Triggerhappy
Stick with Trigger and You'll Make it Through
- Location
- SoCal
So anyone care to explain how we can avoid or mitigate the nightmare of the industrial revolution this time around?
Halkegenia Online Thread 6 - //"Pixies!"\\
- Thread starter Triggerhappy
- Start date
I figured I'd answer to this one in particular to show how these things aren't always as they seem. For instance in this case making a light bulb last a 100 years is indeed quite possible. The reason they don't make them like that, is because it turns out they are fantastically inefficient then. (Basically you need to use a substantially thicker wire for this, and this effects the amount of power you need to make it glow) So much so, that making a new light bulb every now and then turns out to be cheaper.spaceman1997 said:
And thus light bulbs burn out. For other lighting technologies like say LED lighting, these things work out substantially different, thus why LED lights last much longer. (Assuming one doesn't have a crappy build)
Sinsystems
Patron Librarian
Use fire magic instead of coal?Triggerhappy said:
zero_traveler
Revolver Ocelot
- Location
- Revolver Ocelot
Basically, they were just a room full of scribes. Many heads, both Fae and Tristanian bent over desks scribbling notations and figures down on paper, seemingly oblivious to the goings on around them.APL 123AZ said:
"HAHAHAHAHAAHHAHA! It's working, IT'S WORKING! IT'S ALIVE, ALIVE I TEL...UH OH..." The sound of Hegent's voice cut off with the sound of a muffled explosion.
With an eerily synchronized and well put upon sigh, all heads swung up and stared dispassionately in the direction of 'Hegent's Madhouse'. A moment later, all heads swung around to the back of the room where a large flipboard was mounted, the figure on it just short of a hundred. With a flicker of magic, the flips began to swiftly clack around, the number changing.
When it stopped, it was now several hundred, and several of the scribes let out an exasperated groan.
Marked in Red paint below the flipboard was it's designation: "Protective Charms needed replaced due to Hegent"
"We're going to be over budget this month." One scribe said.
"Nah, we'll just cut their luxury expenses. Hegent gets 'Grade F' TP for the month." Another suggested.
With that determined, the heavily put-upon finance department of TRIST bent back to their notations.
Xexilf
Oblivion Sempiternum Daemonis
In this fic she calls herself "a triangle of water"Vaermina said:
In canon, i belive at the zombie-wales incident she was triangle as well. (With the addition of a secret/rare skill to linking up her power with (zombie) wales. The result was called a hexagon, but seemed within the reach of normal square for the effect)
Not sure if she ever reaches square in any of the canons, but shes probably not there yet.
Sinsystems
Patron Librarian
True so very true but it would mitigate the negative aspects. Plus you must remember all those Fairy fire magesNecroMechanoid said:
In the future, Water Magic will be used in more ways than ever imagined.Anzer'ke said:
"Watch as i use a bit of water magic to break down the cellular walls and extract the genetic material from the bacteria."
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
A good start would be for the companies doing the industrializing to be democratically managed by their workers, which would prevent most of the worst abuses. Then safety and environmental regulations, a welfare state, and if the workplace democracy doesn't cover it then a minimum wage.Triggerhappy said:
Ultimately the problem comes down to:Triggerhappy said:
-Knowledge of the possible problems
-Willingness to do something about it
-Effective Regulation
-Effective Enforcement
The Faerie already know about the first, and most are pretty willing to avert the worst pollution problems I imagine. Considering they are the source for many of these technologies for now, and thus considered experts, the State will probably be willing at their request to perhaps make some regulation for it as well.
The primary problems at this point is probably that the state is to weak to potentially properly enforce such regulation. Still, the entire path is shorter and the Faerie might work on strengthening the central state with their various ideas and inventions. Which would greatly reduce the window of abuse for many pollutants.
Aside of that one can try to immediately jump over where possible to cleaner, cheaper and more effective technologies.
Biigoh
Tanuki
- Location
- Tanukia
The simple consideration of the human factor instead of just outright seeing humans as cogs of machinery would help a fair bit, I suspect.Triggerhappy said:
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
And this is going to happen how? Companies today see workers as cogs.biigoh said:
Anzer'ke
Anarchism Ho!
...Not really sure how that fixes anything much. Or is particularly practical. I guess you reduce mining but the fire has to burn something, I'd wager that burning without fuel takes a lot of willpower. As for firestones those are rare enough or non-elves that Joseph only got given 3-5 of them and it was a big deal.Sinsystems said:
Firstly Citation please.Quickshot0 said:
Secondly, there are real world examples of bulbs just keeping on going, the point here is that at a certain point the manufacturers realised that this was a problem and started reducing the lifespans instead of increasing. By doing so across the industry they achieved an effect that remains to date. This is simply an example of what kind of thinking to nip in the bud. Especially before anyone makes printers.
Well first off we'd need to list the problems, I'll give it a shot but it's unlikely I'll get it right and certainly it'll be faaaar from conclusive.Triggerhappy said:
-The effect on people is a negative one. The need for workers requires bringing them in from the countryside into cities, then they are exploited to the max to fuel the industry. Awful hours, no safety, few holidays if any, all of these things being steps down from the previous. Communities get broken up and often don't reform. Housing becomes a dire situation with people living crammed into tiny spaces. Cue dickensian dystopia.
I'm honestly not sure how to deal with this. Maintaining current hours and holidays, beating safety standards and so forth in ahead of time, forcing the housing to develop in a healthy (not to mention more aesthetic) manner, all of this would seem a solution (given that the Fae naturally will be thinking much longer term than humans this kind of thing does make sense) however it's an extremely blunt method and the nobles are hardly far off the mindset of workers being disposable tools to exploit break and discard.
-Pollution and so forth. 'nuff said.
-Kicks off a lot of systems which become very hard to stop once the ball gets rolling. Unless the Fae plan to become a non-non-existent illuminati manipulating the world subtly, this has to be held off at the source. Thus economic changes have to be made extremely carefully. Societal shifts should follow similarly. Trying to aim towards safety nets, healthcare and so forth seems a good way to instil a countering mindset.
-Slightly contentious one here but Capitalism itself starts in this and that's not a good thing in a lot of ways. I'm not going to try and argue all the way on this one (though the words beneath my avatar are not empty and I would argue thus were this the place for it) but it seems a reasonable statement that reinventing the sheer lunacy some of modern society has become is not anyone's idea of a good plan. All I'm saying on this one is that realistically as well as ideologically, the Fae are not going to develop Halk along the same path our own world went. It's not possible and it's not wise anyway.
The end result is more or less guaranteed to be a very divergent economy and society to our own. So aiming this towards supporting people and so forth seems rational.
You.Aranfan said:
I like you.
Yeah what this guy said.
Worker management does seem the best solution if far from a complete one, though ironically in avoiding mentioning it as it felt controversial I ended up making a more ideologically charged post.Aranfan said:
But yeah, it would avert the human abuses in a lot of ways.
It also just occurs that simple education at this early stage might well help a lot with the pollution. Just tell everyone very clearly that doing things wrong kills the ecosystem (I refuse to contribute even slightly to this idea that the planet is fragile enough for us to kill it, it's a damn cosmic ball of rock) and then as a result kills those living there.
jwolfe_beta
Semi Genre-Savvy Overlord
- Location
- Canada
Well this article does cover a fair bit about it and Sakuya is a history expert so she should at least know the highlights.NecroMechanoid said:
Biigoh
Tanuki
- Location
- Tanukia
Which is part of the problem. The human factor was one of those things that I believe wasn't a consideration.Aranfan said:
If they're cogs, they can be replaced. If they can be replaced, they're not truly essential, right? I can lower costs by capping their salary, and if they get sick, they get replaced. Same deal with injuries. What do you mean I should take responsibilities for them because they got injured while working for me. I'm not a charity. That's one of the issues.
The other is, cut costs and increase efficiency by all means. It's not like you drink water from THAT river? Let's do the dumping of waste material in that river, it flows down stream and can be forgotten. What do you mean I can't just have my miners dig up everything, it would be more costly if we didn't just do it this way. Well... I suppose I could see about cutting out pollution and such from smoke stacks, but that would cost money to invest in some sort of pollution reduction system. Money that I can invest in things that will make me more money.
And really, it's not MY fault that the hand-weaving weavers can't keep up with my mass production factories, why should I care that they're out of work. I suppose I should care because they can work for me now. So they can have some money doing things better, my way.
Mind you, the fae would have access to knowledge on how to bypass some of the more polluting tech and such, even if it requires a higher capital and design input. ie they don't go to coal/wood burning, but might outright skip to electricity for steam generation, or involve fire mages or fire using fae for steam tech. Kind of like the Fire Nation did in Avatar the Last Air Bender.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Actually, it is your fault. The technology of the time produced a a spinning machine that would have and did allow artisan textile manufactures (think like Rarity from FiM) to compete with the big factories. The factory owners used their money to outlaw that machine.biigoh said:
And while you describe the mindset well enough, you aren't proposing a way to mitigate or prevent it. I propose again: Workplace Democracy. If it's good enough for our political organizations why not for our economic ones?
Biigoh
Tanuki
- Location
- Tanukia
What I'm trying to say that an eye and CONSIDERATION for the human factor instead of only an eye for profit and efficiency will help lower some if not a fair bit of the issues with the industrial revolution.Aranfan said:
That mindset is what caused all kins of problems with the industrial revolution, because it's an easy mindset to slip into. Expediency and Efficiency; fuck the competitors, fuck the workers, fuck the customers if they don't buy your goods and only yours.
Unrestrained capitalism as noted above is a serious problem.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
It is an easy mindset to slip into. How do you propose to keep people at the top from slipping into said mindset? Just saying it's bad, and why it's bad, isn't going to help prevent it. There needs to be mechanisms and structures set up to discourage the mindset, or it will keep coming back.biigoh said:
Biigoh
Tanuki
- Location
- Tanukia
Democracy isn't really going to help, due to the fact that you will get cliques and "old boys" network forming up with "vote blocs" and "parties" that want to go a certain way such as can be seen in just about any modern political system. And no, I'm not pointing fingers at the American United States government/political system, it's not JUST that one.Aranfan said:
What needs to be done is to give INCENTIVES, to make it worth going green. Carrots as it were for the industry. With the stick of penalties and such for failing audits as the back up. Because if there's only punishment, the incentive then becomes how well can you hide going against the regulations. In short, rewards for following regulations and or above it. AND a punishment system for NOT following it.
Anzer'ke
Anarchism Ho!
Worker control of factories is a pretty good starting point, not to mention that it increases the drive for people to enter the cities and work, thus bypassing the need for more negative methods of getting those workers (imposition of bizarre "work ethic" among them, human beings should not be made to believe in working constantly at menial crap as if it was a good thing in and of itself) involved.Aranfan said:
- Location
- Oblivion
I knew it was a way that was counter intuitive to how a rapier was supposed to be wielded, but thanks for the correction.zer0light said:
I really hope someone teaches her the proper way to use that weapon before she snaps the blade off. Though that would lead to the amusing scene of her asking a blacksmith for her usual and getting handed a 10pack of rapiers.
Build the factories, foundries, and chemical plants a long ways away from where they live maybe in the Salamander desert zone. Should be simple since unlike modern day humans the Fae can fly to work.Triggerhappy said:
You mean the companies all owned by the nobles?Aranfan said:
Something you forgot to mention is that the only land owners are the nobles. Which is going to cause no end of problems for the Fae if they try to create any workers rights since it could be the old company towns problem all over again.Anzer'ke said:
- Location
- Little Rock, AR
So why is Henrietta learning swordsmanship?
That sound frankly kinda dumb or pointless for a water mage. It doesn't synergize with a wand sword for melee fighting. And in the many situation where you lack a focus you're likely to lack for a blade that fits you as well.
Why not a Staff? The good ole beating stick is an excellent focus and beat stick. and you cobble on together from many things. and it's a good defensive weapon and strogn against the sword.
Or a Dagger which can be used like a wand and can be made from a wand and hidden on the body.
Magic's also superior to every from of combat that not highpowered repeating rifles or stealth assainations.
That sound frankly kinda dumb or pointless for a water mage. It doesn't synergize with a wand sword for melee fighting. And in the many situation where you lack a focus you're likely to lack for a blade that fits you as well.
Why not a Staff? The good ole beating stick is an excellent focus and beat stick. and you cobble on together from many things. and it's a good defensive weapon and strogn against the sword.
Or a Dagger which can be used like a wand and can be made from a wand and hidden on the body.
Magic's also superior to every from of combat that not highpowered repeating rifles or stealth assainations.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Nothing wrong with parties, but why would parties make a worker-managed firm treat their workers like shit?biigoh said:
Good luck doing that with the weak central government of fuedalism. Hell, good luck doing that with the upper class dominated modern centralized state.biigoh said:
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Settlements spring up around factories and places of work, your proposal doesn't really help. How do you think the big industrial cities got started?Vaermina said:
Why the hell would the nobles be owning the companies that the fae are starting?Vaermina said:
Except for the land that the Fae own collectively. Remember the treaty?Vaermina said:
Inverness
The Foxiest Wife
I get the feeling this discussion is about to head into a place it doesn't need to go.
Can you be more specific about the issues you're trying to address and their relevance to the story?Triggerhappy said: