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Halkegenia Online Thread 6 - //"Pixies!"\\

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Going by the Hippocratic Oath they would try to help Cattleya regardless of whether or not they given funds to help other people since not doing so would be neglecting a patient.
 
Larekko12 said:
When Anzer brought up part of the Hippocractic oath that is not relevant to the situation save as an ultimatum.
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Man what? Fae medical professionals have a lot of work on their plate just trying to get the understanding of the Fae body up the what the Halk natives know about the human body much less what is known about the human body on Earth; and that is ignoring all the new diseases, allergies, viruses and toxins of their new environment that they now have to deal with.

They can't spend the time to actually work on Catalina other than maybe a single consultation to narrow down what category her affliction is (bacterial, virual, fungal, parasite). They can't even really suggest a course of treatment because none of them are trained in medicine from the Early Modern period, and much of what they had available to prescribe for those courses are no longer available.

That part of the Hippocratic oath is entirely relevant to the situation. Even with a Fae's speed, it would take several days to get to the Vallerie estate, look over Catalina, and then fly back. Besides as long as Catalina's condition is stable, I don't see Karin doing anything other than discretely asking Sakuya about the Fae's medical capabilities and the costs of employ one as a retainer/servant (whichever is more applicable) to the Valleries.
 
Mahrac said:
Going by the Hippocratic Oath they would try to help Cattleya regardless of whether or not they given funds to help other people since not doing so would be neglecting a patient.
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Which means that it should never come up and the doctor will try his best and get paid out the wazoo and probably get his miracle cases hand in marriage.
Zeful said:
Man what?

snip.
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Then the answer is." I'm sorry I don't even know where to begin with this. It's like nothing I've ever seen. I can't help you. The workload on this would be the work of a life time and I have many more patients I can help. I'm sorry."

Instead of "I cannot in good conscience as a sworn doctor limit my practise to just your daughter. I must offer the same treatment to anyone else who needs it, and wants it."
 
You forgot to add.

"I will keep in contact in case I find a colleague that can devise a treatment or in case any breakthroughs that might help your daughter are made. "
 
Triggerhappy said:
I'm curious as to how the genocide spell is supposed to work. It is just huge explosion? (unlikely) Or does it cause every member of the targeted race to keel over dead/turn into pillars of ash etc?
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Covered by others already, but the answer is basically "not yet shown in LN canon before author died".
Xexilf said:
Ok, question for those versed in ZnT Canon:

Shai'tans gate. What do we actually know for sure?

It leads potentially to other world. Its guarded by the elves, its activity responds to the number of active void mages.
Was built by brimir. The elves fear it for some reason but cant destroy it.

Correct so far? Anything else we know?
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All correct, with the one other thing we know being the Holy Land's present day location being 'Dragon's Nest', a series of islands. The humans don't know that Dragon's Nest = Holy Land however.
 
Vaermina said:
Or less given that ALO was a land without seasonal weather changes.
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Actually ALO has seasons.
It was early January in the outside world, but even though it was
winter, the temperature in Tokyo hardly ever drops below zero due to
global warming in the recent years.
However, whether or not it was to show the company's work
ethics, Alfheim continued to be under severe cold. The temperature in
the area north of the World Tree frequently drops down to 10, 20
degrees below zero. If you didn't prepare cold-resistant equipment or
buffs, you wouldn't even want to fly. Currently, Aincrad floated above
the Gnome's territory, in the far North of the world. The temperature in
every floor was so cold that you could see ice crystals even during the
day.
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And before you say that they added this after Fairy Dance, remember that SAO had seasons. Since ALO is running a nearly identical version of Cardinal to SAO they would have added it it to the game.
 
spaceman1997 said:
Actually ALO has seasons.

And before you say that they added this after Fairy Dance, remember that SAO had seasons. Since ALO is running a nearly identical version of Cardinal to SAO they would have added it it to the game.
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No ALO had temperature zones not seasons.
 
It was early January in the outside world, but even though it was
winter, the temperature in Tokyo hardly ever drops below zero due to
global warming in the recent years.
However, whether or not it was to show the company's work
ethics, Alfheim continued to be under severe cold. The temperature in
the area north of the World Tree frequently drops down to 10, 20
degrees below zero. If you didn't prepare cold-resistant equipment or
buffs, you wouldn't even want to fly. Currently, Aincrad floated above
the Gnome's territory, in the far North of the world. The temperature in
every floor was so cold that you could see ice crystals even during the
day.
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Refers to Alfheim in general Vaer. They're maybe naturally (or unnaturally) colder areas in Alfheim but that doesn't discount there being seasons.
 
Zaiaku said:
It seems that she suffers from some sort of magical cancer or something, the minute one area was alleviated with either magic or medicine, the illness would metastasize to another area of her body.
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One of the other possibilities discussed in length by EarthScorpion and Cpl_Facehugger is that Cattleya may be suffering from parasites due to her pets and Karin's own Manticore. In that case, it becomes possible that the Halk methods of killing the parasites would be causing Catt damage while healing her would also be healing the parasites, which would in turn also match a good deal of what was described with her symptoms (and it would also place a LOT of grief/shame/denial on Karin as well). I can search for those posts and paste them in here if you wish.
 
Zaiaku said:
But IIRC, Cattleya didn't start dealing with animals until she got sick in the first place.
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Hold up, I've got damn near all of the quotes. Posting them in here now.
Flere821 said:
Vol6 Ch2 stated the cause to Cattleya's illness is unknown. The Valliere family have tried hiring Water mages from all over Helkeginia, but none of them can heal Cattleya. It appears her illness cannot be healed by manipulating the flow of water inside her. If the symptoms are healed in one area (regardless whether it is healed by magic or medicine) another part of the body starts to get worse.
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Cpl_Facehugger said:
It almost sounds like some kind of parasite is moving through her body.
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NecroMechanoid said:
If we take into account what Cattleya does most of the time, whats a common way to contract a parasitic virus?
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EarthScorpion said:
... please stop trying to comment on diseases, NecroMechanoid. A "parasitic virus"? That's... either meaningless, because all parasites are viruses, or incorrect, because the parasites we're talking about are multicellular organisms (like the things that cause malaria, which aren't bacteria or viruses).

But to answer that, actually, most of the nastiest parasites humans can get come from animals. Which Cattleya spends a lot of time around. On the other hand, she's been ill since a young age so that's probably not correlated; her animal collection post-dates her illness, from what we can tell.

Of course, if we are going to be... twisted, we could point out that felines are a source of some rather nasty parasites, and a manticore is part cat...

:p
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dan-heron said:
Okay, EarthScorpion?

anyway, after a quick check on parasites that cause hemoptysis, there's a tapeworm that causes that. One that is transmitted through fecal matter from animals like dogs. Or the many pets Cattleya has with her. Fecal matter that stays on the fur, that is passed to the hands after petting her animals, then to the mouth and into her system.

Includes "Abdominal pain and jaundice if the liver is involved. Chest pain and coughing up blood or the contents of cysts if the lungs are involved. Hives or a severe life-threatening allergic reaction (anaphylaxis)".

EDIT:

Oh ho ho, I like the idea of the manticore. Ah the possibilities
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Cpl_Facehugger said:
EarthScorpion said:
Of course, if we are going to be... twisted, we could point out that felines are a source of some rather nasty parasites, and a manticore is part cat...
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You are a genius. An absolute genius.
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EarthScorpion said:
I will point out that a manticore is going to be even worse parasite-wise than normal felines, because not only is it larger (and so its parasites are larger and nastier), but the mythological manticore is part human. And so that brings in all sorts of possible chimeric adaptions that manticore parasites might have which would affect humans worse.

There is, however, the issue that if it comes from a manticore, we must ask ourselves why the condition is so mysterious. There will be other known sufferers on record, and possibly causal links between "disease" and "manticore ownership", because manticores are common enough that there are manticore knights.

... of course, that might just mean that Karin already knows what's causing it. And is beating herself up about it inside.

...

I wonder how many female mages have manticores, and how that would affect the population dynamics of the condition, if it was linked to maternal infection while pregnant in some way rather than direct infection?
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Cpl_Facehugger said:
EarthScorpion said:
... of course, that might just mean that Karin already knows what's causing it. And is beating herself up about it inside.
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Indeed. Every time she looks at Cattleya, sees her daughter coughing up her lifesblood, she knows it's ultimately her fault. Absolutely delicious. :3
EarthScorpion said:
I wonder how many female mages have manticores, and how that would affect the population dynamics of the condition, if it was linked to maternal infection while pregnant in some way rather than direct infection?
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I'm not necessarily sure people would realize the cause if it worked like that. I mean, the causal link is a lot more tenuous to someone who doesn't understand microbiology.

"Spend time around manticore -> infection" is a lot simpler and more straightforward than "spent time around manticore while being pregnant -> infection of offspring", particularly since people will be cognitively biased towards "but I spend plenty of time around old mantie and I'm perfectly fine!"
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Cpl_Facehugger said:
Yeah, that "symptoms show up elsewhere when treated" sounds a lot more parasitic than hereditary to me.

It's kind of a pity, because I would have loved to include Earthscorpion's idea in Unfamiliar since it fits the focus on Karin so well, but on my second readthrough of the novels for research, I homed in on that "fundamentally wrong with the basis of her body" thing which sounded genetic. Which is also arguably Karin's fault, but a lot less hard hitting to someone unversed in genetic theory than "your daughter is sick because you spent time around your familiar while pregnant."

Oh well, it'll still be useful for Double Zero.
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EarthScorpion said:
To be fair, "fundamentally wrong with the basis of her body" is what the doctors say.

The doctors who either say it because they can't find anything else, or the ones who do find those squirming, crawling, blackish-red worm-parasites crawling in her flesh, after purging them (and missing the eggs), are told to keep to the official story by Karin in no uncertain terms. :D
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So yeah, parasites seem the most likely cause for what is wrong with Cattleya.
 
Personally, I've always wondered if Halkegenia is actually aware of stuff like bacteria and viruses. They're apparently aware of stuff like molecules and atoms, so I've always favoured the idea that they're aware of such things, though without true understanding of them.
 
Larekko12 said:
Why couldn't they kill them with magic?
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EarthScorpion said:
To be fair, "fundamentally wrong with the basis of her body" is what the doctors say.

The doctors who either say it because they can't find anything else, or the ones who do find those squirming, crawling, blackish-red worm-parasites crawling in her flesh, after purging them (and missing the eggs), are told to keep to the official story by Karin in no uncertain terms. :D
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EarthScorpion said:
after purging them (and missing the eggs)
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EarthScorpion said:
missing the eggs
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...I dunno. Why don't you tell me.
 
NecroMechanoid said:
Should they know about molecules and atoms? When I heard that in the anime, yes I know not the reliable, it just threw me off for a second. But I'm still questioning it.
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It's mentioned in the Light Novels as well. By the Prayer Book in Volume 3, Vittorio in Volume 8 and Derflinger in Volume 9. Here's the quotes:
Volume 3 said:
Foreword.
Henceforth, I shall record the truth I know. All materials in the world are comprised of fine grains. The four branches intervene with these fine grains and apply an influence, which transform them into spells. This was how "Fire", "Water", "Wind" and "Earth" became.
Louise was filled with curiosity. With an impatient feeling, she turned the page.
The gods bestowed upon me a greater strength. The fine grains, which the four branches bore influence over, are comprised of even finer grains. The power bestowed upon me by the gods, does not belong to any of the four. The branch I wield intervenes with even finer grains and applies an influence, transforming them into spells. A Zero that belongs to neither of the four. This so-called Zero is "Void". I name the Zero the gods have bestowed upon me "Void".
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Volume 8 said:
"All substance in the world is made from small grains. Grains smaller than water drops or sand. As clarified in our recent theology, the four elements' spells control them."
"Fuum."
"But those grains are made from even smaller grains. It is said, that those smaller grains are what Void controls."
"So what?"
"Following the Founder's mind, and 'four of four' would gather… It would be a completely loose situation… in case of the complete Founder's Void's power resurrection, the Void spell might have a dreadful effect. Furthermore, the smallest grains' effect could be so big that it may change this world's existence completely… In fact, there is such a spell mentioned in the prophecy."
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Volume 9 said:
"Magic elements govern small grains. Void governs even smaller particles…"
"Exactly. One can control a person's brain with the help of those small particles. Memory and thoughts are connected with those small particles. 'Friendliness' and 'hostility' are just matter of difference in the flow of these small particles that void can change. However, 'forgetting' Void is different. It goes even further into these small grains and erases their existence completely of the central smallest particles."
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Now, I wouldn't say they actually understand them, but they definitely know about them.

They also seem to be aware of microorganisms, and possible the process of their breakdown:
Volume 3 said:
"I analyzed the composition of the oil you gave me," said Colbert proudly.
"It seemed to be made from microorganisms in fossils, so I searched for something similar. I decided to use the fossils of trees… in other words coal. I soaked that in a special catalyst and extracted a similar composition. After spending days doing that, I cast the alchemy spell on it. And that turned it into…"
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The fact that Colbert knew what he was looking at, suggests they're aware of the chemical reactions and the degradation/breakdown of biological matter, and it's general composition.
 
The concept of atoms and molecules has been around since the 6th century BC. So them having the concept of them isn't too surprising. And the modern understanding of molecules and atoms started appearing in the early-mid 17th century, the same period Halkegenia is based on.

The fact that they seem to have confirmed the existence of such things is more surprising, but I chalk that up to their use of magic helping them confirm the theory far earlier then we did.

Now, whether they have actual understanding of the all the forces, reactions and process of such things, that's a different matter. They seem to lump everything into the same category, aka "small grains".

Derflingers quote also seems to suggest they have a basic understanding of synapses and their usage.
 
Larekko12 said:
I meant why are they missin the eggs if they can do such a thorough purge.
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Eggs are self contained. They don't need to take in outside nutrients to survive, furthermore they have shells that can protect them from heat and what have you. Anything capable of rendering Eggs completely useless is more than capable of killing a full grown organism like the host of said parasites.
 
NecroMechanoid said:
Okay, I'm far from an expert, but I think the word 'particle' existed long before the 17th century, so I can accept that. Unless I'm wrong.

But atoms and molecules.......okay, if both were discovered in the 17th century than I can see Halk knowing of them. But the name.......I'm withholding on that.
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The word and concept of an atom originates with the ancient Greeks, actually. It hasn't actually got much in the way of relationship with modern chemistry and physics (classical Greek atoms were indestructible and indivisible, for example), but the idea that 'everything is made up of small grains' is pretty much exactly the same. They probably wouldn't have the name (they don't appear to have had an ancient Greek equivalent), but there's nothing to say they wouldn't have the concept of 'everything is formed of collections of very tiny things.
 
neh, too much feminine. Kirito would only wear a skirt if Asuma made him.

Also Midori is DFC.
 
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