- Location
- The underworld
yes but only the first, the rest were very good to the natives
others were pretty good to the natives hell even the spanish about half the time were ok to the natives (cough central america cough)
Guns, Germs, and Good Intentions - American Indian Reservations ISOTed to 1418
- Thread starter ScottishMongol
- Start date
- Timeline Supernatural
-
- Tags
- isot (isekai) timeline america
others were pretty good to the natives hell even the spanish about half the time were ok to the natives (cough central america cough)
- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I...would not use the term "very good" to refer to how Europeans of any nationality treated Native Americans. Native Americans of every tribe on both continents have faced forced removal, imperialistic wars, economic and political disenfranchisement, cultural genocide, and outright attempted ethnic cleansing.
- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Hmm. Yeah. Fuck off with that.
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- Location
- United Kingdom
- Pronouns
- She/Her
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- Location
- France
- Pronouns
- She/They
I hope this doesn't result in modern reservations introducing modern views on private ownership of land. They probably know better since they were at the bottom of that ladder for the most part, but you never know.
- Location
- The underworld
i see i am wasting my time have a debating with a small minded person incapable of having reasonable argument like a normal thinking being and try to convince me to there point of view
and is instead reduced to pouring out bile and spite
have a good day sir
a very good argument
i would have liked more statistics to backs his argument
it feel a bit like a straw-man argument as they are using different definitions
because wow the UN definition is amazing broad, any atrocity targeted at group can be genocide
i thought genocide was a government sponsored systematic purge of an ethnic group
i guess we both are technicality right, well you learn something new every day
Zachanassian
Putting the "trans" in Transleithania
- Location
- Crabtown USA
If I had to hazard a guess as to how European contact would go, there will be a brief period of conflict as the Europeans try to colonize as they did OTL. Presumably, given the technological advantage, the Federation-Americans will utterly wipe the floor with the Europeans. There will probably be a huge debate within the Federation as to whether to trade with the Europeans, whether to isolate themselves like Sakoku-era Japan or pursue limited relations. There's not really much the Europeans have to offer they wouldn't already have in America, so it's not like money would be a huge factor. Keeping Europe from advancing too quickly and overwhelming America through sheer numbers would be in everyone's interests.
Though, if trade is restricted, I can easily foresee smuggling and a black market done by those seeking to make some quick and easy cash. Even a high school textbook would fetch a pretty sum in Europe, so it's going to be really hard to keep stuff from leaking.
Also, white supremacy isn't really thing yet in Europe at this point, but I could also see there might be some dislocated white Americans who could hold such views, and try to rile things up in uptime Europe. Additionally, given most of the New Americans are Christian (of varying degrees) and come from a culture heavily influenced by Europeans, the uptime Europeans might not actually view the Federation as a "native" state.
Though, if trade is restricted, I can easily foresee smuggling and a black market done by those seeking to make some quick and easy cash. Even a high school textbook would fetch a pretty sum in Europe, so it's going to be really hard to keep stuff from leaking.
Also, white supremacy isn't really thing yet in Europe at this point, but I could also see there might be some dislocated white Americans who could hold such views, and try to rile things up in uptime Europe. Additionally, given most of the New Americans are Christian (of varying degrees) and come from a culture heavily influenced by Europeans, the uptime Europeans might not actually view the Federation as a "native" state.
- Location
- Don't know where I'm going
You've got a lot of nerve calling someone small minded when you won't even capitalize the first words in your sentences. The kind of nonsense you're talking is blatant apologia for a bloody history of settler colonialism, theft, and, yes, genocide on a massive scale. Arguing over sticking points like the legal definition of genocide in this context is ahistorical and, more to the point, can only serve to defend the treatment of Native Americans by white settlers.
This is not an argument undertaken in good faith, and she is telling you to fuck off with this disgusting nonsense because she has better self control than me and doesn't stoop to arguing with idiots.
- Location
- Puerto Rico
If they made Trade agreements similar to the Japanese with the Dutchs being exclusive to trade, which nation would likely get the exclusivity?
Also is there banking system? And since the rothschild-rockefeler are not thing in this timeline, how is likely the banks and currency print is to became their property enter their monopoly?
Also is there banking system? And since the rothschild-rockefeler are not thing in this timeline, how is likely the banks and currency print is to became their property enter their monopoly?
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- Location
- Patriarchova
I don't think the Federation is going to be able to control the entire continent by 1492. Certainly not well enough to police and defend all its coasts. That said, they know to have a welcoming committee ready in the Caribbean for Columbus' arrival, so they can buy themselves more time if need be.
I also don't think there are going to be any white identitarian types left by then.
We Just Write
Blatantly Plural
- Location
- New England
- Pronouns
- Plural
Come to think of it, would the Federation try running Espionage ops in Europe prior to the 'official' First Contact? They should be more than capable of doing so, and they've got plenty of incentives to give it a go.
- Location
- Puerto Rico
They could if there was any soldier or foreign agent in one of the reservations to train the future spies and soldiers. Thought its highly likely they would start spying on each other before the european.
- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
There are no real banks worth speaking of. Eventually the Federation will charter a central bank to manage its currency, but we'll get to that later.
Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- Plural/They/He/Her
It's entirely probable they can police the Atlantic (and Gulf) coast (mostly) by the time Columbus shows up, at any rate. Even then, it was still awhile yet until the mainland was found. Even longer until you have to worry about the West Coast or anything, so if most of the efforts are concentrated on keeping settlers out of the East...
(mind you, this all assumes that Columbus even shows up. Butterflies are a thing, and we don't know how wide that particular net is yet)
Insofar as 'trading with Europeans' goes, the English are probably a big one since they aren't really powerful yet, but they share a common language (discounting the fact that English-of-the-15th-Century is going to be missing so many loan words compared to 21st Century English, even without whatever mixing comes in from the downtime Native languages).
...actually, in hindsight, the English that England speaks is going to make little sense to the Americas and vise-versa. Similar enough to freak out England, but otherwise...
Anyway. England is probably a notable option. Maybe France if you want to piss off Spain. I doubt the Spanish will get much trade at first, since they're the biggest colonial types right now. Unless they don't take over Mexico, in which case, their Empire is stillborn without all that juicy gold.
(mind you, this all assumes that Columbus even shows up. Butterflies are a thing, and we don't know how wide that particular net is yet)
Insofar as 'trading with Europeans' goes, the English are probably a big one since they aren't really powerful yet, but they share a common language (discounting the fact that English-of-the-15th-Century is going to be missing so many loan words compared to 21st Century English, even without whatever mixing comes in from the downtime Native languages).
...actually, in hindsight, the English that England speaks is going to make little sense to the Americas and vise-versa. Similar enough to freak out England, but otherwise...
Anyway. England is probably a notable option. Maybe France if you want to piss off Spain. I doubt the Spanish will get much trade at first, since they're the biggest colonial types right now. Unless they don't take over Mexico, in which case, their Empire is stillborn without all that juicy gold.
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the atom
Anarcho-Kemalist Thought Leader
- Location
- Comfortably numb
I wouldn't be so sure that Europeans are even going to be the ones making first contact
Caelleh
Fine Arts Patron~♡
- Location
- DFW Metroplex
You thinking of Zhang He? That'd be pretty cool, though I'm not sure the timeline would match up.
the atom
Anarcho-Kemalist Thought Leader
- Location
- Comfortably numb
No I meant the Native Americans will probably be the ones to make contact with Europe.
Jamie Roberts
Hávamál 127
- Location
- N/A
- Pronouns
- she/her
I think he means that the Americas will be going to Europe first, but I can't really imagine why they would do that. Its not like Europe has anything of great value; their main advantages historically were just large amounts of farmland leading to higher populations and sitting on the Eurasian East-West axis, thus letting them advance more quickly thanks to easier communication with more people. Other than that, the place is kind of a hole. And its not even like Medieval Catholics made for uniquely enticing conversation or anything.
- Location
- Patriarchova
Perhaps I'm seriously underestimating the amount of resources and scientific know-how the reservations have. From what I know they tend to be pretty poor and lacking in modern industry (with a handful of exceptions), and people who manage to get a good education often leave them.
- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
This is true, but keep in mind the reservations don't need to be building battleships in 75 years or anything. Even if they can only manage sailing ships and cannons they would still probably be more advanced than anything built in the 1400s.
- Location
- Puerto Rico
Also would people speak to the European about coming from the future or make it sound like a myth/tale passed down to speak of their origins?
Ie
My great grandfather told me how ancestors came. My great grand before coming here was in a tour through ancestral lands before before a myatical light consumed them with their cities.
Ie
My great grandfather told me how ancestors came. My great grand before coming here was in a tour through ancestral lands before before a myatical light consumed them with their cities.
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Rear Mirrors
Cynic
- Location
- Seattle, Washington, USA
Actually, you could go contact the Norse first, they had settlements in Greenland the previous century, and you go island hop from them to Iceland and then to either the British Isles or further to Scandinavia.
I could see the American Federation ending up redoing the whole Monroe Doctrine four centuries ahead of time for good (ending slavery and human sacrifices/cannibalism, defending against European Colonialism, etc.) and then there is the bad (A repeat of the Banana Republics come to mind).
Though is the ISOT our universe, or a parallel one with extreme similarities? I prefer the latter, as the former is pretty squicky. (To clarify by parallel, example Bob ate a sandwich in out universe for lunch, but in the other universe, Bob ate Chinese.)
I could see the American Federation ending up redoing the whole Monroe Doctrine four centuries ahead of time for good (ending slavery and human sacrifices/cannibalism, defending against European Colonialism, etc.) and then there is the bad (A repeat of the Banana Republics come to mind).
Though is the ISOT our universe, or a parallel one with extreme similarities? I prefer the latter, as the former is pretty squicky. (To clarify by parallel, example Bob ate a sandwich in out universe for lunch, but in the other universe, Bob ate Chinese.)
We Just Write
Blatantly Plural
- Location
- New England
- Pronouns
- Plural
Honestly, the simplest explanation is that the timeline forked at the instant of the uptimer's arrival.
- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Great discussion, just as a general response to some points:
Essentially, the translocation created a timeline that branched off from our own. If you like, you can even imagine that the reservations were copied and pasted into the past rather than actually disappearing from our present day. I don't have a "unified setting" but if I did it would contain hundreds of parallel universes.
As for the question of contact, I'm not a butterfly purist. If I was, then the change in land area covered by crops and the emissions from new industries in the New World would change weather patterns, ensuring that even in the Old World people's births, deaths, and livelihoods could be changed subtly.
However, for the purposes of this story, Columbus will still be born in 1951, still go to sea for a living, and still gain employment with the Spanish Empire to seek a westward route to the Indies. That said...
The reservations certainly believe something Should Be Done about Columbus when he arrives, and until then contact with Europe should not be made. However, the 15th Century Natives may not be so convinced of the necessity of doing so, and finding ways to prevent them from breaking the quarantine will factor into Federation politics in the future. Remember that by the time Columbus does arrive, the youngest people who remember life before the translocation will be in their nineties (and there won't be very many of them). The role European contact played on the Natives in our history will be impressed on the Federation's future generations through schooling and history books, but this itself factors into views about the translocation and how that will change over time.
Safe to say, it will be regarded as a historic fact by the well-informed - there's too much physical evidence, too much documentation, and its the only reasonable explanation for the history of this timeline. A rather different matter is what it means practically, how important it is to people's decisions, and whether it's actually relevant anymore...that will vary from person to person.
Essentially, the translocation created a timeline that branched off from our own. If you like, you can even imagine that the reservations were copied and pasted into the past rather than actually disappearing from our present day. I don't have a "unified setting" but if I did it would contain hundreds of parallel universes.
As for the question of contact, I'm not a butterfly purist. If I was, then the change in land area covered by crops and the emissions from new industries in the New World would change weather patterns, ensuring that even in the Old World people's births, deaths, and livelihoods could be changed subtly.
However, for the purposes of this story, Columbus will still be born in 1951, still go to sea for a living, and still gain employment with the Spanish Empire to seek a westward route to the Indies. That said...
The reservations certainly believe something Should Be Done about Columbus when he arrives, and until then contact with Europe should not be made. However, the 15th Century Natives may not be so convinced of the necessity of doing so, and finding ways to prevent them from breaking the quarantine will factor into Federation politics in the future. Remember that by the time Columbus does arrive, the youngest people who remember life before the translocation will be in their nineties (and there won't be very many of them). The role European contact played on the Natives in our history will be impressed on the Federation's future generations through schooling and history books, but this itself factors into views about the translocation and how that will change over time.
Safe to say, it will be regarded as a historic fact by the well-informed - there's too much physical evidence, too much documentation, and its the only reasonable explanation for the history of this timeline. A rather different matter is what it means practically, how important it is to people's decisions, and whether it's actually relevant anymore...that will vary from person to person.
We Just Write
Blatantly Plural
- Location
- New England
- Pronouns
- Plural
Ah hah! I knew Columbus was a time traveller!