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Halkegenia Online Thread 6 - //"Pixies!"\\

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kojiro kakita said:
Not necessarily true. Central government spending is more of a 17th and 18th century invention. Up till that point, the investors and capitalists would be the local noble or whatever merchant is rich enough to back the project. Capital investments unless heading to military use would be more innovative than not.

Another problem with increasing factories or other means or production too quickly is again inflation or structural unemployment. For example let us look at the introduction of new mechanical reapers. Yes they will allow for the farmers in Tristan to produce more crop per square acre of land and or hour of work. Presume the number of man hours and acreage stays the same you have more wheat on the market while demand stays the same. You now drive down the price of wheat. While this means more people are able to eat, they the producers have less money to spend........
Actually forgot to factor increase in population with the Faeries. Demand has increased so supply increase means that prices would most likely stay the same.
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The Reapers aren't that big a deal.

What they do is help with the harvest, massively reducing the amount of labour required in that particular stage of food production. The wheat still needs to be seperated, dried and processed, all of which are labour intensive steps without mechanical aid (except the drying, air drying is cheap and easy. Especially with Fire Mages around.)

It also won't help with the planting of crops, fertilization, combating pests and diseases and so on. The only increase in production is from the reduced losses due to weather (wheat has to be fairly dry when harvested and too much water might end up killing/rotting it in the end).

Then there's the foreign markt where the surplus can be offloaded. Tristains farmers just got a lot more competitive and can undercut the prices of other nations, so the unemployment will likely hit other countries until those levy taxes on importet grain.



To improve the other areas will take a lot of time. Creating a planting machine is probably the next step. It's mechanically fairly simple. The sticking points will be synthetic fertilizer and chemicals. Both require a complex industry to produce in significant quantities.

A bit more short term is that they teach the Tristanians about genetics and let them breed superior crops.



There are even more limitations if you consider the material requirements for the new machines. Iron has to be mined. Even with Earthmages it is likely difficult. Processing it will be easy after the Bessemers are finished, but those still need Iron ore to run.
 
kojiro kakita said:
God the businessman in me cringes at having anything that is a one cast stasis spell. All goods become one item only sale (no need for replacements) and more importantly, no tax breaks for depreciation
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I'd just like to say that based on this post I despise you. So very very much. That is all.

As to the overall industrialisation and ignoring the pressing need to grab someone with a more historical knowledge base to keep this from ending up like real world industrial revolutions (massive casualties, long term negative societal changes, the ball of pollution being knocked down the slope and so forth) did. It feels like you guys are trying too hard to impose real world events and maybe ignoring a lot of the magic.

Fertiliser for instance. We know that earth mages and Pixies can both return nutrients to the soil. Pixies apparently far better than most mages. This seems like a much more efficient method and has few if any of the serious downsides to industrial fertilisers. Given what we know about Puca magic, is their anyway to contain and distribute this spell in the same way? Failing that it still seems likely that the Pixies nature would drive them to have few problems towards fertilising the personally magical way in any case.

Hyuuga dismissing the potential of lots of Dark Amalgam seems to fit with someone who is dismissive of magic and wants to grab at her real world stuff, but it's still stupid. That stuff is plainly stronger than any real material, the potential of it is thus enormous.

Also pixies are far more immediately symbiotic to their environment than humans are. This may present a serious road block (not that I object myself) to any industrialisation that produces a lot of waste products and so forth. Though again, the Fae come from a society that takes environmentally friendly tech very seriously so that may not be something they'd go with anyway.
I mean even the most obsessive engineer has to look at guys like Woesette and realise that they are exactly the kind of "screw the future, I'll be dead" people who would make caution a necessity. Production without understanding that a planet has limited resources is very much a Pandora's Jar, especially given a society still firmly in the religious fervour that encourages thinking that the world has endless resources specifically placed for humans to used.
 
Anzer'ke said:
I'd just like to say that based on this post I despise you. So very very much. That is all.

As to the overall industrialisation and ignoring the pressing need to grab someone with a more historical knowledge base to keep this from ending up like real world industrial revolutions (massive casualties, long term negative societal changes, the ball of pollution being knocked down the slope and so forth) did. It feels like you guys are trying too hard to impose real world events and maybe ignoring a lot of the magic.

Fertiliser for instance. We know that earth mages and Pixies can both return nutrients to the soil. Pixies apparently far better than most mages. This seems like a much more efficient method and has few if any of the serious downsides to industrial fertilisers. Given what we know about Puca magic, is their anyway to contain and distribute this spell in the same way? Failing that it still seems likely that the Pixies nature would drive them to have few problems towards fertilising the personally magical way in any case.

Hyuuga dismissing the potential of lots of Dark Amalgam seems to fit with someone who is dismissive of magic and wants to grab at her real world stuff, but it's still stupid. That stuff is plainly stronger than any real material, the potential of it is thus enormous.

Also pixies are far more immediately symbiotic to their environment than humans are. This may present a serious road block (not that I object myself) to any industrialisation that produces a lot of waste products and so forth. Though again, the Fae come from a society that takes environmentally friendly tech very seriously so that may not be something they'd go with anyway.
I mean even the most obsessive engineer has to look at guys like Woesette and realise that they are exactly the kind of "screw the future, I'll be dead" people who would make caution a necessity. Production without understanding that a planet has limited resources is very much a Pandora's Jar, especially given a society still firmly in the religious fervour that encourages thinking that the world has endless resources specifically placed for humans to used.
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I think the focus on the technological side in-story has more to do with the PoV character than what'll actually happen. Once TRIST gets the ball rolling and Rose and Colbert show up it'll start to take a more balanced approach.

Other than that, agreed on all counts.
 
Anzer'ke said:
Hyuuga dismissing the potential of lots of Dark Amalgam seems to fit with someone who is dismissive of magic and wants to grab at her real world stuff, but it's still stupid.
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The piece really didn't give the impression that Hyuuga dismissed Dark Amalgam outright. Hell, the fact that she even thought of it in the first place means that the possibility was present in her mind. What she didn't do was immediately jump at the opportunity because as the piece states, "there was no time for that right now". Basically, not counting the chickens before they lay their eggs.

If they do reach a point where such methods are possible, then she and the other craft-minded Fae would likely jump at the chance to mass produce Dark Amalgam alloys for their industrial needs. Hell, if they can manufacture Dark Amalgam, they can probably skip to production of stuff like turbines and other tech requiring high-strength metallurgy.
Anzer'ke said:
Though again, the Fae come from a society that takes environmentally friendly tech very seriously so that may not be something they'd go with anyway.

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This is a point that I feel needs to be addressed for any technological advancement introduced by the Fae. The Phantom Bullet arc makes a passing remark on how electric vehicles are common in Kirito's time, which means that whenever possible, the Fae might want to introduce tech that was as environmentally friendly as possible ASAP, once they can get past the steam hurdle.
 
LGear said:
This is a point that I feel needs to be addressed for any technological advancement introduced by the Fae. The Phantom Bullet arc makes a passing remark on how electric vehicles are common in Kirito's time, which means that whenever possible, the Fae might want to introduce tech that was as environmentally friendly as possible ASAP, once they can get past the steam hurdle.
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One of the things that really interests me, given that they're generally pretty nice and egalitarian, is the idea of an industrial revolution, not only with magic and attempts at avoiding the pitfalls.

But with the largest driving force actually giving a toss about the common people in all of it. If nothing else that one fact alone pretty much guarantees a totally different progression to the real world one. I cannot see the Fae being okay with becoming/enabling slum lords and even more so I cannot see them being okay with the behaviour of the early so called "captains of industry" with all the shit they pulled. Yay for no poorhouses!

I guess the acceleration of advancement that they're going for has a similar effect though, especially when they start off with end point medical knowledge.

"No Mr Whatsoyourname you can't just dump the chemicals into the river. That will kill people."

Then again Halk does seem to be ahead of the real world there thanks to magic, hopefully none of that odours make you sick bollocks will be around. The Fae doctors are going to have plenty of fun introducing microbiology and so on though.
 
LGear said:
This is a point that I feel needs to be addressed for any technological advancement introduced by the Fae. The Phantom Bullet arc makes a passing remark on how electric vehicles are common in Kirito's time, which means that whenever possible, the Fae might want to introduce tech that was as environmentally friendly as possible ASAP, once they can get past the steam hurdle.
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If they have some one who knows the relevant battery chemistry to get a high capacity battery that isn't all to expensive to produce, then getting to a more electric oriented economy once the chemical industry is far enough along will probably be a lot easier.



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Also now thinking about how Amalgam might make it possible to produce interesting magical contraptions, being a magical insulator, it means you can trap and change flow direction of magic at the least.
 
Anzer'ke said:
I guess the acceleration of advancement that they're going for has a similar effect though, especially when they start off with end point medical knowledge.

"No Mr Whatsoyourname you can't just dump the chemicals into the river. That will kill people."

Then again Halk does seem to be ahead of the real world there thanks to magic, hopefully none of that odours make you sick bollocks will be around.
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That makes me wonder exactly what water and earth mages could do to improve waste disposal. I doubt it would be 100% effective, but still.
 
Quickshot0 said:
Also now thinking about how Amalgam might make it possible to produce interesting magical contraptions, being a magical insulator, it means you can trap and change flow direction of magic at the least.
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Well we know that mana powered elevators are a thing. Same for the orelights. Maybe the Fae cities already have some of this infrastructure in place and ready to be reverse engineered.
 
Anzer'ke said:
One of the things that really interests me, given that they're generally pretty nice and egalitarian, is the idea of an industrial revolution, not only with magic and attempts at avoiding the pitfalls.

But with the largest driving force actually giving a toss about the common people in all of it. If nothing else that one fact alone pretty much guarantees a totally different progression to the real world one. I cannot see the Fae being okay with becoming/enabling slum lords and even more so I cannot see them being okay with the behaviour of the early so called "captains of industry" with all the shit they pulled. Yay for no poorhouses!

I guess the acceleration of advancement that they're going for has a similar effect though, especially when they start off with end point medical knowledge.

"No Mr Whatsoyourname you can't just dump the chemicals into the river. That will kill people."

Then again Halk does seem to be ahead of the real world there thanks to magic, hopefully none of that odours make you sick bollocks will be around. The Fae doctors are going to have plenty of fun introducing microbiology and so on though.
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The only reason that out own society fell victim to the pitfalls of the Industrial Revolution and its aftereffects was because we didn't know any better: After all, it was a time when mankind was experimenting on the wonders of mechanization and industrialization, and had to experience through trial and error the various advantages and disadvantages that such would bring.

What they have in Halkegenia is a chance to avert or at least mitigate many of those problems with a second chance at recreating an industrial revolution from scratch. The only real unknown lies in the effects that magic may bring to the table, and whether they can be used to aid in the process of improving the process of creating a "Green" industry.
Quickshot0 said:
If they have some one who knows the relevant battery chemistry to get a high capacity battery that isn't all to expensive to produce, then getting to a more electric oriented economy once the chemical industry is far enough along will probably be a lot easier.
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Electricity is a subject taught in grade school. A lot of the Fae, especially the more scientifically minded ones, would know how to make simple generators, acid batteries or even electric motors from scratch using materials readily available in Halkegenia. Hell, if they can devote a significant amount of resources to the development of electrical power, they may be able to get an electrical infrastructure up alongside steam ones, so that certain technologies like electric motors could be quickly used in lieu of steam-powered equivalents.
 
kojiro kakita said:
That would still lead to mass inflation. Public works unless operating in a closed system introduces more currency into the public system while not increasing overall production capability of the nation in question, once again leading to hyperinflation. While inflation is sometimes unavoidable, hyperinflation is always avoidable.

In this case the Faeries would want to slowly release their treasury into the overall economy. Ideally instead of paying for everything all at once, payment over time with interest would lead to a less problematic economy.
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Wouldn't that depend entirely on what the public work is? I can't imagine that the TVA didn't encourage production.
 
LGear said:
The only reason that out own society fell victim to the pitfalls of the Industrial Revolution and its aftereffects was because we didn't know any better: After all, it was a time when mankind was experimenting on the wonders of mechanization and industrialization, and had to experience through trial and error the various advantages and disadvantages that such would bring.

What they have in Halkegenia is a chance to avert or at least mitigate many of those problems with a second chance at recreating an industrial revolution from scratch. The only real unknown lies in the effects that magic may bring to the table, and whether they can be used to aid in the process of improving the process of creating a "Green" industry.

Electricity is a subject taught in grade school. A lot of the Fae, especially the more scientifically minded ones, would know how to make simple generators, acid batteries or even electric motors from scratch using materials readily available in Halkegenia. Hell, if they can devote a significant amount of resources to the development of electrical power, they may be able to get an electrical infrastructure up alongside steam ones, so that certain technologies like electric motors could be quickly used in lieu of steam-powered equivalents.
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Well...you're a bit more optimistic then I am. I would credit it at least in some part to greed and the tendency of us all to not think outside of our own field and experiences. Not to claim any kind of conspiracy or other nonsense. Merely that a lot of these negatives arose from a lot of small evils that could well see replication here if not actively resisted. That said, I agree in principle. This is a hell of a second chance.

As to magic, again I point to stuff like Mana elevators (implying a mana power source, battery and circuit with switches) and the orelights (basically eco-streetlights but much prettier and more Fae-esque) which would seem to be crying out for examination and reverse engineering, given that it is likely in place within the game, such as to mimic or exceed real world technology.

Electricity just makes me want them to set up Tesla style distribution. Add magic to things and it working is moved from experimentally very likely to pretty much certain. It is outright more practical a method with far less ugly power lines and such dotted around the place. Which in turn gets around the problem that even if the Pixies and Tristainians were cool with major modifications to the landscape like that, the mobs would make it almost impossible to set up that kind of total coverage infrastructure.
Wireless is the solution to that problem.
 
LGear said:
Electricity is a subject taught in grade school. A lot of the Fae, especially the more scientifically minded ones, would know how to make simple generators, acid batteries or even electric motors from scratch using materials readily available in Halkegenia. Hell, if they can devote a significant amount of resources to the development of electrical power, they may be able to get an electrical infrastructure up alongside steam ones, so that certain technologies like electric motors could be quickly used in lieu of steam-powered equivalents.
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I'm actually one of the people who discussed the idea of early electrification since near the start. I was in this case considering it in mobile applications though, where you can't easily hook it up to a stationary infrastructure. Basically for things like cars, trucks, planes, etc.
Anzer'ke said:
Electricity just makes me want them to set up Tesla style distribution.
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If I remember correctly, Tesla's wireless distribution system is rather inefficient. Thus why to this day we continue to use fixed lines. Also I'm not entirely sure it won't have any large area side effects. (I suppose it would probably be fine... probably)
 
Quickshot0 said:
If I remember correctly, Tesla's wireless distribution system is rather inefficient. Thus why to this day we continue to use fixed lines. Also I'm not entirely sure it won't have any large area side effects. (I suppose it would probably be fine... probably)
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The primary reason it wasn't invested in was because it would be hard to monetize.
 
Ace of Scarabs said:
All those windstones might become relevant if mages figure out how to coax regulated lightning from them.
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I... didn't even think of that. That sounds like it has a lot of potential.

Though when it comes to getting electricity, it probably might be better to use fire stones as a substitute for a nuclear reactor. Magical lightning seems more expensive to produce.
 
Quickshot0 said:
If I remember correctly, Tesla's wireless distribution system is rather inefficient. Thus why to this day we continue to use fixed lines. Also I'm not entirely sure it won't have any large area side effects. (I suppose it would probably be fine... probably)
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Especially if you replace electrical current with filling the air with active or at least directly affectable magic.

There is no chance this could go wrong in any way whatsoever!
 
Ace of Scarabs said:
True that, using firestones as the core of steam/thermal generators is an easier approach.
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Firestones would be a good energy source, if they weren't so hard to get. The reason they see so oittle use in halk already is because of how deep they are. I'd honestly be surprised if Jotunheim is deep enough to pierce into that layer.
 
Windstones should be reasarched. Even if the crisis should abstain or be less pressing than in canon, one might find themselves in the bizzare situation of having a valuable consumable resource they need to get rid off.

Given the sheer energy needed to hold ships up against gravity... Wether its by negating gravity or by somehow generating a lifting force, this gotta be exploitable pretty massively.
Also, lightning. Wardes remarks were that in theory it could be generated quite easily, only it took triangle or square to control to usefull levels.
Also, given how much he spammed his bugzapper in that battle, the manacost cant be too high.

So, using windstones for energyproduction may well be possible, giving them rather massive clean energy available...

Wonder if this would be a resource worth exporting to earth if they ever get a connection.
 
Actually, now that I think about it, firestones might be the ideal battery, if they can release the fire in controlled bursts, or we can mine large amounts of them to store only a little power in each. Flere, do we know if firestones can release energy in small, controlled amounts?
 
Vaermina said:
Yea but Cardinal was designed by Kayaba, do you really think he would have cared about such things?
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To be perfectly honest, I doubt Kayaba designed Yui; Cardinal seems rather good at faking intelligence, and it was given a list of tasks to be performed. It probobly detirmened that it's tasks would be easier if the players were handled right; more players would become cleaners, you would have less things like in town murders, and so one.

However doing that would be against Kayaba's vision, so he told Cardinal to shut down that function.
 
TheLastOne said:
To be perfectly honest, I doubt Kayaba designed Yui; Cardinal seems rather good at faking intelligence, and it was given a list of tasks to be performed. It probobly detirmened that it's tasks would be easier if the players were handled right; more players would become cleaners, you would have less things like in town murders, and so one.

However doing that would be against Kayaba's vision, so he told Cardinal to shut down that function.
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Yui was apparently a trial run of a program designed to monitor and help players, instead of using dozens of staff for that purpose. And if game can be trusted in anyway, and as the "version 1" part of designation implies, there was more then just her.

And if your wondering why a game would need psychologists, remember that this was new technology. Having people on hand to monitor it in case something goes wrong makes sense. For example, in SAO you could choose your sex, but later games disallowed that due to risk to the players health.
 
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