The republic was dead. It had been dead a century. There was always going to be a tyrant, and of then, octavian was likely the best.
Historia Civilis
- Thread starter Teen Spirit
- Start date
- Megathread
The republic was dead. It had been dead a century. There was always going to be a tyrant, and of then, octavian was likely the best.
- Location
- The Old Dominion
Cicero family I suppose did manage to get some measure of revenge though given Cicero's son got to announce Anthony's defeat before the senate as well strip him of all his honors and tore down all his statues and Cicero's legacy and reputation has deservedly long outlived not just Mark Anthony but his entire clan.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
There is a further steep decline from Caesar to Octavian, though. Caesar already was a coldblooded sociopath by all accounts, but Octavian was even worse. Like, while Caesar drew up elaborate justification for his actions against the republic, Octavian just up and went and occupied Rome. Twice. And while Caesar kept the institutions of the Republic as decorum, the Second Triumvirate also officially became the lawmaking body. And while Caesar kept social order, the Second Triumvirate started proscriptions. And so on and so forth. Octavian, Marc Antony and Lepidus really were just vultures anymore.
I mean, Octavian realized the mistake of Caesar in that forgiving your enemies just lets them murder you, and, once he actually won, he proved to be a prosperous ruler that finally ended the decades of civil war for a few generations.
I'm not sure maintaining the pageantry of a republic adds anything to the roman state.
- Location
- USA
The way he went about it was absolutely horrific, though. Proscriptions are horrible, especially when they're not even used to crush one's enemies but to just murder rich people so you can steal their money. And there was no guarantee that this would actually work - Sulla did the same damn thing, but one generation later we have Caesar crossing the Rubicon.
Octavian's purge really only worked as well as they did because Rome, as a society, was so utterly exhausted after decades of ceaseless political and social upheaval that it just couldn't muster a counter-response to an authoritarian takeover. That this takeover had to necessarily include what amounts to a campaign of indiscriminate murder is not necessarily totally true - but history is history and we'll never know how the Republic would have fared otherwise.
Sulla was also a staunch republican that really was doing all his horrible shit with the idea of strengthening the republic (against the dirty underclass that had been bringing it down). So, yeah, his dictatorship sort of failed because the republic was already dead, he could not revive it, no matter how many "upjumped proles" he killed.
There's a point at with, sadly, one person concentrating power in their hands is better than 100 people concentrating power collectively and then squabbling endlessly for it.
Also, proscriptions are not uncommon in the republic.
- Location
- The Old Dominion
It should also be noted Octavian kept the senate around though(indeed the senate of Rome managed to survive into the seventh century AD outlasting the western half of the empire which fell part during the course of the fifth century) and at least pretended to republican virtue and norms as did his successors for the most part for the next several centuries.
Even excluding that before Sulla Proscriptions were simply public advertisements or notices signifying property or goods for sale there was only two mass proscriptions in pre-imperial roman history, Sulla's proscription in 82 BC which badly traumatized Caesar and others of his generation and the proscription of 43 BC.
Even excluding that before Sulla Proscriptions were simply public advertisements or notices signifying property or goods for sale there was only two mass proscriptions in pre-imperial roman history, Sulla's proscription in 82 BC which badly traumatized Caesar and others of his generation and the proscription of 43 BC.
- Location
- USA
Proscriptions on the scale and for the purpose that Sulla did, though, was absolutely without precedent. It was so intense and reached so far into Roman society that it made even Caesar super wary of coming anywhere close to anything like it.
Also, Sulla also proscribed a bunch of rich people who did nothing wrong just so he could steal their property(which was also a super new development from this horrible era of Republican history) - he just wasn't as brazen about it as the Triumvers were, and it was less personal greed and more a desire to keep the Roman state solvent by any means necessary.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
It wasn't just "not forgiving his enemies", though. It was also "blatantly enriching himself by plundering everyone" and "winning power by occupying the capital."
I mean, as history went, Octavian managed to put the genie back into the bottle: He managed to win out against everyone else, and build up a stable conservative dictatorship, where he and his chosen heir ruled without question - and not whoever had command of the armies at the time. But that was only because he so decisively won in the end. His actions could as well have further continued and escalated the cycle of civil wars, with whoever had command of armies reaching for absolute power - as would generations later happen in the Empire.
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Mechasaurian
Big Bossu
- Location
- Lost among fields of history
- Pronouns
- They/Them
That was genuinely hilarious to watch.
I did not think I would find myself rooting for the corrupt monarch who brought civil war on his country through stubborn attempts to grab absolute power for himself, twice.I liked the part where he said "It is for the liberties of the people of England that I stand (so give me absolute power). Yes, Charles was actually able to position himself as the defender of justice and liberty. Amazing.
Charles seems to have had a solid plan: refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of the Court (which put them in a bind because they were stuck in a ridiculous legal catch-22 of all laws needing to come from the King), implicitly argue about the worrying precedent that may be set by a newly invented court running roughshod over established means, and argue to be tried before Parliament instead (where he would have the advantage). In short, the court had the bad luck to be against a King with an understanding of the judicial system and a brain.
He got pretty far, because Bradshaw - the one guy who was willing to sit as President of the tribunal was...not exactly a village idiot, but somewhat odd in their political beliefs (he'd be right at home among 21st century anti-monarchists, funnily enough) and very, very prone to losing his cool.
As it was, the court was apparently able to just shout Charles down, send him away, and try him in absentia through the legitimising principle of "we have a bigger army than you." So there's no way I'm seeing for him to have come out on top.
EDIT: Actually, I'll rescind that last paragraph - it's been a few days since I watched the video and I forgot that the court initially wanted to reduce the monarch's authority rather than outright execute him.
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Zimmerwald1915
Revolutionary Defeatist
- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Well, his top did come out in the end, that's something.
- Location
- The Old Dominion
As I recall this was after there was a military coup d'etat because the new model army didn't like the deal that parliament and Charles had reached to end the civil war so the military decided to purge parliament until the remains, the rump parliament was willing to throw out the deal and instead put the king on trial so they could lop his head off.
Bronze Age Collapse
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Not his normal area but I'm a huge nerd for the Bronze Age so I'm quite interested
I mean, yes, but those are things Octavian did that Caesar did as well. One of the differences is how brutal Octavian was against his enemies once they were defeated.
And ultimately, history did fall out the way it did and the hypothetical that it might not have is kind of limited.
Octavian was not some sort of outlier of roman badness forged in the fires of war. Roman society just really sucked. So I'm not gonna be down on octavian for specifically sucking. He was horribly conservative and oppressive, but, like, that's the Senate yo. It's not long the rule of rich old men was a beacon of ancient progressive values. Rome was a corrupt and conservative and oppressive society under the republic. At least Octavian managed to put a pause on some of the killing from the repeated civil wars. But Rome remained a looter economy and he kept up the looting of other peoples.
The Battle of Philippi (42 B.C.E.)
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- He/Him
Tactics aren't the same without Caesar.
Zimmerwald1915
Revolutionary Defeatist
- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Eh, more often than not, Caesar's tactics amounted to "build a wall." Or two. Or for several kilometers.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Or "Wait long enough to have luck". Repeatedly. That man had just too much luck.
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- He/Him
I do like how the women were basically able to win against the Triumvirate through peer pressure. Women's power in history is too often ignored.
Bullmoose
A True Aristocrat
- Location
- Philadelphia
That and the fact that the sheer amount of troops involved in this battle was sort of absurd for the time. These were larger armies than anything either Caesar or Pompey ever commanded in the field. Those armies had far fewer veteran legionaries and they were led at top by comparatively inexperienced and/or less talented commanders. That's why Philippi was such a mess.
Sextus Pompeius and the Sicilian War (42 to 36 B.C.E.)
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- He/Him
A new video for the new year. Dealing with the aftermath of Philippi
Septentrion
DRM Mapping Project
- Location
- Scotland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
God Octavian sounds like a smart version of Joffrey Baratheon.
Yeah, and I admit I am a bit confused since it feels like such a departure from both earlier and I think later versions of him. I mean I remember reading about him being ruthless and at times even brutal but this cruelty is something I never really noticed/remembered.
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- He/Him
Yeah Octavian sounds like he could be an extremely cruel dickhead.And also intensely unsuited for military matters. Agrippa's back must strain from having to carry him so often
- Location
- USA
I'm also kind of struck by just how huge of a coward Octavian is, especially compared to his great uncle. If Caesar were handling that Sicily situation he'd have taken those two legions and somehow organized them to build a wall around Sextus's army 
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