Halkegenia Online

[linkhyrule5]

I'm finding myself on both sides of this argument .

High levels in a video game really does mean absolute superiority. Kirito's stunt with the mercenaries: he was so much higher level than the people attacking him that they literally could not harm him.

I see no reason why Cardinal wouldn't have transferred that.

(Similarly, top-level characters as line-equivalents are worrying, because... well, they're top level. Match the legends to the legends, the squares to the leaders of the clearers, and leave the top-level common mages (triangles) to the top-level common Fae.)

On the other hand, I think they did fine in this battle. Like TH said, Caramella was caught off-guard and still curbstomped him.

Again: the one thing I'm worried about is the SAO side note being able to compete. They need more than parity for that: they need combat superiority, because they're heavily outnumbered.

@Felix: A twelve foot dragon simply cannot be as maneuverable as a natural-flight human mage. And the mage on top can't turn completely around without falling out of their seat. That means the Fae can hypothetically dodge while the dragoon can't even in theory at some range, which means the Fae have an advantage.

 

[jwolfe_beta]

Again: the one thing I'm worried about is the SAO side note being able to compete. They need more than parity for that: they need combat superiority, because they're heavily outnumbered.

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Remember that these players are not operating at the full potential of their new race. First none of this group can use their wings currently which can greatly increase speed and/or maneuverability even at ground level (as seen by Eugene using them while pulling that flash-step against the man eater).

Second, when the Fae get a breather I bet that they are going to take a close look at their magic and how it can be used now without the game restrictions. Considering that there is 'dark magic' they likely have spells that cause status afflictions like one sees in other video games. If there is a silence/mute chant that prevents magic from being cast it would be a major advantage.

 

[Muramasa]

The comparison of top level SAO to a line mage is off because these people are still just adapting their skills. They have to pretty much relearn what made their character build badass to begin with. Stats however were nerfed to uphold pseudo-realism. I doubt Kirito would have been able to no sell a group of mid-level orange players in this kind of world.

 

[CatOnTheWeb]

An interesting question about relative power levels of fae vs mages would be to compare the Cath Dragons with their local equivalent, considering a more or less average rider (who has the right to ride one of those, so maybe not that average) vs an equaly average knight. There must be a good reason why the Cath are neither considered as too weak to be frontliners in the original game, but neither too powerful.

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Easy, the Cait Syth Dragons have a lot of speed firepower, more so than the average player. However, they are hard to tame and require a high riding skill (that skill was most certainly put in the game) so you can't have large quantities of them. Also, the dragons, as stated before can't maneuver as well as a fae. So really, they're a combination of cavalry and heavy artillery, and the fae are infantry and light artillery.

 

[Shadell]

I'm finding myself on both sides of this argument .

High levels in a video game really does mean absolute superiority. Kirito's stunt with the mercenaries: he was so much higher level than the people attacking him that they literally could not harm him.

I see no reason why Cardinal wouldn't have transferred that.

(Similarly, top-level characters as line-equivalents are worrying, because... well, they're top level. Match the legends to the legends, the squares to the leaders of the clearers, and leave the top-level common mages (triangles) to the top-level common Fae.)

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Remember, these are ALO stats where level isn't that important versus equipment, and skills. Having a high one-handed sword ability doesn't adjust damage, instead letting you equip better gear. Moreover, the SAO players should probably have the same conversions from SAO as Kirito, which means translating skills but getting base starting HP/MP and nothing in magic aside from whatever the race starts with (if anything for the default that they have).

Looking carefully at my status bar, I can tell this world doesn't equate numbers and strength. SAO's agility and strength parameters simply don't exist here, not to mention HP and MP increases are small. Also, as weapon skills increase, the only thing that changes is the number of weapons you can equip, there is no change in attack power. And, of course, SAO's signature Sword Skills, do not exist.
In other words, ALO focuses on the player's natural athletic ability and judgment. In SAO, attacks by lower-leveled opponents won't do too much to lower HP. But this doesn't seem to be the case here."

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(Volume 3, chapter 2)

Kirito's supersonic movement and insta-murder attacks in ALO came more from incredible accuracy and speed of his strikes versus being level 80ish (If I remember right). ALO explicitly bases damage off of four things. Weapon stats, accuracy of the strike, attack speed and armor stats (of the person being hit). Kirito hits with incredible speed and accuracy, thanks to his completely broken reaction speed.

Depending on how this transferred, it seems like either people with better reaction speeds would have better muscles/physical abilities, or the faeries' physical limits are at least partially psychological. The latter especially would have some interesting implications as to how they function.


What the KoB probably do have is various supportish skills like the [<guard]> skill that let Kirito do a barehanded block/weapon grab on an attacking high level enemy right after transferring, pure athletic ability as faeries, and combat experience. Also surprise and the "Oh ----- an elf invasion" reaction going for them when people see them.

Compared with the veteran ALO players who have powerful magic weapons/armor, actual magic and a solid understanding of ALO's rules, the SAO crowd with Asuna doesn't actually seem all that intimidating aside from the absurd skill levels they'll all have. Or did I miss a statement somewhere that their translation into ALO was a bit different from Kirito's?

That said, Kirito does note in the Caliber side story that there are invisible statistics he didn't understand at first such as strength/speed/etc. (Either that or the author just retconned that a bit.)



As for the SAO crowd competing on a macro level, they have a lot of magic advantages that the ZnT crowd doesn't. For example, living in an academy full of magicians, Louise couldn't get Saito healed from the damage incurred by a bunch from a dot mage's golem without ponying up the cash to buy a very expensive reagent. By contrast undine healing magic probably doesn't require any materials if it's intact, and is designed to be fairly spammable for long boss fights. Healing over time effects that are difficult to manage in an MMO might as well be instant compared to having Saito rest in an infirmary overnight while surrounded by high level healers who'd want to help him.



On a more random note, have the less adventurish skills from ALO been addressed at all? For example Asuna's insane cooking or Kirito's 650ish points in fishing?

 

[mistakenot]

On a more random note, have the less adventurish skills from ALO been addressed at all? For example Asuna's insane cooking or Kirito's 650ish points in fishing?

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It was mentioned that blacksmiths and other support characters gained intuitive understanding of their skills upon transitioning. For example, see how Maki patched up Asuna's attire with sewing in Ch 5-5, despite lack of IRL experience.

 

[Muramasa]

Remember, these are ALO stats where level isn't that important versus equipment, and skills. Having a high one-handed sword ability doesn't adjust damage, instead letting you equip better gear. Moreover, the SAO players should probably have the same conversions from SAO as Kirito, which means translating skills but getting base starting HP/MP and nothing in magic aside from whatever the race starts with (if anything for the default that they have).


(Volume 3, chapter 2)

Kirito's supersonic movement and insta-murder attacks in ALO came more from incredible accuracy and speed of his strikes versus being level 80ish (If I remember right). ALO explicitly bases damage off of four things. Weapon stats, accuracy of the strike, attack speed and armor stats (of the person being hit). Kirito hits with incredible speed and accuracy, thanks to his completely broken reaction speed.

Depending on how this transferred, it seems like either people with better reaction speeds would have better muscles/physical abilities, or the faeries' physical limits are at least partially psychological. The latter especially would have some interesting implications as to how they function.


What the KoB probably do have is various supportish skills like the [<guard]> skill that let Kirito do a barehanded block/weapon grab on an attacking high level enemy right after transferring, pure athletic ability as faeries, and combat experience. Also surprise and the "Oh ----- an elf invasion" reaction going for them when people see them.

Compared with the veteran ALO players who have powerful magic weapons/armor, actual magic and a solid understanding of ALO's rules, the SAO crowd with Asuna doesn't actually seem all that intimidating aside from the absurd skill levels they'll all have. Or did I miss a statement somewhere that their translation into ALO was a bit different from Kirito's?

That said, Kirito does note in the Caliber side story that there are invisible statistics he didn't understand at first such as strength/speed/etc. (Either that or the author just retconned that a bit.)



As for the SAO crowd competing on a macro level, they have a lot of magic advantages that the ZnT crowd doesn't. For example, living in an academy full of magicians, Louise couldn't get Saito healed from the damage incurred by a bunch from a dot mage's golem without ponying up the cash to buy a very expensive reagent. By contrast undine healing magic probably doesn't require any materials if it's intact, and is designed to be fairly spammable for long boss fights. Healing over time effects that are difficult to manage in an MMO might as well be instant compared to having Saito rest in an infirmary overnight while surrounded by high level healers who'd want to help him.



On a more random note, have the less adventurish skills from ALO been addressed at all? For example Asuna's insane cooking or Kirito's 650ish points in fishing?

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I'm pretty sure the no stats thing was retconned in a later novel. It's just not tied to simple level grinding.

 

[Shadell]

I'm pretty sure the no stats thing was retconned in a later novel. It's just not tied to simple level grinding.

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The Caliber SS has a bit about hidden stats, which notes that because Kirito as a Spriggan specializes in strength and heavy weapons, he beats out the rest of the party (Including Klein) in strength, but this is largely because Klein as a strength focused Salamander works on using katanas which are a fast weapon versus Kirito's heavy swords. The overall statement isn't exactly clear as to how much this matters overall. IE: Is it a huge difference, or small levels of subtle personalization that you won't notice easily. Given that the stats are hidden and impossible to tweak, in an MMO where pvp is a fairly large factor, I'd hazard to guess that the changes in stats are noticeable but not game-breaking either way, since I have a hard time imagining a scenario where a game that put huge emphasis on completely invisible stats would be successful, especially a game with a fairly large PvP base, which is consistently brought up as a major part of ALO. It's also never mentioned whether Kirito kept such stats from his massively more powerful SAO character.

It's possible that the scope of such changes in ALO might have been limited to things like using heavier gear more easily/for longer and lifting heavy objects versus direct combat boosts. I'm pretty sure the physical stats bit was only ever mentioned in relation to lifting something in the Caliber side story. If so, the physics based rules of Halkegenia would probably play havoc with ALO's combat set-up.

Fairy Dance does specifically make it a minor plot point that grinding isn't a big part of the game (Suguha specifically chooses an MMO that doesn't require a ton of time commitment to be successful versus skill. There's no way, with her club activities, that she could match those who no life ALO and be one of the sylphs' top players otherwise). So either way, it's not like they have max level adjustment bonuses against anyone in the world. Rather their physical health is at the lowest level for faeries (which is probably still superhuman).

It was mentioned that blacksmiths and other support characters gained intuitive understanding of their skills upon transitioning. For example, see how Maki patched up Asuna's attire with sewing in Ch 5-5, despite lack of IRL experience.

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Ah, missed that. Thanks.

 

[CatOnTheWeb]

I was pretty sure Kirito and many others in SAO were supposedly level 100 by the time Kirito had his duel with Kayaba, the bosses were just that hardcore. I forget where the info is but I'm pretty sure you can find it, or maybe I was just looking at what level Kirito had in the anime during his duel, I'm pretty sure that said 100 there. I'll go back and check

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they weren't level hundred. They kept a good 6-8 level margin between their levels and what floor they were on, so they were in their mid to low eighties.

 

[CatOnTheWeb]

100 floors? pokemon max level=100?

 

[Triggerhappy]

I believe what NAF said is correct. Though Kirito and some of the other front line players had at least one mastered skill, none of them had reached level 100.

 

[Triggerhappy]

Hey Trigger.
How well did the [<Battle Healing]> translate over?
Or did it not translate at all?

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It translated to an extent, but it's not a wolverine healing factor or anything.

 

[Muramasa]

Hey Trigger.
How well did the [<Battle Healing]> translate over?
Or did it not translate at all?

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Actually, I have a complaint to make. Why was battle healing so inconsistant in SAO? Kuradeel shouldn't have been able to give Kirito a 'slow' death if battle healing was active. It also would have made suspicions about Heath Cliff a lot less likely.

 

[LockedKeye]

Actually, I have a complaint to make. Why was battle healing so inconsistant in SAO? Kuradeel shouldn't have been able to give Kirito a 'slow' death if battle healing was active. It also would have made suspicions about Heath Cliff a lot less likely.

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Not quite. There was a big difference between Kuradeel and the bandits. Honestly, the bandits were fairly pathetic.

 

[GeshronTyler]

I'm joining in with the general consensus, that the latest snippet does a good job of developing Asuna and the 300's storyline further, and that the raid on the supply convoy was well portrayed. I do think that telling the defeated foe who they were defeated by is somewhat unwise. Understandable, from Asuna's viewpoint, to keeping morale up and building Esprit de Corps after the recent trauma. I do think it seems "natural" for Asuna to have made the decision to spread the word about the KoB. Unfortunately, Reconquista will very likely assign them a higher priority/threat rating to be dealt with now. A low priority supply convoy raided in the rear areas, guarded by whatever local commoner militia they could scrape together, and 3 3rd-rate mages? Annoying, but nothing out of the ordinary, and any superhuman/mage talents the attackers supposedly had were probably just excuses to cover asses. The same convoy, raided by a group that boldly proclaims itself "The Knights of Blood"- that sounds a bit more problematic- might be some Royalist Hold-outs. Best send a trouble-shooter...

Some general comments on combat proficiency in regards to the Fae/SAOvivers- one trait I would expect practically all former SAO Frontliners/Clearers to posses is that of a high degree of adaptibility and tactical accumen in a combat situation. Especially prevalent for Asuna and the Shin KoB, is also being able to deal with AoE and direct non-weapon attacks. There may not have been any "magic" in SAO, but the mobs and Bosses most definitely had things like AoE wind attacks (dragons), poison spitting, various forms of breath attacks. In essence, a lot of the same sort of attacks they might face from a mage. Earth mages might be the most surprising, and difficult to adjust for I imagine.

 

[GeshronTyler]

The subject of field mobs/bosses and if Cardinal would continue to "spawn" them has come up a number of times. I strongly support the idea that the mobs that represented animal and plantlife of one sort or another have now been left to survive by their own methods of reproduction. I do understand the argument put forth by others, that Cardinal, in it's guise as the controlling "intelligence" of ALO, was directly responsible for regulating the "spawning" of the mobs/bosses. The argument further supposes that Cardinal could be said to be in "suspended" mode, and that when "woken up" by reaching the "Main Console" at the top the Tree, that mob spawning would resume as in the game.

I can't help but feel that any VRMMORPG abstractions, like mobs/bosses spawning spontaneously according to some flag or schedule are out of place in this new world that has been created. I do have an idea that could allow for a continuous repopulation of mobs, without blatant "game mechanics". What if the Tree were to seed spores from it's branches, that would germinate eventually into various kinds of mobs? That way the area around the Tree would always have a measure of danger, that still could be patrolled by the Fae and Tristanians, and usefull components derived from the mobs wouldn't run out.

Eventually, assuming that a greater/finer control over Cardinal becomes possible, this could be adjusted to levels of an acceptable saturation.

 

[Quickshot0]

I see people still have different ideas on what the exact levels of people like Asuna and Kirito are, as well as their skills. So I'll try and post them here from the Material Editions info, this might be of some use to the author as well, as it turns out Asuna has a Sewing skill.


Kirito

Level : 96

Skills :

One-handed Sword (1000)
Dual Blades (1000)
Blade Throwing (967)
Parry (1000)
Battle Healing (944)
Searching (1000)
Tracking (963)
Hiding (1000)
Night Vision (908)
Extended Weight Limit (949)
Sprint (870)
Fishing (604)​

​

Asuna

Level : 94

Skills :

One-handed Rapier (1000)
Two-handed Assault Spear (590)
Light Metal Equipment (1000)
Heavy Metal Equipment (678)
Parry (917)
Battle Healing (877)
Emergency Recovery (968)
Acrobatics(909)
Sprint (852)
Cooking (1000)
Sewing (211)​

​

And in case Silica shows up with her SAO stats

Silica

Level : 62

Skills :

One-handed Short Sword (710)
Light Metal Equipment (644)
Familiar Recovery (681)
Familiar Communication (597)
Acrobatics (623)
Musical Instrument (749)
Sewing (606)
Cooking (560)​

 

[Quickshot0]

The one I really wonder most about still having her old skill levels though, is Lisbeth, mostly because she'd pretty much would be the most skilled Blacksmith by far then. She was a bit of a workaholic with the blacksmithing after all, up to and including skipping sleep at times. And despite that she still hadn't maxed out the various skills for it at that..

Lisbeth

Level : 79

Skills :

One-handed War Hammer (615)
Light Metal Equipment (529)
Slash Weapon Forging (923)
Thrust Weapon Forging (912)
Blunt Weapon Forging (830)
Light Metal Armor Forging (846)
Heavy Metal Armor Forging (784)
Metal Equipment Repairing (909)
Metal Refining (877)​

​

​

It's hard to imagine anyone in ALO could be nearly as far really, though maybe some specialised in just one or two skills to the exclusion of others. That would allow them to get quite far skill wise, unlike Lisbeth who went for mastery in many.

 

[CatOnTheWeb]

its kinda strange actually, you would think sprint would be the skill you level the fastest (run everywhere ect) but nobody seems to have it maxed.

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An easy explanation is that most other skills scale with difficulty, the higher the lake's fishing level, the more progress you make with fishing, for example. Sprint, on the other hand, flat lines, it only increases for so much for distance covered, so it has a steady progress rate while the others have exponential. So, over time, it would become harder to level sprinting than it would be to level a craft or weapon skill.

 

[Suryn]

IIRC, Kirito was the highest level player in the entire game at something like 95 or so. What NAF mentions is what was considered the absolute minimum level to be on a floor was floor# + 10.

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That quote was about the midlevel players not actually trying to clear the game, but to have fun (like Lizbeth and Silicia) not front line clearers (just was rereading LN 2 wear that bit actually is mentioned)

 

[CatOnTheWeb]

That quote was about the midlevel players not actually trying to clear the game, but to have fun (like Lizbeth and Silicia) not front line clearers (just was rereading LN 2 wear that bit actually is mentioned)

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It wasn't so much them having fun as earning a living, really. They needed a means to survive, and weren't willing to just squat inside the Starting City.

 

[lifelink]

Joseph might have a place for him if they ever met.

 

[Baughn]

Some examples please? (Of skills that Cardinal couldn't have grabbed from the minds of Halkeginians or other Earthlings)

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It's an inconvenient thing to be asked, because we don't have the skill lists for the kind of characters most likely to run afoul of this. Some of the ones we do might still be beyond what can be located locally, e.g. basically everything that's at or close to 1000.

I'm pretty sure we heard about smiths gaining the skills required to make ALO-style magic items, though. Those simply don't exist on Halkeginia.

 

[Filraen]

It's an inconvenient thing to be asked, because we don't have the skill lists for the kind of characters most likely to run afoul of this. Some of the ones we do might still be beyond what can be located locally, e.g. basically everything that's at or close to 1000.

I'm pretty sure we heard about smiths gaining the skills required to make ALO-style magic items, though. Those simply don't exist on Halkeginia.

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Please don't strawman on this because I think the question is interesting. Also, this isn't about the characters or the skill level (at least not mainly) but the skill itself or what does it do.

 

[The Sandman]

Just caught up after some time away from this thread, so one thought I had on the "can Sheffield ruin everything forever" debate a few pages back: an attempt to directly interface with and take over Cardinal would be a great way to wake up Kayaba, and I don't think the Myoznithoweveritsspelled powers do squat to stop a ghost from possessing you.