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GODSTAR - a Science Fantasy Civilization Quest

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Also, I am a little concerned that getting to much Cultivation research done absent mass immortality could result in a privileged class of people with access to Immortality and time to cultivate moving towards becoming a superhuman aristocracy.
 
[] Plan: Save the Watchtower, Save the World (Living in Space Remix)
-[] Political: Establish relations with the Home Isles.
-[] Military: Invade the Tech Barons.
-[] Expeditions: Expedition to the New World.
-[] Matsci: Orbital Infrastructure (2/2)
-[] Matsci: Space Stations (2/2)
-[] Matsci: Power of the Atom (2/2)
-[] Socsci: Officer Academy (2/2)
-[] Socsci: Vaccination (2/2)
-[] Socsci: Islamic Finance (2/2)
-[] Exosci: Study Homunculi (3/3)
-[] Exosci: Salnitre Emitter (3/3)
-[] Exosci: Cultivation Tier 1 (2/3)
-[] Cold War: Ideological Debate
-[] Cold War: Joint Space Program

Okay, following some clarifications about the Watchtower from SM (namely that the specific prereqs for that expedition are Orbital Infrastructure + Space Stations, and then we can get there, and that they definitely have a nuclear reactor), and talking to people about the value of living in space, I swapped the alchemical engines out and moved Cultivation back into the incomplete slot so we can finish it next turn and have a better setup all around for the difficulties of living in space.

This does lose us spaceplanes in favor of finishing Power of the Atom, which is maybe slightly worse versus the Tech Barons but means we're not marginally militarizing space while starting the Joint Space Program, which may be diplomatically useful, and it lets us potentially help fix the station.
 
I like that we're trying to keep space peaceful and debating with the Machine Army. We don't want a war ultimately. We're coming to terms with coexistence with each other. Atomic power is really useful in a variety of ways. We could get nuclear engines for rockets from it but Suspended Mercury Engine sounds more efficient. The artificial gravity is useful for long term space habitation, given turns last a generation that'd make our version of the ISS much more efficient and safe for human living.
 
I'm ok with the Save the Watchtower, Save the World (Living in Space Remix) plan.

If we need Orbital Infrastructure + Space Stations for the watchtower and they have nuclear reactor there, then there is no need to think much else I think.

Officer Academy is also needed alongside Vaccination. For some reason I'd rather pick Banks instead of Islamic Finance (develop regulations ourselves first, then borrow from others) but I'm fine either way.

Study Homunculi and Salnitre Emitter are amazing and Cultivation Tier 1 might help in space, even incomplete (after all at 2/3 we are more then halfway there and people we send to space would be the best of the best right?).

Joint Space Program is also fine.

The only thing I'd change would be Project: World Health Program instead of Ideological Debate because it should rise the relations with Machine Army while Debate might actually make them worse. At the same time if there is a good reason for a debate then I would also be fine with that.
 
I'm in on Save the Watchtower, Save the World (Living in Space Remix). If the Watchtower already has a nuclear reactor and we're headed right for saving them, I'm a lot less concerned about Power of the Atom, since that secret will be getting out whether we research it or not.
 
To clarify, here is what you guys know about the Watchtower:

1) They have a functional life support system but it requires heavy maintenance - you have this capability.
2) They have some sort of reactor keeping them alive that is nearing the end of its operational lifespan - you do not know what this is, but you may assume it is nuclear.
3) They require some form of artificial gravity in order to survive - you do not know how to do this.
4) They worship the ship somehow in order to extend its lifespan - you don't know the specifics, but you have advanced knowledge of machine spirits.
5) They have said very little on their social system.

Someone specifically asked if the Suspended Mercury Engine or the Salnitre Emitter was necessary to reach the Watchtower, I slipped up and revealed the prerequisites for unlocked space expeditions (although it was probably going to get unlocked next turn no matter what).
 
Knkspl said:
The only thing I'd change would be Project: World Health Program instead of Ideological Debate because it should rise the relations with Machine Army while Debate might actually make them worse. At the same time if there is a good reason for a debate then I would also be fine with that.
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Every open action gives us another influence point (and thus cold war action) next turn, while every hostile action loses us a point. Joint Projects do big cool stuff, but don't affect total influence.

And I think Debate is ultimately good for both of us: it makes us both articulate our ideas more specifically and in the face of pointed criticism. It's an open action and not a hostile action for a reason: it's a serious engagement with each other and not just a bad faith propaganda campaign with no discretion.
 
If we get an Influence from that then I'm ok with it. What I was a little afraid of is that instead of convincing one another we might unintentionally start a huge argument that would split us more, but if it should be good for us then that probably won't happen.
 
Potato Anarchy said:
And I think Debate is ultimately good for both of us: it makes us both articulate our ideas more specifically and in the face of pointed criticism. It's an open action and not a hostile action for a reason: it's a serious engagement with each other and not just a bad faith propaganda campaign with no discretion.
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I think we should wait to do Ideological Debate. Get World Health Program, Ecological Restoration, or both done first. Give the man on the street some tangible evidence of how well our system works. Joint Space Program is cool and all, but your average Joe probably won't be significantly affected by it.
 
The reason Debate is an open action is because it goes both ways. The Machine Army has a sophisticated ideology to justify their system, opening yourself up to debate may convince people their way is better, especially if they offer some genuine critiques of your system. Or at least, it may lead to segments of your society being influenced by their ideology in some way.

However, Open Actions improve your relationship because ultimately they're about exchange. With Ideological Debate, you come to understand each others' point of view, adopt aspects of each others' woldviews, and display a willingness to have your own ideas challenged and maybe even accept critiques and address your own flaws.

And, of course, there are very obvious benefits if you are able to convince more of them that your way of life is superior.
 
[] Plan: Responsible Acceleration
-[] Political: Establish relations with the Home Isles.
-[] Military: Invade the Tech Barons.
-[] Expeditions: Expedition to the New World.
-[] Matsci: Orbital Infrastructure (2/2)
-[] Matsci: Space Stations (2/2)
-[] Matsci: Food Trucks (2/2)
-[] Socsci: Banking (2/2)
-[] Socsci: Vaccination (2/2)
-[] Socsci: Islamic Finance (2/2)
-[] Exosci: Study Homunculi (3/3)
-[] Exosci: Magical Automation (3/3)
-[] Salnitre Emitter (1/3)
-[] Spirit Radios (1/1)
-[] Cold War: World Health Program
-[] Cold War: Joint Space Program

I can't support the current consensus plan because in my opinion it digs us deeper into the hole we dug for ourselves by picking currency. We absolutely need banking because as the QM confirmed on discord our currency is virtually uncontrolled right now. We absolutely need to get on that before inflation, deflation or worst of all stagflation hits us. Not implementing a sensible taxation system and basic banking is massively half-assing it. We voted to implement currency last turn and now we have to spend the points to make it functional. If we don't take measures now to control inflation once the post-war economic boom inevitably ends there is no telling to how the system will react.

Homunculi, Magical Automation and Food Trucks are necessary acceleration to break through the cycle of unsustainable growth and crisis that is clearly taking shape right now. The strong position our workers are in right now is a mirage. The labour shortage gives them strength but it isn't a sustainable position that actually strengthens them as a class. Food trucks & automation will allow us to break through that cycle by taking steps towards true-post scarcity. Delaying their introduction is merely going to give workers a falsely inflated position of strength that is going to bite them once a recession inevitably hits us. Homunculi as our first true step into magical transhumanism have the potential to ignite a magical & social revolution that might allow us to break the settling consensus of merchant domination.

When it comes to Cold War actions its important to remember that this is our big moment in the sun. Doing two projects with the MAAUH creates an institutional framework that is going to show the value of cooperation. We need to prevent the militarization of space and kick off a global health revolution that will make everyone healthier and happier. Especially with the looming risk of escalating bioweapons use by the Tech Barons we are going to attack next turn.
 
Personally, I can't support any plan that doesn't roll out vaccines right away. Sharing vaccine tech with absolutely everyone is one of the very few thing we got right as a species, and it's going to directly save more lives than literally anything else we could do except immortality.

Sitting on such a humanitarian tech for 30 years just to reform our officer corps is cometely unacceptable to me.
 
The thing is, getting vaccines would be nice to extend lifespans but dying isn't as critical as it is in real life as you'll still 'live' even after your body has died.
 
I don't agree with the acceleration logic at all, but the plan is mostly fine. My biggest problems with it are

- Food Trucks. Don't want to disrupt our connection to nature when it's already under stress unless there's a clear and immediate benefit, which I don't agree the acceleration amounts to.
- Magical Automation. I think the disruptive effects here will be bad for workers and for class balance in general, and we should have more social reforms in place before charging into it. I don't think it will reliably hurt Merchant power.
- I simply cannot imagine taking a plan without an open action in it at this point. Influence is too useful and we've barely spent time building it up.
 
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Potato Anarchy said:
I don't agree with the acceleration logic at all, but the plan is mostly fine. My biggest problems with it are

- Food Trucks. Don't want to disrupt our connection to nature when it's already under stress unless there's a clear and immediate benefit, which I don't agree the acceleration amounts to.
- Magical Automation. I think the disruptive effects here will be bad for workers and for class balance in general, and we should have more social reforms in place before charging into it. I don't think it will reliably hurt Merchant power.
- I simply cannot imagine taking a plan without an open action in it at this point. Influence is too useful and we've barely spent time building it up.
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To quote big M himself:

Capital employs machinery, rather, only to the extent that it enables the worker to work a larger part of his time for capital, to relate to a larger part of his time as time which does not belong to him, to work longer for another. Through this process, the amount of labour necessary for the production of a given object is indeed reduced to a minimum, but only in order to realise a maximum of labour in the maximum number of such objects. The first aspect is important, because capital here – quite unintentionally – reduces human labour … to a minimum. This will redound to the benefit of emancipated labour, and is the condition of its emancipation.

Not picking banking seems like the bad kind of acceleration to me though. Islamic finance is not going to be enough to stabilize the economic system of a rapidly growing superpower.
 
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[X] Plan: To the Stars and the Future
-[X] Political: Establish relations with the Home Isles.
-[X] Military: Invade the Tech Barons.
-[X] Expeditions: Expedition to the New World.
-[X] Matsci: Orbital Infrastructure (2/2)
-[X] Matsci: Space Stations (2/2)
-[X] Matsci: Power of the Atom (2/2)
-[X] Socsci: Banking (2/2)
-[X] Socsci: Vaccination (2/2)
-[X] Socsci: Islamic Finance (2/2)
-[X] Exosci: Study Homunculi (3/3)
-[X] Exosci: Salnitre Emitter (3/3)
-[X] Exosci: Cultivation Tier 1 (2/3)
-[X] Cold War: Research Collaboration
-[X] Cold War: Joint Space Program

I'm generally fine with existing plans, but I'd like to offer an alternative regardless.

I advocated very strongly for Officer Academy last turn (against some of the same people now arguing for it :V), but I can't support it now. Yes, we're going to war against the Tech Barons, but I think they don't stand any realistic chance against us + the Machine Army of Living Metal, especially since the MALM rolled a 98 (!) on War Planning. IMO it's no longer urgent; we'll likely need it eventually, but right now we'd be better off with other SocSci options.
Among those options, I'm still undecided - I'm hoping the QM will clarify whether Islamic Finance covers Islamic banking practices before making a decision on Banking vs. Literacy. She said it doesn't include it unless we also take Banking 😔

Taking Magical Automation right now seems like ill-advised accelerationism - how does weakening the position of the working class help right now? I think it'll just result in more workers getting fired when the boom times end and a big recession hits. I think we need to lay more groundwork before Automation can be helpful to them. Food Trucks are great in general (and in vat form, may be crucial for space projects!), but hopefully we can get them through Research Collaboration.

Anchises and spiritualatheist make a good point about vaccines and the World Health Program, but unfortunately we really need an Open Action to keep building Influence with the MAAUH. Between the two programs, the Joint Space Program is IMO more time-sensitive (failing to prevent militarization of space could have consequences far more disastrous than partially delaying global vaccine rollout).

Among Open Actions, I'd prefer the material commitments of Research Collaboration over Ideological Debate. (Do we even want to convince them that a merchant-run system is superior? Conversely, do we want some of our people at least partially convinced of the value of a hierarchical army-state or a command/palace economy? I worry about unintended consequences here.)
Research Collaboration could help us get techs like Food Trucks, "spiritual cultivation through meditative practices", "magnets... in practical industrial applications, such as maglev trains", "radio that allows them to communicate with spirits", "advanced mechanical augmentations and prosthetics", and maybe more! (Quotes from the Turn 8 diplomatic contact action with the MAAUH)

Edit: approval voting
[X] Plan: Saving the Watchtower And Also Inflation Bad
 
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Potato Anarchy said:
- Food Trucks. Don't want to disrupt our connection to nature when it's already under stress unless there's a clear and immediate benefit, which I don't agree the acceleration amounts to.
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I know I said this in the past so it's not like, wrong, but Food Trucks are really one of those techs that are more useful at a certain point in your development and less useful at another. So like, right now food trucks would be a big help if you were trying to, say, colonize another planet.
 
ScottishMongol said:
I know I said this in the past so it's not like, wrong, but Food Trucks are really one of those techs that are more useful at a certain point in your development and less useful at another. So like, right now food trucks would be a big help if you were trying to, say, colonize another planet.
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Makes sense! I just don't think the Watchtower is that project and so we can still wait another turn or a few.
 
ScottishMongol said:
Unite - 55% (I swear to God this is real they just manage completely average rolls every turn these poor schmucks)

The Tech Barons are shocked by how quickly you have managed to expand, industrialize, and defeat a world power in open war. They are beginning to truly understand their position, as a small, stagnant collection of squabbling factions surrounded by greater powers. If only acknowledging that actually helped them do anything about it.
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[X] Plan: Save the Watchtower, Save the World (Living in Space Remix)
-[X] Political: Establish relations with the Home Isles.
-[X] Military: Invade the Tech Barons.
-[X] Expeditions: Expedition to the New World.
-[X] Matsci: Orbital Infrastructure (2/2)
-[X] Matsci: Space Stations (2/2)
-[X] Matsci: Power of the Atom (2/2)
-[X] Socsci: Officer Academy (2/2)
-[X] Socsci: Vaccination (2/2)
-[X] Socsci: Islamic Finance (2/2)
-[X] Exosci: Study Homunculi (3/3)
-[X] Exosci: Salnitre Emitter (3/3)
-[X] Exosci: Cultivation Tier 1 (2/3)
-[X] Cold War: Ideological Debate
-[X] Cold War: Joint Space Program

Longest explanation for the plan is here.

EDIT: Adding some approval vote because I would like Banking.

[X] Plan: Saving the Watchtower And Also Inflation Bad
[X] Plan: To the Stars and the Future
 
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