How to have a fantasy kingdom fight the US Armed Forces?

If you wish to show me a fantasy nation that can withstand roughly 4000 nuclear weapon and thousands of other ICBMs with no warning and no counter and then still win the war go ahead and do so.
Oh, that's easy - any nation where everyone is a ghost. Similarly, a nation where the population consists of golems or similar entities that are resistant or immune to the primary damage mechanisms of nuclear weapons would work. If you want a specific state that can be argued over, the Drow from many D&D settings would work, due to their nation being so far underground that four thousand nukes won't be capable of digging deep enough to reach them (provided they're increased in size to something China-like per the OP).
 
Oh, that's easy - any nation where everyone is a ghost. Similarly, a nation where the population consists of golems or similar entities that are resistant or immune to the primary damage mechanisms of nuclear weapons would work. If you want a specific state that can be argued over, the Drow from many D&D settings would work, due to their nation being so far underground that four thousand nukes won't be capable of digging deep enough to reach them (provided they're increased in size to something China-like per the OP).
That's a good point, trying to invade the various drow city-states would be an utter nightmare for a modern army. No artillery, no air support, no armored anything. Against an enemy who sees you based on your bodyheat, and wears cloaks made to suppress their own, in tight quarters, when they all use weapons and armor made from an alloy stronger than any metal on earth
 
That's a good point, trying to invade the various drow city-states would be an utter nightmare for a modern army. No artillery, no air support, no armored anything. Against an enemy who sees you based on your bodyheat, and wears cloaks made to suppress their own, in tight quarters, when they all use weapons and armor made from an alloy stronger than any metal on earth
Also have the ability (through spells and magic items) to pass through solid rock without leaving a trace.
And can create traps or alarms completely undetectable through non magical means.

Not to forget everyone else down there, sentient or otherwise, who have similar capabilities.
 
Also have the ability (through spells and magic items) to pass through solid rock without leaving a trace.
And can create traps or alarms completely undetectable through non magical means.

Not to forget everyone else down there, sentient or otherwise, who have similar capabilities.

It might be possible to drill underground and place shaped charge nuclear warheads if they know where to dig, though.
 
But yeah, fending off nukes even without an environmental or physiological advantage would be, like probably Exalted and half the Xianxia genre just off the top of my head (major sect or city defenses would probably just laugh, and then some b-lister would chuck a mountain at the launch sites)? It's very much not an empty set.

There's some I'm forgetting the name of that exists in a state where the setting has been bouncing intercontinental citykillers off each other for generations, a nuke not empowered by the screaming souls of the dead would be passe, heh.

Standard dnd would probably be pretty tore up in the initial barrage, but then you'd have a lot of very pissed off superhumans still left and gods only know what sort of undead would walk out of nuclear blast sites on that sort of scale. It's the kind of setting where you could probably do it, but you'd be owning yourself as most of the folks you killed reanimated as vengeful, nuke immune, undead. Nuclear ash specters would probably be terrifying :V
 
It should be remembered that lof od DnD settings are already post apocalyptic many times over.
That's where all the dungeons come from.
You might be able to destroy the current (above ground) civilization, but there would still be enough godlike beings to destroy whatever destroyed the civilization.
Assuming the nukes don't just end up waking something that destroys everything and everyone before going back to sleep.
 
Oh, that's easy - any nation where everyone is a ghost. Similarly, a nation where the population consists of golems or similar entities that are resistant or immune to the primary damage mechanisms of nuclear weapons would work. If you want a specific state that can be argued over, the Drow from many D&D settings would work, due to their nation being so far underground that four thousand nukes won't be capable of digging deep enough to reach them (provided they're increased in size to something China-like per the OP).

Those would all be counters.
 
So by definition anything that would allow survival is a counter?
That was a very pointless question to ask then.
I said it was tautological. Multiple times in fact.

"If they don't have a way to survive nukes, they won't survive nukes" isn't an argument, it's a fact via being tautological.
I don't think I'm at fault, when I already said it was impossible.
Do you always make up your own definitions when arguing, or is it something I've done that merits me special derision?
See above.
 
And because the DND spells themselves just call them gems, and nothing in the specific setting I used ever had mad, something like magical mass scale 3d printing.
(Also the fact that the gems have to have a set cost, gets real fucking weird real fast with economics and magical production)

If anything, I think that makes it less likely they'd care about mines? I mean, if you're an even moderately powerful wizard, why would you bother with a traditional mine, and miners you have to pay, when you could just summon an earth elemental or something that can get you whatever precious gems you might want? Alternatively, if you're skilled in planar travel, you can just go somewhere like the plane of earth or the plane of gems and get unlimited quantities of whatever you need.

Also, yeah, economics in D&D make no sense and fundamentally do not work, but that's just another point in favor of not taking the designer's word about demographics as gospel.

Given that their is probably under 20 even mid level mages (95% of all mages are below level 6) and most people would not be anywhere near as optomized as PC's I wouldn't worry about it as much, and some mages not being hit by the material componet thing as much isn't an issue given that many still would be. Also given this is a singular country most splat books, races and feats are off the table. Also most people are NPC classes not PC classes which further reduces the variety.

I'd like you to keep in mind, the vast majority of the people in DnD are one house cat scartch away from dying, literally.

A) The cannon demographics make no sense and do not line up with the stories we see. They're not worth using as a baseline.

B) Fantasy worlds aren't about winning via quantity. Armies are, at best, meant for holding territory or, maybe, local pest control. The actually important stuff gets done by a small handful of exceptionally powerful individuals. So, if you're contention is there are 20 somewhat powerful wizards, what you are saying is they have 19 more than they need to cause problems.

If I don't define the magic setting, there is no B.
I'm not putting the B in.
Therefore I am making no argument about B.
In fact you the check list does not need to include anything about B at all.

You are very explicitly making arguments and statements about which worlds you think would win, not objective observations. That you want to term them as tools does not change the fact that they are arguments.

WW2 nukes were not used as a final response they were used as the first response to save lives (on one side) once they could be.
In that mind set a day 1 full scale nuclear anihlation of the newly appeared fantasy nation is fitting, why should we send our infantry to die?

That is a very ahistorical take and ignores pretty much everything else that happened in that theater, both before and after the bombings.

If you wish to show me a fantasy nation that can withstand roughly 4000 nuclear weapon and thousands of other ICBMs with no warning and no counter and then still win the war go ahead and do so. (And if they can, that is it's own counter anyway)

By the same token, I could say there's no way a modern nation could survive the very sky literally falling on them as a horizon spanning spider crawls through a crack in reality and drives every mortal that witnesses it insane. (No, the scene I'm describing did not involve a god. It was a single Duke who promptly got murdered by the revolution he was trying to suppress.) Or how about a constant rain of meteors turning the skies read as they bombard major cities (and no, the US could not easily swat them out of the sky)? Maybe something more classic? A rift opening up in the sky and a city sized column of fire and/or magma pouring down on, well, a city?

Obviously, the US can't survive that kind of assault and there's basically nothing they could do to meaningfully mitigate it, so clearly that means the US loses? Of course, none of that touches on the opposing nations ability to stop nukes after they're in flight, but that's kind of the point: your binary "tools" aren't particularly good tools.

If it's a dimensional portal scenario, then I would figure that modern forces would be more willing to use nukes, as all of the damage and fallout would be contained on the other side and not damage their own Earth. But of course that means they would first have to transport the components for the missiles and launchers through the portal and then assemble them on the other side, which kind of precludes an immediate first strike.

Apparently, they're both on the same world and the magical nation just appeared there. So ... yeah. Not sure how that scenario is supposed to work.

Except, somewhat ironically, Mundus Magicus from Negima could work, since they're in a sort-of parallel layer of the world and could theoretically be forced back onto the underlying one. Under those conditions, I'd give the contest to Mundus Magicus, fairly handily, since they have both insanely powerful individuals and functional armies with better magi-tech gear then the US could field. This remains true even if you take the truly broken stuff off the field, like Keys of the Life Maker or Fate Avernus.

It might be possible to drill underground and place shaped charge nuclear warheads if they know where to dig, though.

Maybe, but I'm not sure how useful that would be. Sure, the nuke would be pretty destructive, in its immediate vicinity, but there's also going to be a lot more stuff in the way to soak up the blast and any radiation. You're also not going to get any convection or weather patterns making the results worse. Overall, I suspect you'd have to drill pretty close to something sensitive in order for the nuke to be effective and that sounds like an invitation for the Drow to steal your nuke.
 
You are very explicitly making arguments and statements about which worlds you think would win, not objective observations. That you want to term them as tools does not change the fact that they are arguments.
Yes I made an argument as example of how I would use the tool.

I disagree about the nukes, but the really important thing is it doesn't even matter, ICBMs can carry traditional payloads as well.

I would also point out any "Singular Mage" arguments fail to get towards the war the OP wanted, and Also are essentially the same as "God did it" if a single protagonist with massive massive amounts of plot armor can solo the whole US they are effectively a god anyway and would be stronger than many gods in other settings.

Also I think it's bad faith to keep a nebulous "Some super mage" without anyone ever saying a specific DND mage that can do it, then ignoring the RPG rules and even the words of lead DnD designers.

It's word of god, that less than 5% of mages are above 5th level in the "Default Dnd Setting".
 
I would also point out any "Singular Mage" arguments fail to get towards the war the OP wanted, and Also are essentially the same as "God did it" if a single protagonist with massive massive amounts of plot armor can solo the whole US they are effectively a god anyway and would be stronger than many gods in other settings.

The "singular mage" thing is a fundamental staple of traditional fantasy. If you can't conscience heroic units and a societal, military, and geopolitical system premised on them, then you're either asking about how medieval Europe beats the modern US army, which isn't particularly interesting, or you're asking about something that is very different from a traditional fantasy setting, in which case the answer will depend entirely on the world building.

We're using "some nebulous mage" because nothing concrete about the setting has been established, so there are no real characters to name. Also, there tend to be multiple versions of prominent D&D characters and the specifics of how any one might solve the problem are a bit irrelevant compared to the fact that there are characters who could have solutions, particularly when the thread is as vague and generalized as this one insists on being.

However, if you really want a name, let's go with Elminster, a fairly well known figure who has been known to help the Lords of Water Deep, which the US might decide to attack, for some reason. In 3e he was a level 24 Wizard, level 5 Archmage, Level 3 Cleric, level 2 Rogue, and level 1 Fighter. He's also good friends with Mordenkainen, who was "just" a level 27 Wizard in 3e. Which brings up a rather important flaw with the whole "there are very few of them" argument. Powerful characters in these settings tend to associate with other, similarly powerful, characters. So where you find one, you tend to find a cluster. The more benevolent ones also tend to go out of their way to help the locals, so they're less likely to stay out of it than, say, an actual deity.

Finally, none of the scenarios I listed involved "gods" or characters that would be considered undefeatable in their setting. They also didn't involve plot armor. Please don't confuse magical defenses with plot armor.

Also I think it's bad faith to keep a nebulous "Some super mage" without anyone ever saying a specific DND mage that can do it, then ignoring the RPG rules and even the words of lead DnD designers.

You seem to be the only one here who's ignoring the rules of D&D, or at least the ones you don't like and their implications. Well, you and the designers of D&D, which is why they tend to get ignored when they start talking about population numbers and economics; they're just not very good at grasping scale or statistics.

It's word of god, that less than 5% of mages are above 5th level in the "Default Dnd Setting".

I'll care what "Word of God" says when we properly establish a setting and the "Word of God" in question starts producing actually coherent results that align with what we see.
 
I'll care what "Word of God" says when we properly establish a setting and the "Word of God" in question starts producing actually coherent results that align with what we see.
Well given I was specific with the setting, that is an admission you didn't read my posts and just want to argue.
So I'm done.

I did talk about how to make the war if anyone actually cares, (colonialism and urban combat)
 
"Word of God" only matters when talking about specific settings, and D&D in particular is barely a setting (by design; you're supposed to make your own). I have known many a D&D campaign where magic was exceedingly rare and required specialized training, where our PCs were unique magical savants. I've known others where character classes are everywhere. Going more specific than that takes you out of the realm of the OP's scenario.

Not that it matters how many mages there are; a singular high level D&D character can shake the foundations of reality itself. They are *not* to be underestimated even if there's only one or two of them at any given time (and there will be more).
 
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Thing about the "extremely few mages get to high level" is that, there are tons of mages.
Like, thousands, if not millions, in the generic DnD fantasy world at any given time.
So even "extremely few" starts to add up.
And the high level mages tend to stick around, and more powerful they become, longer they remain, so the high level wizards, accumulate, over time.
 
Thing about the "extremely few mages get to high level" is that, there are tons of mages.
Like, thousands, if not millions, in the generic DnD fantasy world at any given time.
So even "extremely few" starts to add up.
And the high level mages tend to stick around, and more powerful they become, longer they remain, so the high level wizards, accumulate, over time.

So using the standard Dnd 3.5 Setting The forgotten realms, with source books and the head author. I got the following number.


Dnd Lore book says 1% of the population is magic in TFR
Ed Greenwood on twitter confirmed less than 5% of Wizards can cast above second level spells.

Waterdeep a major city had a population of 130K which means 1300 mages
And of them only 65 can cast above a second level spell. Presumably of most of those it's only third level.


Waterdeep is the equivalent to LA or new york.
The OP also limited to 1 China sized country not the whole planet.

Also most people (including casters are NPC classes)
They are far more limited in source material than PCs (including classes, equipment, spells, feat)


So, a few hundred mages that can cast over 2nd level spells in a country from TFR.
Of those few hundred I'd be willing to be it's a bell curve that is MASSIVELY weighted towards the lower end.

Leaving what 100 or so "High level mages" Many of which are NPC classes, don't have the right spells for the job, are dedicated crafters, or are otherwise not the type of mages you need/want.


Not to mention that to my knowledge all of them still die to artillery.

Contingency doesn't stop one shot kills.
AC doesn't stop AOEs
Energy resistance doesn't apply to concussive force.
Spell resistance doesn't apply
Given time they could teleport away but an ICBM is to fast for any non-quickened spell. (which limits most even high level mages to 4 spell levels lower than their normal cap so to low to matter?) It's also still probably to fast for quicken spell.

Like, this whole argument only exists if a mage can survive artillery or bombings and, I don't think they can.
Explosions should probably do 3 different damage types as non-magic Aoe's and I can't think of any good way most wizards could survive this.

A lich might, but not if their soul box is one shot with the rest of the city.
 
Explosions should probably do 3 different damage types as non-magic Aoe's and I can't think of any good way most wizards could survive this.
Eh, if they see it coming (you can probably assume the possibility of that is there, a citykiller would have every priest or divination caster in the joint twigging out), rope trick is pretty low level, innit? Rope trick could dodge a nuke/ICBM strike, far as I'm aware :V
 
Eh, if they see it coming (you can probably assume the possibility of that is there, a citykiller would have every priest or divination caster in the joint twigging out), rope trick is pretty low level, innit? Rope trick could dodge a nuke/ICBM strike, far as I'm aware :V
Thank you for providing at least an answer that might work.
I think it's far to situational to reliably say a specific super wizard would do it in time.
(Can't bring bags of holding into it and it's weird spell that doesn't serve to seem a lot of purpose 99% of the time, spell slots, are a limited resource after all.)

I'm not sure you can see an ICBM coming, divination is well not great about that type of thing, and they fly very very fast, and even then it's such an out of context problem you wouldn't know to cast that specific spell. Someone, or a few might might get lucky but yeah it's a real crap shot.
 
So using the standard Dnd 3.5 Setting The forgotten realms,
You've already left the scope provided by the OP.

Imagine a story with the reverse mindset of GATE, where the Fantasy kingdom has to fight and beat the US. A general framework is as follows:

Alright, assume a generic fantasy kingdom. Pick from any generic group of fantasy tropes- you know, the sorts DnD popularised, with swords and magic and all- and put them together to form a nation around the size of China or Europe. Point is, it's pretty big. Mostly for the reason that this will at least allow them to last long by sheer mass and prevent instant defeat.
Now, have a nation state with equivalent armed forces, economy, and size as the good ol' US of A, if not the US itself, attack it. Make them the villain or heroes, whatever, it does not really matter.

What does matter, dear writer, is that you now have to figure out a way for these two groups to have an even fight- possibly even ending with the Fantasy Kingdom winning. It may sound impossible, especially to someone who knows how far modern electronic systems and manufacturing has come, or who had the misfortune to read GATE, but that's what it is.

How can it be done? Try not to take cheatcodes like Omnipotent gods or godlike entities flicking their fingers, please. That is not fun. What I want is that it is two armies that clash together, with the fantasy one winning. Without, of course, the US holding back any more than it did during the Second World War.
 
So using the standard Dnd 3.5 Setting The forgotten realms, with source books and the head author. I got the following number.





Waterdeep is the equivalent to LA or new york.
The OP also limited to 1 China sized country not the whole planet.

Also most people (including casters are NPC classes)
They are far more limited in source material than PCs (including classes, equipment, spells, feat)


So, a few hundred mages that can cast over 2nd level spells in a country from TFR.
Of those few hundred I'd be willing to be it's a bell curve that is MASSIVELY weighted towards the lower end.

Leaving what 100 or so "High level mages" Many of which are NPC classes, don't have the right spells for the job, are dedicated crafters, or are otherwise not the type of mages you need/want.


Not to mention that to my knowledge all of them still die to artillery.

Contingency doesn't stop one shot kills.
AC doesn't stop AOEs
Energy resistance doesn't apply to concussive force.
Spell resistance doesn't apply
Given time they could teleport away but an ICBM is to fast for any non-quickened spell. (which limits most even high level mages to 4 spell levels lower than their normal cap so to low to matter?) It's also still probably to fast for quicken spell.

Like, this whole argument only exists if a mage can survive artillery or bombings and, I don't think they can.
Explosions should probably do 3 different damage types as non-magic Aoe's and I can't think of any good way most wizards could survive this.

A lich might, but not if their soul box is one shot with the rest of the city.
Ummm contingency can in fact stop literally anything, depending on the wording and the spell used, especially considering that some potential spells include outright chronomancy.
 
So using the standard Dnd 3.5 Setting The forgotten realms, with source books and the head author. I got the following number.





Waterdeep is the equivalent to LA or new york.
The OP also limited to 1 China sized country not the whole planet.

Also most people (including casters are NPC classes)
They are far more limited in source material than PCs (including classes, equipment, spells, feat)


So, a few hundred mages that can cast over 2nd level spells in a country from TFR.
Of those few hundred I'd be willing to be it's a bell curve that is MASSIVELY weighted towards the lower end.

Leaving what 100 or so "High level mages" Many of which are NPC classes, don't have the right spells for the job, are dedicated crafters, or are otherwise not the type of mages you need/want.


Not to mention that to my knowledge all of them still die to artillery.

Contingency doesn't stop one shot kills.
AC doesn't stop AOEs
Energy resistance doesn't apply to concussive force.
Spell resistance doesn't apply
Given time they could teleport away but an ICBM is to fast for any non-quickened spell. (which limits most even high level mages to 4 spell levels lower than their normal cap so to low to matter?) It's also still probably to fast for quicken spell.

Like, this whole argument only exists if a mage can survive artillery or bombings and, I don't think they can.
Explosions should probably do 3 different damage types as non-magic Aoe's and I can't think of any good way most wizards could survive this.

A lich might, but not if their soul box is one shot with the rest of the city.
1. Ed Greenwood is a hack and i don't give a fuck about his statements, what matters is actual stories told, which seem to have much higher amounts of powerful wizards.
2. Waterdeep is a city, and likely to have a far higher concentration of mages to general population (most people do not life in cities).
3. Again, high level mages accumulate, because they do not die easily, if at all, and even death is not much of an inconvenience to epic level wizard.
4. Hiigh level wizards are, presumably, not morons, so they are not going to just march into war with no actual research into enemy capabilities.
 
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Ummm contingency can in fact stop literally anything, depending on the wording and the spell used, especially considering that some potential spells include outright chronomancy.

You can only have one contingency spell.
It's limited to 1/3rd your caster level (and thus max spell level of 6 for 18th level wizards, and 4-5th for most high level wizards)
It has to be worded simply or the spell fails.
It has to be a spell that affects your own person. (So resurrection of any sort is out)


Contingency can not "In fact stop literally anything" it's actually a very limited spell.
 
You can only have one contingency spell.
It's limited to 1/3rd your caster level (and thus max spell level of 6 for 18th level wizards, and 4-5th for most high level wizards)
It has to be worded simply or the spell fails.
It has to be a spell that affects your own person. (So resurrection of any sort is out)


Contingency can not "In fact stop literally anything" it's actually a very limited spell.
Again, lore, not game mechanics. Lore mages have dozens to hundreds. We get one scene with Elminster fighting an entire spellbattle against Manshoon with nothing but contingencies since he'd planned the fight so thoroughly. We have another example of a guy who let loose literally hundreds of spells when he died, etc…

Ignore anything from the PHB and go read the novels and the stories from the old sourcebooks.
 
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