Halkegenia Online Thread 6 - //"Pixies!"\\

[Quickshot0]

Firstly Citation please.

Secondly, there are real world examples of bulbs just keeping on going, the point here is that at a certain point the manufacturers realised that this was a problem and started reducing the lifespans instead of increasing. By doing so across the industry they achieved an effect that remains to date. This is simply an example of what kind of thinking to nip in the bud. Especially before anyone makes printers.

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It's not the best of sources, but it uses citations as well, so it should satisfy you, no?

Basically longevity of an Incandescent is affected by various things. And the long lasting ones are typically influenced by the thickness of the wire and voltage/power flow. But as that citation also shows, it comes at the price of efficiency. (5% voltage reduction leads to 20% loss in light production for instance) You should also note that in my original post I didn't say they didn't exist, just that they aren't very economical.

Maybe you're a bit confused because there was a cartel for awhile that artificially limited the already short lifetime of incandescents to an even shorter time frame yet?


I suppose a solution might be possible if they could find a way for the incandescent wire to stop disintegrating, or alternately for it to reconstruct itself. But ultimately it's not really a problem needing a solution, because newer light sources are much more efficient then an incandescent can hope to be. Thus mooting the entire matter.

 

[Biigoh]

Nothing wrong with parties, but why would parties make a worker-managed firm treat their workers like shit?

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Having worked in both union and non-union companies, I have to say that I found the non-union company to actually be BETTER run and effective without being hamstrung by the union's requirements. And this is me saying this as an entry level worker.

And also, human politics, ie you get office politics EVERYWHERE. It's human nature. Just because you have worker-managed companies, doesn't MEAN that the workers who aren't in management are going to be treated "nicely" or as nice as the ones in management positions.

Equality for all and all that, but some are more equal than others. I recommend reading Animal Farm.

Also note that at current, the only ones with the capital to start up companies WITHOUT the government sponsoring them are nobles or those the wealth of a noble. And to start up a company requires that said investment of funds be sizable. I somehow doubt that people are going to effectively be willing to give away their money "for free".

Good luck doing that with the weak central government of fuedalism. Hell, good luck doing that with the upper class dominated modern centralized state.

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What offering incentives (likely monetary or even tax breaks) for following regulations? And having non-partisan auditors check for non-compliance or even egregious breaking of the regulations, and imposing penalties for non-compliance by order of the queen?

Do good, get rewarded. Do bad, get punished. Isn't that the basic tenant of teaching/training children to not misbehave? Or training pets to not do things you don't want them to do?

 

[Vaermina]

So why is Henrietta learning swordsmanship?

That sound frankly kinda dumb or pointless for a water mage. It doesn't synergize with a wand sword for melee fighting. And in the many situation where you lack a focus you're likely to lack for a blade that fits you as well.

Why not a Staff? The good ole beating stick is an excellent focus and beat stick. and you cobble on together from many things. and it's a good defensive weapon and strogn against the sword.

Or a Dagger which can be used like a wand and can be made from a wand and hidden on the body.

Magic's also superior to every from of combat that not highpowered repeating rifles or stealth assainations.

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All very good points, but you're ignoring the most important one to Henrietta.

Taking sword lessons means she can have Wales Tudor as a tutor.

Settlements spring up around factories and places of work, your proposal doesn't really help. How do you think the big industrial cities got started?

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And that was one of the problems with the industrial revolution that they can side step.

Why the hell would the nobles be owning the companies that the fae are starting?

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Because it isn't the Fae that are starting them it's a joint ownership between the Fae and Nobles.

Except for the land that the Fae own collectively. Remember the treaty?

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Which is only the area's inside their 10 main cities boundaries.

 

[Larekko12]

All very good points, but you're ignoring the most important one to Henrietta.

Taking sword lessons means she can have Wales Tudor as a tutor.

.

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Stupid girl. Ain't it enough you almost doomed your nation to need Void ex machina or Fae ex machina over your indecretions but you can't even rember to get your beau to teach you a useful skill.

he's the prince of albion! Britian expy! If he doesn't know how to turn the old beating stick I'll eat my hat.
He's a sailor too. He should know daggerwork and gunmanship.


Hell they could be practicing triangle magic drills or hell cross training their actual magic and not be so stupid.

(Bad writing in English)

Last comment, I have raised an important question. Can the Wizards, magic without a wand? If not, how then can made ​​the first wand?

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I imagine they can but it's somewhat impractically hard if you're not a bad ass an working on a signature spell.

 

[Aranfan]

Having worked in both union and non-union companies, I have to say that I found the non-union company to actually be BETTER run and effective without being hamstrung by the union's requirements. And this is me saying this as an entry level worker.

And also, human politics, ie you get office politics EVERYWHERE. It's human nature. Just because you have worker-managed companies, doesn't MEAN that the workers who aren't in management are going to be treated "nicely" or as nice as the ones in management positions.

Equality for all and all that, but some are more equal than others. I recommend reading Animal Farm.

Also note that at current, the only ones with the capital to start up companies WITHOUT the government sponsoring them are nobles or those the wealth of a noble. And to start up a company requires that said investment of funds be sizable. I somehow doubt that people are going to effectively be willing to give away their money "for free".

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Orwell was a socialist. He got shot in the neck fighting in Spain for a Trotskyist division. Do not dare invoke him against unions, it utterly ruins your credibility.

Do not forget that the 8 hour day and safety regulations and even the wage that you get in the non-union job is the result of the fights unions have done in the past and continuing today. Also, assuming you're an american, the Federal Government has all kinds of rules that force unions to be more bureaucratic and less effective than they should be.

And with the workers given a real say, it will mitigate the worst abuses, for the same reason that working democracy mitigates the worst internal abuses by government. I'm not saying it will be a cure all, but it will help a lot.

What offering incentives (likely monetary or even tax breaks) for following regulations? And having non-partisan auditors check for non-compliance or even egregious breaking of the regulations, and imposing penalties for non-compliance by order of the queen?

Do good, get rewarded. Do bad, get punished. Isn't that the basic tenant of teaching/training children to not misbehave? Or training pets to not do things you don't want them to do?

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The Crown doesn't have the centralization needed to effectively do those things. And modern centralized states only have the political will to impose those kinds of measures when the population is on the edge of revolt.

And that was one of the problems with the industrial revolution that they can side step.

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How?

Because it isn't the Fae that are starting them it's a joint ownership between the Fae and Nobles.

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The nobles are investing, I don't know how that gives ownership, just an obligation to give a share of the profits. The Fae can set up their enterprises any way they like, they're the people with the tech knowledge.

Which is only the area's inside their 10 main cities boundaries.

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Ghost cities that are all nigh empty. Easy enough to make room for businesses and factory districts.

 

[Vaermina]

Stupid girl. Ain't it enough you almost doomed your nation to need Void ex machina or Fae ex machina over your indecretions but you can't even rember to get your beau to teach you a useful skill.

he's the prince of albion! Britian expy! If he doesn't know how to turn the old beating stick I'll eat my hat.
He's a sailor too. He should know daggerwork and gunmanship.

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On the sliding scale of stupidity it almost trumps her idea to replace all her guards with people who can't use magic doesn't it?

 

[Jonen C]

So anyone care to explain how we can avoid or mitigate the nightmare of the industrial revolution this time around?

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Social welfare system - play off of the Noblesse oblige to push it through, citing horror stories from our own industrialization - and regulations. Regulations for everything (including the regulations).

Heavy state control while setting things up, making sure to take into account when planning factories such as worker housing (including for the families and dependants of the workers), public transport, education, law enforcement and emergency services, hospitals and wellness (so parks and green areas, recreatonal facilities) etc etc, then gradually relax state control once the initial infrastructure and facilities are in place. - Many Swedish towns predating the industrial revolution had been set up by Nobles working mines and forges, and they set up fairly workable social nets, though these were intended to keep the workers in and working... Establishing a legal system that allows workers to move (relatively) freely, and bring up concerns (and force the employers to address, or at least respond to, them)...

Transparency and establishment of public media (as a 4th estate), both to make use of (and motivate) increasing literacy, spread information (and propaganda) and keep people honest. Adjustments of legal code to secure at least limited freedom of the press and protect sources and such. Widespread distribution of instruction manuals on various useful topics, including politics.

Probably best to look at the examples provided by Taiwan and South Korea in the transition from dictatorial, post Imperial Japanese occupation, agricultural nations into todays Asian Tigers - agriculture to textile industry (labor intensive, poorly educated workforce), towards heavy industry (shipyards etc, labor intensive, tool intensive, requiring moderately educated workforce) and finally high tech industry (requires less labor, but a highly educated workforce)... Of course, since Tristain is in position to become a world leader in Industry from the get go, they'd also need to develop R&D and spearhead into each new area, which means they need skilled engineers and inventors from the get go...

 

[Larekko12]

On the sliding scale of stupidity it almost trumps her idea to replace all her guards with people who can't use magic doesn't it?

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At least that can be explained as not having any nobles to trust for use as bodyguards.

 

[Aranfan]

Snip...

Probably best to look at the examples provided by Taiwan and South Korea in the transition from dictatorial,

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These aren't dictatorships. They do not have a centralized government like pre-revolution France or South Korea did. Henrietta and the crown probably isn't powerful enough to push your regulations through

 

[LGear]

(Bad writing in English)

Last comment, I have raised an important question. Can the Wizards, magic without a wand? If not, how then can made ​​the first wand?

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There's at least one canon event of a Mage casting magic without a wand: said mage being Karin, who managed to cast a spell in an emotional outburst despite not having a wand.

I imagine that mages can cast without a want, it's just really difficult to do so. Like how you can kill someone by discharging a round using a hammer and nail, but it'd be simpler to load said round into a gun and shoot.

 

[Anzer'ke]

Equality for all and all that, but some are more equal than others. I recommend reading Animal Farm.

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Wow, you really missed the point of a book critiquing the specific issues of a state communist society huh?

Also note that at current, the only ones with the capital to start up companies WITHOUT the government sponsoring them are nobles or those the wealth of a noble. And to start up a company requires that said investment of funds be sizable. I somehow doubt that people are going to effectively be willing to give away their money "for free".

What offering incentives (likely monetary or even tax breaks) for following regulations? And having non-partisan auditors check for non-compliance or even egregious breaking of the regulations, and imposing penalties for non-compliance by order of the queen?

Do good, get rewarded. Do bad, get punished. Isn't that the basic tenant of teaching/training children to not misbehave? Or training pets to not do things you don't want them to do?

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The Fae also, and that is indeed the first issue here and the key one. They have to be willing to give up their treasury moneys when presented with this information. To surrender the profiteer position and accept the longer term societal goods instead of shorter term monetary gains. Else history repeats and horrible things happen. Thinker, Yulier, Sakuya, come on and get your names in those history books.
I would point out that given their life spans though, the Fae are probably a lot more ready to go for the long term goal.

As pointed out, this would be a nice side effort, but it would be a weak one at best.

No actually punishment is a terrible method to get people to do something. It's simple and easy to do, but that's the only real reason it's so popular. As far as effects go it simply doesn't work.
Kids for instance generally (and yes this is from experience, I got to spend about seven years practically raising two younger brothers in a very unfortunate environment, no more specifics then that) respond far faaar better to being treated as equals and rewarded uncommonly. Heck even criminals respond better to pretty much anything that isn;t punishment.
tl;dr punishment is not the way to go. Unless you just want to be lazy, emotional and vent a lot.

EDIT:

It's not the best of sources, but it uses citations as well, so it should satisfy you, no?

Basically longevity of an Incandescent is affected by various things. And the long lasting ones are typically influenced by the thickness of the wire and voltage/power flow. But as that citation also shows, it comes at the price of efficiency. (5% voltage reduction leads to 20% loss in light production for instance) You should also note that in my original post I didn't say they didn't exist, just that they aren't very economical.

Maybe you're a bit confused because there was a cartel for awhile that artificially limited the already short lifetime of incandescents to an even shorter time frame yet?


I suppose a solution might be possible if they could find a way for the incandescent wire to stop disintegrating, or alternately for it to reconstruct itself. But ultimately it's not really a problem needing a solution, because newer light sources are much more efficient then an incandescent can hope to be. Thus mooting the entire matter.

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Sorry, missed this on my first read. Dunno how. Anyhooo...

Should have made this even clearer then.

Early bulbs had a life of up to 2500 hours, but in 1924 a cartel agreed to limit life to 1000 hours.

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From your source is my point. I'm using this as an example of the mindset.

As to lightbulbs themselves, thank you for the information, though I would cheerfully point out that this does little to address my actual complaint, that any surpassing of this problem was disabled by research being limited by said companies.

 

[Quickshot0]

The Crown doesn't have the centralization needed to effectively do those things. And modern centralized states only have the political will to impose those kinds of measures when the population is on the edge of revolt.

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That's not entirely accurate, the Scandinavian Democracies do have a rather good reputation for a reason. Which is in part because all to often they can make reforms with out nearing the outright revolt level. (Though obviously even they at times need a fair bit of prodding)

In any case, there's a rather large amount of variation between the various centralised states political will, in things like reform. So your statement isn't entirely accurate.

 

[zero_traveler]

(Bad writing in English)

Last comment, I have raised an important question. Can the Wizards, magic without a wand? If not, how then can made ​​the first wand?

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I suppose that end question is, "If you need a wand to cast magic, whence came the first wand then?" IE: the old chicken or the egg argument.

The answer is, Founder Brimir. When creating the "Fire Water Earth Wind" system it's not unlikely that he crafted the first Focii and taught his people how to do it as part of spreading the use of his "Four elements" system.

 

[Jonen C]

Also, something to consider in RE: Pollution - something we saw in the Industrial Revolution (and nineteenth century, well into the twentieth, and to an extent still see in China and other emerging economies (f.ex. India)): "Pollution" (specifically smokestacks belching smoke) is seen as "Progress" and brings "Prosperity".

I know an old nineteenth century engraving of the skyline of my hometown - the artist who did it added extra smokestacks to make the city seem better off.

The fairies are going to want to avoid this connotation ever developing... Which may be hard - see also art from f.ex. North Korea and China, or the Soviet Union - the socialist realism movement in art - glorifying industry...
Ideally, this could be countered by encouraging a national romantic movement in art and culture, incorporating elements of the Faerie aesthetic and the sublime mystique of their homeland to offset reactionary responses from the Halkeginian side of things, and foster a bit of nostalgia and hope among the Faeries.
Identifying good areas and setting aside nature preserves and setting up parks and cultural landscape preserves (areas where the inhabitants are encouraged to retain a traditional lifestyle through special incentives) would be a good idea.

 

[Zeful]

I suppose that end question is, "If you need a wand to cast magic, whence came the first wand then?" IE: the old chicken or the egg argument.

The answer is, Founder Brimir. When creating the "Fire Water Earth Wind" system it's not unlikely that he crafted the first Focii and taught his people how to do it as part of spreading the use of his "Four elements" system.

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Except Brimir didn't make the elemental system of Halkgenkia, there are examples of mages amongst his people who never learned from him casting magic.

 

[Jonen C]

These aren't dictatorships. They do not have a centralized government like pre-revolution France or South Korea did. Henrietta and the crown probably isn't powerful enough to push your regulations through

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They were (or became) military dictatorships in all but name in the immediate aftermath of liberation - they only became democratically liberated during the late seventies and eighties.
Tristain isn't a dictatorship, and is a weak central state, and ideally, that needs to change before you can get large scale industrialization underway.
I'm not saying Tristain has to become a military dictatorship, but the state needs to become much stronger, or at least gain sufficient legitimacy and support from enough influential nobles to be able to push through the necessary regulations and enforce them, as well as manage the resources needed for various initiatives.

 

[Anzer'ke]

most excellent snip

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This. This.

All the Thises!

As for long term. don't over automate, as that will eventually remove the need for jobs and people that have nothing else going for them. (not everybody is a genius or even average etc).

Essentially set up a group to oversee these aspects of the factories and the power to intervene if things go badly and do 'surprise' inspections.

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Heck no, automate as much as possible. The whole point of society is to take care of one another and if they cannot take care of those who find themselves useless without menial work (which would be pretty much limited to the seriously disabled, once you include artisans and writers and so forth pretty much everyone has a skill or six buried in them somewhere) then that's a system failing in itself.
Also automation is as inevitable as progress itself. Fighting it is like trying to empty an ocean with a thimble that you empty out into a river that feeds the ocean.

Make that group composed of particularly noblesse oblige types, they thus have an avenue for transition towards nobles retaining enough power to not get grumpy while workers can still own their factories.

 

[Vaermina]

How?

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By the very method I described that you were against.

The nobles are investing, I don't know how that gives ownership, just an obligation to give a share of the profits. The Fae can set up their enterprises any way they like, they're the people with the tech knowledge.

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That's not how it works in the time periods we are using as a base.

To clarify this to the point where no more arguments can be made, anything built on the nobles land legally belongs to the nobles.

Ghost cities that are all nigh empty. Easy enough to make room for businesses and factory districts.

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I think you are majorly overestimating the size of the cities and underestimating how many of those buildings would have been owned by Fae who don't want to share living space with people they don't know and who can't pay rent.

 

[Xexilf]

A few pages back i wrote a few paragraphs about Akis thought process and what she would face if she were redeemed, some may have read it. I decided to try to turn it into a proper snip. So:


Akis Journey

You are awake. You can feel the light. You were dead, and now you live again, by the holy power of the founder, wielded by his chosen prophet, Cromwell. You clearly see the world, Cromwell is absolute and right, and you will follow his orders, whatever they may be, because as the founders chosen, he knows what to do.You, Aki, will serve the holy cause.
Now, something might seem a bit strange about yourself right now, but you can very well remember everything that happend until now, if your memories seem a bit distant at times, thats surely only because you were so foolish back then. Thinking seems a bit hard at times, but that hardly matters, with the founders light there to guide you. Everything is great, you´ve overcome your previous weaknesses by that holy power, and are now working finally not only for the right side, but for a holy cause.

Meeting your friends again was a bit of a confusing experience. Why cant they see that they are wrong? Its so clear.... And they forced you to fight them, that was sad, you suppose. Still, when that foolish royalist mage puts a hole trough your chest its only proven again, you are a vessel of holy power, and cannot die.
Caramella calls you brainwashed... how silly can you get? You arent brainwashed, you see the light... if anything everyone else is brainwashed, why cant they see that Cromwell is right? Its so simple...
Then she tricks you, and there is fire and darkness.
That hurt a bit... no matter, trough the holy power of the founder you cannot die. Your arms and part of one leg are missing, but with Arguilles help, you have found them soon enough. You wonder... if you hadnt found them, would they have come back by themselves? Would they have grown back?... not really important now, Dunwell is talking....
Dunwell-sama and Wells-sama are nice. They are trying to help you all they can, And together following the holy purpose of Cromwell you will help the world. Wells seems to act a bit strange around you at times...
Is he worried that you are angry that he hurt you? But how could you? Without that, you may have never seen the light. You try to act friendly and put him at ease, hes really a nice person.
Some things about the world are a still a bit confusing, oh well, youre trying your best to adapt, and finally come to understand some things. You still seem slightly detached from your old memories at times, but it isnt really important, you see the light.
Sometimes you still start to wonder though... was thinking always so hard? Oh well, your getting better at that too...

Newcastle. Finally, the royalists will be driven from Albion, for the glory of Cromwell... Tristains fleet carried a lot of fairies, that intrigues you... You wonder how many of them you can bring to the light of the founder. But first, Dunwell has a special mission for you... and with your wings, you will be like an angel.
Or not? What did Dunwell mean?
Caramella kept saying your not Aki. Calling you a thing. How can she! Ok you were fighting, but is it so hard to see she is on the wrong side? All your trying is to show them the truth, and save her from her sinful live. And even if your on opposite sides, theres no need to say something like that. Before you can free her, theres a loud bang, and you find yourself splattered once more.
While you heal, not easy, but not beyond you, you have a mission, you watch as they burn the others... Thats horrible, a second chance by the grace of the founder, and they are destroying it. And they captured Mizuki...

After the battle, you keep doing your best for the cause. Wells still seems nervous at times, so you are trying things to put him at ease. Your having some ideas there... Still, you cant keep your mind from wandering back to Caramella and your other friends... was there really the need to say hings like that? Calling you a thing? Calling you not Aki? How could you not be Aki? You decide to ask Wells about that...
Wells said you were Aki. Its fine. You are Aki. You have to be.....

Cromwell and Wells and Dunwell are fighting... How can this be? You are all united under the Founders holy light, this cannot be really happening... you know Cromwell is holy and right, but Wells and Dunwell are nice and always trying to help... this has to be a misunderstanding... you should try to break it up...
Cromwell did something with the holy ring... PAIN...mind fading... ...NO, holding on, dont want to die again... something is wrong with your body, its like the holy power is leaking away... but you´ve survived so far, you came trough stuff that put even the other chosen down, you will not fall here... Cant stay... run away, into the forest...sort things out later

You are saved... Elfgirl used her ring.... And now....
Gone...the light is gone... hurts to think... you have to think... whats going on...
Your friends... you were hurting them... if its gone, if the way you see now.... no, you need certainity, thinking is hard... but you have to... if its gone, if it wasnt holy... they said you were mindcontrolled... and looking at it now, not certain, but so much clearer...then... what have you done?? You were hurting them... fighting for Cromwell... Cromwell, whos not holy.
Cromwell, whos murdering innocents, starting wars... and mindcontrol... and you were helping him....
Bastard! You are going to find some way to get back at him. Make him suffer...
And then, or maybe better even before, you are going to find your friends and tell them how sorry you are... maybe you could have resisted somehow, you feel so guilty... hope they can forgive you some day.
You can forgive them for calling you a thing in that state, you suppose. But saying your not Aki was a bit out of line... just that ever since skiesedge, you were controlled. Cromwell probably used your weakend state after you got hit trough the heart with... hit... trough... the... heart... and new life.... they say your not Aki... your memories from before are different, distant... Elfgirl says magic cant bring back the dead, just create abominations from corpses... and you died at skiesedge...Aki died... that means...NOOO....
It cant be true... you are Aki! You have to be Aki! If your not Aki... No, have to be Aki, cant not be Aki...cant .. wont... this... sniff... sob... cry....

You calmed down... Elfgirl...Tiffania...is nice. She stayed with you, and was trying to help you....
You are not Aki. They were right...Abomination.....
Youre looking in a mirror now. Aki looks back... What are you? Stolen face.... stolen memories... a thing, created from the death of an innocent. And you caused so much suffering...you killed, you helped cromwell with his war... and your... no, never yours. Aki...the other Akis friends... you hurt them so much...are you a monster? Should you just end it?
It would be easy enough... no more pain...no more doubt... one abomination less in the world...
But... you still want revenge... and your... no, Akis friends... you still want to say how sorry you are... could they ever forgive you? Could they ever accept you? You, who stole the face and mind of their friend? You who killed them, tried to have them turned into more abominations? You may have been controlled, but you still feel responsible... What would they say to you? But if you die here, you will never know...and you will have no hope at all, of ever being forgiven, or making up for what you did.
Elfgirl say she knows how it is to be not wanted. Says you can still do good, as long as you dont give up, even if the world hates you. Those children shes caring for, they are happier trough her help... even if the rest of the world thinks her existence unholy...
No. You will go on. The world seems big and uncertain now, and thinking for yourself is scary... but you will manage somehow. You will help the others, you will hurt Cromwell... and you will become something the other Aki could have been proud of !!!
Now, what should you do first? ...


---


Title seems a bit cliche, but couldnt think of anything better... Thoughts?

Edit: Replaced Title with whats been used in the snip index fro the old version, somehow seems better, even if its pretty mundane
(old title was "[<Who are You?]>")

 

[Biigoh]

Orwell was a socialist. He got shot in the neck fighting in Spain for a Trotskyist division. Do not dare invoke him against unions, it utterly ruins your credibility.

Do not forget that the 8 hour day and safety regulations and even the wage that you get in the non-union job is the result of the fights unions have done in the past and continuing today. Also, assuming you're an american, the Federal Government has all kinds of rules that force unions to be more bureaucratic and less effective than they should be.

And with the workers given a real say, it will mitigate the worst abuses, for the same reason that working democracy mitigates the worst internal abuses by government. I'm not saying it will be a cure all, but it will help a lot.

The Crown doesn't have the centralization needed to effectively do those things. And modern centralized states only have the political will to impose those kinds of measures when the population is on the edge of revolt..

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I might not be saying this right.

What I'm saying is human nature.

Your workers, by default, will have to be humans and a mix of fae. But the majority will be humans as there are more human commoners available by default than fae. And even the fae are at their hearts human. Are you going to say that they're not going to behave to human nature of forming their own monkey spheres? Of having people with common interests/background joining together because they hang out after work in a pub or have things they do together on their days off? And that people will do favors for people they know or like? Close an eye or lend a hand? Close ranks against outsiders or things that will negatively impact them? Or look down on people of a different background/social status or even "Well, I don't like him. His political view/stance isn't the same as mine. You agree with me that he's an idiot, right?"

This is human nature, giving democracy to all companies; ie making it the "property" of the workers will result in cliques forming and ending up in charge due to social issues/positions in said company or managing to get votes going their way.

And then you get the issue of direction of the company, it would come down to votes to determine what it does. If it should accept customers or change production techniques, which would necessitate changing the way things get done, and possibly loss of positions and thus would get people voting against.

As for "rewards" verses "punishment".

And the crown has the right of taxation and awarding of contracts. Compliance with regulations would either have a monetary rewards, tax breaks, or a higher change of more contracts being awarded to a given company. While the reverse is also true, fines/higher taxes, and a higher change of LOSS of contracts...

 

[edmantgoog]

Which is part of the problem. The human factor was one of those things that I believe wasn't a consideration.

If they're cogs, they can be replaced. If they can be replaced, they're not truly essential, right? I can lower costs by capping their salary, and if they get sick, they get replaced. Same deal with injuries. What do you mean I should take responsibilities for them because they got injured while working for me. I'm not a charity. That's one of the issues.

The other is, cut costs and increase efficiency by all means. It's not like you drink water from THAT river? Let's do the dumping of waste material in that river, it flows down stream and can be forgotten. What do you mean I can't just have my miners dig up everything, it would be more costly if we didn't just do it this way. Well... I suppose I could see about cutting out pollution and such from smoke stacks, but that would cost money to invest in some sort of pollution reduction system. Money that I can invest in things that will make me more money.

And really, it's not MY fault that the hand-weaving weavers can't keep up with my mass production factories, why should I care that they're out of work. I suppose I should care because they can work for me now. So they can have some money doing things better, my way.

Mind you, the fae would have access to knowledge on how to bypass some of the more polluting tech and such, even if it requires a higher capital and design input. ie they don't go to coal/wood burning, but might outright skip to electricity for steam generation, or involve fire mages or fire using fae for steam tech. Kind of like the Fire Nation did in Avatar the Last Air Bender.

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Yes god yes fire nation is the only way to go why did nobody think of it?

 

[Aranfan]

By the very method I described that you were against.

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Building factories away from cities won't work, because people will move to be closer to their workplace.

That's not how it works in the time periods we are using as a base.

To clarify this to the point where no more arguments can be made, anything built on the nobles land legally belongs to the nobles.

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I thought house-rent and land-rent were distinct, and that commoners could own buildings and goods and infrastructure but had to pay rent on the land?

 

[edmantgoog]

It is an easy mindset to slip into. How do you propose to keep people at the top from slipping into said mindset? Just saying it's bad, and why it's bad, isn't going to help prevent it. There needs to be mechanisms and structures set up to discourage the mindset, or it will keep coming back.

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They have book in the library distribute them get people informed so they can know the importance.

 

[Aranfan]

I might not be saying this right.

What I'm saying is human nature.

Your workers, by default, will have to be humans and a mix of fae. But the majority will be humans as there are more human commoners available by default than fae. And even the fae are at their hearts human. Are you going to say that they're not going to behave to human nature of forming their own monkey spheres? Of having people with common interests/background joining together because they hang out after work in a pub or have things they do together on their days off? And that people will do favors for people they know or like? Close an eye or lend a hand? Close ranks against outsiders or things that will negatively impact them? Or look down on people of a different background/social status or even "Well, I don't like him. His political view/stance isn't the same as mine. You agree with me that he's an idiot, right?"

This is human nature, giving democracy to all companies; ie making it the "property" of the workers will result in cliques forming and ending up in charge due to social issues/positions in said company or managing to get votes going their way.

And then you get the issue of direction of the company, it would come down to votes to determine what it does. If it should accept customers or change production techniques, which would necessitate changing the way things get done, and possibly loss of positions and thus would get people voting against.

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Of course politics would happen. But they wouldn't be the "Work 14 hour days in terribly unsafe conditions with no days off or starve" politics that happened during the industrial revolution. People will actually have days off.

And the studies I've seen don't have the co-operatives changing production techniques any slower than autocratic companies.

 

[Biigoh]

I would point out that given their life spans though, the Fae are probably a lot more ready to go for the long term goal.

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Small problem with this, really. The fae do NOT know that they have an extended life span. They might speculate as they notice that they're not aging as fast. But this is something that would pop up at least a decade down the line when you can't go with "oh, they're aging gracefully". And by which time, habits would have set in with regards how long term a goal they'd shoot for.

This would be when they adjust their goals to longer terms.

No actually punishment is a terrible method to get people to do something. It's simple and easy to do, but that's the only real reason it's so popular. As far as effects go it simply doesn't work.
Kids for instance generally (and yes this is from experience, I got to spend about seven years practically raising two younger brothers in a very unfortunate environment, no more specifics then that) respond far faaar better to being treated as equals and rewarded uncommonly. Heck even criminals respond better to pretty much anything that isn;t punishment.
tl;dr punishment is not the way to go. Unless you just want to be lazy, emotional and vent a lot.

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What I'm saying is a combination of rewards to help encourage people/companies to be sustainable, while punishments would exist to make people not just go "meh" and go for the easy route out.