical barrier.
- Talas: A ranged magic blast that turns any living creature it hits into stone
- Venom: Summons a corrosive material from Hell that instantly appears on/inside a target, causing their cells to disintegrate. Also sets anything it hits on fire.
- Exodus: Basically turns the user into a living fireball that can blast/melt through most types of obstacles. Was even able to kill a fire elemental by overwhelming it with more powerful fire.
- Assassin: Spell used by vampires, a rapidfire series of energy beams that cause all matter they come into contact with to explode.
- Raven: Flight spell, allows the user to maneuver at supersonic+ speed or higher and remain in the air pretty much indefinitely as long as they have enough magic power to keep it up.
- Suicidal Tendencies: Summons a massive cloud of corrosive gas that causes anything it touches to disintegrate (unless protected by a magic forcefield).
- Megadeth: Creates an explosion wherever the caster wishes. Powerful enough to demolish a large castle or part of a mountain.
- Helloween: Fires a beam of magical hellfire more intense than a particle accelerator, can level a mountain.
- Giran Ira: Creates a black hole - like vortex that sucks everything around it into another dimension
- Led Zeppelin: Creates a dimensional prison around a large area that summons starving souls from Hell that devour everything within it, both physical and spiritual.
- Testament: Freezes everything in a huge area to absolute zero, causing any kind of matter to completely disintegrate.
- Black Sabbath: Creates a magical forcefield around a target and triggers a nuclear reaction concentrated within the forcefield, which atomizes all matter inside and then teleports it to another dimension. Can be used on large areas. If the forcefield part of the spell isn't set up correctly, the damage can cause a chain reaction that could potentially destroy the world.
- Judas Priest: Similar to Black Sabbath, except used more forcefields, and is much more powerful, and can even destroy a target's soul.
Although there are only maybe a few dozen people who can use 1 or more of these... and only 1 or 2 who can use most of them.
- Accused: Places a curse on a single person, who must follow the commands of the caster forever. If they refuse, they will be transmuted into a toad, and lose any powers they may have had.
- Iron Lightning Anthem: Fires bullets of magical light that will always strike their target, unless it is protected by a powerful magical barrier.
- Talas: A ranged magic blast that turns any living creature it hits into stone
- Venom: Summons a corrosive material from Hell that instantly appears on/inside a target, causing their cells to disintegrate. Also sets anything it hits on fire.
- Exodus: Basically turns the user into a living fireball that can blast/melt through most types of obstacles. Was even able to kill a fire elemental by overwhelming it with more powerful fire.
- Assassin: Spell used by vampires, a rapidfire series of energy beams that cause all matter they come into contact with to explode.
- Raven: Flight spell, allows the user to maneuver at supersonic+ speed or higher and remain in the air pretty much indefinitely as long as they have enough magic power to keep it up.
- Suicidal Tendencies: Summons a massive cloud of corrosive gas that causes anything it touches to disintegrate (unless protected by a magic forcefield).
- Megadeth: Creates an explosion wherever the caster wishes. Powerful enough to demolish a large castle or part of a mountain.
- Helloween: Fires a beam of magical hellfire more intense than a particle accelerator, can level a mountain.
- Giran Ira: Creates a black hole - like vortex that sucks everything around it into another dimension
- Led Zeppelin: Creates a dimensional prison around a large area that summons starving souls from Hell that devour everything within it, both physical and spiritual.
- Testament: Freezes everything in a huge area to absolute zero, causing any kind of matter to completely disintegrate.
- Black Sabbath: Creates a magical forcefield around a target and triggers a nuclear reaction concentrated within the forcefield, which atomizes all matter inside and then teleports it to another dimension. Can be used on large areas. If the forcefield part of the spell isn't set up correctly, the damage can cause a chain reaction that could potentially destroy the world.
- Judas Priest: Similar to Black Sabbath, except used more forcefields, and is much more powerful, and can even destroy a target's soul.
Although there are only maybe a few dozen people who can use 1 or more of these... and only 1 or 2 who can use most of them.
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Zedalb
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You both fundementally misunderstand what I'm doing.
I'm not saying this is why the Modern Side wins.
I'm making a filter, a checklist.
The ops example was not gates so ICBMs are on the table.
But yeah I'm making a checklist.
Any Fantasy Setting that can not defend from ICBMs and Move their troops at a roughly equatable rate loses.
Granted on point two, the land defended by monsters is a concern but only if they can stop paratroopers, only if artillery can't kill those monsters, etc etc. Only if .50 cals on up armored Humvees don't work.
So point two should be
[]Stop Troop movement or Match it's speed.
Meaning
[] ICBM Defense
[] Stop Troop movement or match it's speed.
Is the current check list a fantasy nation needs to be able to do both of those or it loses.
We can keep adding to the list.
I think
Artillery might be a third, for instance 24 hours of artillery bombardment removes all Dnd Magic, since the physical requirements to meditate on your spells and such.
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Pure mechanics d&d? Maybe, but if we used stuff from the novels and lore from the setting sourcebooks, any mage who matters even within the settings has spells outside the ones they memorize, sometimes on the level of dozens to hundreds. In once case a guy had so many "blast the area if I die" contingency spells set up that it's still going centuries later. Lore mages actually plan around their weaknesses. Like the guy who set up "if my hands are damaged, blast all enemies in the area with 24 consecutive magic missile spells"
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Entropy Judge
Recurring Bouts of Misanthropy
I don't think you're going to see much of that; the groups I can think of that could believably fight a modern military do so either on the back of Magus Ex Machina or because magic is so common that a significant portion of the populace have magic as something they can do, and powerful mages are just more common.
I'm not seeing a valuable difference between "A wins because it has X," and "B loses because it cannot defend against X."
Shanejayell
Yuri Fan without a Pause
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Re-reading the intro... are we assuming that tech-USA and magic-nation are on the same world? Or no?
Because that makes a huge difference right there. If they have been on one world all along, one assumes magic would have developed counters as tech developed too. And vice versa. At best they're locked in a perpetual stalemate, at worse it's a Mutually Assured Destruction situation.
Because that makes a huge difference right there. If they have been on one world all along, one assumes magic would have developed counters as tech developed too. And vice versa. At best they're locked in a perpetual stalemate, at worse it's a Mutually Assured Destruction situation.
Same world, yes. And no, they did not exist before I said they did. That would overcomplicate an already complicated scenario.
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I've mentioned this in a prior post, but that's not going to happen. Not the mage parts, but the "clash of armies". In a high fantasy setting, even as far back as Lord of the Rings, the conventional army doesn't exist to win victory, it exists to hold out long enough for the "hero" characters to take out the enemy leadership with their superior abilities and powers. The US or other modern militaries stomps on the generic troops, but that's irrelevant in the fantasy kingdom's strategy, because that distraction bought time for the heroes/mages/demons/dragons/whatever to murder the fuck out of the enemy leadership or mind control them or just take them hostage.
The strategic goals are different and that results in very different organizations, even given the resources available. To force the fantasy side to fight the modern army and have that battle decide things cripples them because that's not how war works there. They operate on the idea that taking out the enemy leader is victory, and so everything about them works in terms of accomplishing that.
Epsilon Rose
The King of Unrest
You say that, but how does them existing on the same world actually work if they didn't develop on that world? What world are they even on at that point?
Zedalb
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Because B is undefined (the fantasy side)
The idea is to create a list, you can then choose B and compare it to the list.
Like I think DnD loses 99% of the time.
But let's check aganist the current check list with the forgotten realms.
Dnd Lore book says 1% of the population is magic in TFR
Ed Greenwood on twitter confirmed less than 5% of Wizards can cast above second level spells.
Waterdeep a major city had a population of 130K which means 1300 mages
And of them only 65 can cast above a second level spell. Presumably of most of those it's only third level.
How the bell chart lays out exactly could be debated but when your capital city with a famous magical school only has 65 "real" wizards in it your probably in trouble.
Now, DnD magic even in lore takes several seconds to cast, at the speed an ICBM flies, they are all dead between the time they see it and the time it arrives.
Now some of those 65 wizards have contingincy spells set up to save their lives, I don't expect all of them do.
So you have sub 50 survivors per city, but they are all pretty strong mages. That leaves your total army to a few hundred serious wizards. Assuming they band together for shared power helps. They can start hunting artifacts, equipment spell books, and doing whatever else they need to survive.
But it's pretty clear that they are in a very bad position, with heroics victory might be possible, but I'd give the odds to modern forces.
Since nothing in DnD could stop a sudden ICBM that isn't a god.
It's also important to note, that DnD magic requires material componets, many of which might have been imported from another country which would be lost by the OP method.
It also means, that attacking the industry and burning cities, and taking land hurts the wizards. They need not just a gem to cast a contigency spell, but a specific special one, worth at least X price. Once the gem mines are seized a HUGE chunk of spells are off the table for them.
Dnd's reliance upon material componets is often forgotten but is a canon fact, it's just glossed over even in the books.
Which ICBMs destroy those material componets.
So the fail in check list box 1.
Part 2 they also fail given the rarity of mages and massive cost of teleportaiton and magic equipment.
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Entropy Judge
Recurring Bouts of Misanthropy
Okay, can you actually explain a meaningful difference between the two takes?
Epsilon Rose
The King of Unrest
I'm not convinced that's a good way to analyze any of this?
For starters, you're assuming that the US is going to be tossing around ICBMs and that they need to be countered after launch, but tossing around nukes isn't actually a great strategy as it invites extreme retaliation and does a good job of denying you whatever territory you might want to capture. Similarly, even the US couldn't reliably defend against an ICBM post launch, which is a large part of why MAD works the way it does. But there's nothing to say mages couldn't have established defenses that either preempt the nuclear strike, stopping it at it's source, or broadly shield against it, without them having to cast after it's already in the air. In fact, I think that's a much more likely model for their defensive posture, which renders both the flight speed and flight time somewhat irrelevant.
You also keep bringing up how rare high-level wizards are, but that runs into several problems, which mostly tie back into WotC being terrible with numbers, but those numbers are also kind-of irrelevant. The population statistics they like to throw around don't really match up with what we see in games or stories set in the D&D universe, because we know that high level wizards, and things that can contend with them, exist in meaningful numbers and it doesn't actually take that long for an adventurer to reach a decently high level. (Maybe it's more that high level wizards aren't permanently attached to cities, they're either off adventuring or in more rarified environments. In effect, looking for them in the capital might be like looking for PhDs in a high school.) More importantly, because of the way high level wizards work, you don't actually need an army of them to counter a mundane army; one or two are enough and we know that there are more than one or two.
Why would you assume that high level mages are getting their reagents from mundane mines, rather than more consistent and accessible mystical sources? Also, there are definitely build options that let you eschew material components, or at least specific material components. There are also clerics who can call down literal divine rath, which feels like a reasonable consideration if your default tactic is going to be nuclear party favors.
For starters, you're assuming that the US is going to be tossing around ICBMs and that they need to be countered after launch, but tossing around nukes isn't actually a great strategy as it invites extreme retaliation and does a good job of denying you whatever territory you might want to capture. Similarly, even the US couldn't reliably defend against an ICBM post launch, which is a large part of why MAD works the way it does. But there's nothing to say mages couldn't have established defenses that either preempt the nuclear strike, stopping it at it's source, or broadly shield against it, without them having to cast after it's already in the air. In fact, I think that's a much more likely model for their defensive posture, which renders both the flight speed and flight time somewhat irrelevant.
You also keep bringing up how rare high-level wizards are, but that runs into several problems, which mostly tie back into WotC being terrible with numbers, but those numbers are also kind-of irrelevant. The population statistics they like to throw around don't really match up with what we see in games or stories set in the D&D universe, because we know that high level wizards, and things that can contend with them, exist in meaningful numbers and it doesn't actually take that long for an adventurer to reach a decently high level. (Maybe it's more that high level wizards aren't permanently attached to cities, they're either off adventuring or in more rarified environments. In effect, looking for them in the capital might be like looking for PhDs in a high school.) More importantly, because of the way high level wizards work, you don't actually need an army of them to counter a mundane army; one or two are enough and we know that there are more than one or two.
Why would you assume that high level mages are getting their reagents from mundane mines, rather than more consistent and accessible mystical sources? Also, there are definitely build options that let you eschew material components, or at least specific material components. There are also clerics who can call down literal divine rath, which feels like a reasonable consideration if your default tactic is going to be nuclear party favors.
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If the fantasy kingdom is on earth, then ICBMs can't be used without risking triggering all out nuclear war with or Russia who aren't going know they aren't aimed at them but will know if they have been launched and if this fantasy kingdom was on another world than ICBMs wouldn't be able to target any part of said kingdom in the first place.
Entropy Judge
Recurring Bouts of Misanthropy
Nukes shouldn't be on the table anyway, because they interfere with the whole "clash of armies and nations" the same way that Magus Ex Machina events do.
Zedalb
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I already have.
One is a tool.
One is an argument.
I am formatting it as a tool, so that you can use the tool to check which fantasy settings have a reasonable chance.
I myself don't intend to make any more arguments.
After the below response.
ICBM come in all flavors of explosive and CBRN.
And because the DND spells themselves just call them gems, and nothing in the specific setting I used ever had mad, something like magical mass scale 3d printing.
(Also the fact that the gems have to have a set cost, gets real fucking weird real fast with economics and magical production)
There are build options that's correct but
Given that their is probably under 20 even mid level mages (95% of all mages are below level 6) and most people would not be anywhere near as optomized as PC's I wouldn't worry about it as much, and some mages not being hit by the material componet thing as much isn't an issue given that many still would be. Also given this is a singular country most splat books, races and feats are off the table. Also most people are NPC classes not PC classes which further reduces the variety.
People also don't get spells automatically as players do (technically players don't either but it's assumed to be done in the background) so it's entierly possible that NPCs of the same level to have fewer spells known each and fewer spells to pick from in an area.
Like obviously Pun Pun solos not just modern millitary but all known universes and settings at the same time including killing all the abrahamic gods with nothing but one toe.
But that's vastly different than talking about what the actual lore says about nations.
I'd like you to keep in mind, the vast majority of the people in DnD are one house cat scartch away from dying, literally.
Entropy Judge
Recurring Bouts of Misanthropy
??? They're both arguments - they're the same argument, in fact, posed slightly differently:
Formulation A: A wins because it has nukes. (And B can't stop them.)
Formulation B: B loses because it can't stop nukes. (And A has them.)
Zedalb
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I can explain it for you but I can't understand it for you.
If I don't define the magic setting, there is no B.
I'm not putting the B in.
Therefore I am making no argument about B.
In fact you the check list does not need to include anything about B at all.
I am composing a list of advantages A has.
That list with nothing else is not an argument for A winning or losing it is a data point.
So far I have:
[] ICBM/Very Long range bombardment (it doesn't technically matter much if it's a jet dropping a bomb or a missle really)
[] Rapid troop movement
[] Large Variety of weaponry types (Chemical, biological, nuclear, bombs, flame throwers, etc)
Zedalb
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Step 1: Remove the last line it puts nukes directly on the table, later in the thread people say nukes should be off the table, they are right.
Step 2: Make the US colonizers.
- If they are just going for mass destruction it's hard to justify a country that has the firepower to destroy the entire planet several hundred times over not being able to blow one country to hell.
Step 3: Get real used to the idea of gurelia warfare and urban combat.
The fantasy kingdom can deck out a few hundred, or few thousand very skilled people and use magic for stealth/escape strike and escape very much like modern special forces. In fact you'd probably see a lot of magic SF and Normal SF fighting.
The Colonization makes a lot of sense, magical materials like mithiral and adamtium are incredibly valuable, actual magic (healing magic especially) is worth an amazing amount.
Magical creatures even basic ones like giant spiders could be worth billions (actual giant spiders would be worth billions).
You won't get giant battle fields, if you want you could have a city with a hundred skrimishes happening all at once, people running block to block getting involved in different fights trying to organize and rally a chaotic mess.
Just assume open fields belong to modern forces though.
Get the wizards working on some type of large scale EMP spell, and possibly some anti-bullet protection stuff.
The way the fantasy kingdom wins? That's tricky because cutting off the head of the snake doesn't work. Defeating the millitary doesn't really seem plausiable (always poor kids to throw into the meat grinder and ww2 puts conscription on the table).
Well long range EMP spells would work, essentially magical land needs to develop, and deploy it's own verison of MAD at least once.
Though there are a variety of ways they could do this.
Most of the war would thus be trying to drag out the clock and get things the wizards need to figure out their own WMD equivalent. Though that could be a vampire terreasque with enchanted armor, or whatever else as long as it's a big enough threat to say "Get out of yard" and it works. Actually seizing control of the nuclear football and a luanch site might work to, make the US nuke itself or something.
Entropy Judge
Recurring Bouts of Misanthropy
But it is? "A wins because it has X-Y-Z advantages," is absolutely an argument. It's a standing claim that if the other side can't overmatch, resist, evade, or otherwise deal with the advantages presented, it's going to lose. That you aren't saying anything specific about A's opponent doesn't really matter, because your argument stands perfectly well as an If-Then argument instead of a Because argument. Like, you actually say this:
Which is ... an argument that if B can't negate all of A's advantages, B loses.
(And it's a slightly iffy argument anyway, because a faction might be able to negate some advantages but not others, but it has advantages of its own that could allow it to win despite not countering all of A's advantages.)
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Honestly, the number one problem here, aside from a degree of incoherence per the "list" concept, is you haven't actually come up with a strategic scenario. Briefly, why are they fighting? What are the strategic objectives involved here? And what is the political situation that led up to the war?
Armies don't exist in a vacuum, wars don't simply just happen. Both are products of cultural and political realities and dynamic historical and current events. In short, you haven't even begun to lay the groundwork in this situation, so at this point it makes as much sense as one of those idiotic battle simulator videos where you have a thousand Jedi vs 10,000 vikings, and both sides just stand there hacking at each other.
I mean, as a start, you talk about how unless the fantasy side can withstand nukes, they will use. Well that leads to the question, why are nukes even on the table? Based on the last 77 years of history, nuclear weapon use is subject to severe military and political constraints- NATO and Russia both have a "only in reaction to a nuclear strike, or in a case of all out war." Yet you seem to have nukes on the table on the same level as infantry.
So you have some homework to do, to actually lay out the larger scenario, especially if you have nukes on the table., because that implies a war for existence. And admittedly, this scenario is even more difficult, because the modern USA encountering a fantasy kingdom should be an out-of-context problem for both sides, so war, especially all-out war should be the last stage of a succession of decision-making that probably involves a lot of diplomatic failures.
Armies don't exist in a vacuum, wars don't simply just happen. Both are products of cultural and political realities and dynamic historical and current events. In short, you haven't even begun to lay the groundwork in this situation, so at this point it makes as much sense as one of those idiotic battle simulator videos where you have a thousand Jedi vs 10,000 vikings, and both sides just stand there hacking at each other.
I mean, as a start, you talk about how unless the fantasy side can withstand nukes, they will use. Well that leads to the question, why are nukes even on the table? Based on the last 77 years of history, nuclear weapon use is subject to severe military and political constraints- NATO and Russia both have a "only in reaction to a nuclear strike, or in a case of all out war." Yet you seem to have nukes on the table on the same level as infantry.
So you have some homework to do, to actually lay out the larger scenario, especially if you have nukes on the table., because that implies a war for existence. And admittedly, this scenario is even more difficult, because the modern USA encountering a fantasy kingdom should be an out-of-context problem for both sides, so war, especially all-out war should be the last stage of a succession of decision-making that probably involves a lot of diplomatic failures.
Zedalb
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The op explicetly put nukes on the table.
Op explicetly laid out the situation and said the US is "Holding nothing back WW2 Style"
WW2 nukes were not used as a final response they were used as the first response to save lives (on one side) once they could be.
In that mind set a day 1 full scale nuclear anihlation of the newly appeared fantasy nation is fitting, why should we send our infantry to die?
If you wish to show me a fantasy nation that can withstand roughly 4000 nuclear weapon and thousands of other ICBMs with no warning and no counter and then still win the war go ahead and do so. (And if they can, that is it's own counter anyway)
But I'd say that it's not an argument it's tuatological unless you can.
"If you don't have someway to stop nukes, or survive them, they will kill you" isn't an argument, that's just explaining how death works.
Because we have a set size of the fantasy nation (china) so yes. The statement for point is.
"If you can't survive 4K nuclear attacks, and they are launched at you, you die" isn't an argument it's tautlogical.
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What constitutes a "counter", in this case? I can think of a few examples of fantasy countries which can indeed "withstand" thousands of nuclear weapons and assorted ICBMs, and also have various means of offensive capabilities that can help them win a hypothetical war, but these capabilities are stuff that works on anything, not just nukes in particular. And there's no scale of "proportional response" in play here, presumably.
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How much of the supporting infra structure for the military gets transported to this new world both sides are fighting in?
Do they have oil refineries, ammunition factories, and all other stuff a modern military needs to keep going?
Also, i would strongly doubt the idea that you could just throw 4k nukes with no warning.
Because precogs exist, and i would expect something of that magnitude to rings alarms for pretty much every precog alive and trigger dozens of heroic quests, possibly given directly by the gods, to stop it.
Assuming the local magic users can't just create a city wide shields, or teleport the cities, or the nukes, away.
Do they have oil refineries, ammunition factories, and all other stuff a modern military needs to keep going?
Also, i would strongly doubt the idea that you could just throw 4k nukes with no warning.
Because precogs exist, and i would expect something of that magnitude to rings alarms for pretty much every precog alive and trigger dozens of heroic quests, possibly given directly by the gods, to stop it.
Assuming the local magic users can't just create a city wide shields, or teleport the cities, or the nukes, away.
Mak Taru
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If it's a dimensional portal scenario, then I would figure that modern forces would be more willing to use nukes, as all of the damage and fallout would be contained on the other side and not damage their own Earth. But of course that means they would first have to transport the components for the missiles and launchers through the portal and then assemble them on the other side, which kind of precludes an immediate first strike.