GODSTAR - a Science Fantasy Civilization Quest

The mechanisms for governments or various other structures to give lower classes class mobility, or for merchants to share their network of contacts with anyone willing to try their shot already exist, yet thats not what happens in the league and you've failed to establish why currency would change this.

Ultimately, nyvis and other people have suggesting that merchants will continue to do the things they've already done. That being accumulate and concentrate while using said capital to further their already influence of the government for their benefit.

I think it's fair to be skeptical of the insistence that the adoption of currency will change merchant behavior when you proposed a mechanism or motive for why this change would do so.

The merchants are partially able to do that because they have an effective monopoly on having capital at all. That's not the only thing in play by any means, but it's sure as hell a contributing factor and while adding currency doesn't completely break that monopoly it's certainly a step in the right direction as it allows non-merchants to have and accumulate capital, something that is currently effectively impossible.

Currency won't solve the merchant problem, and I never said it would, but it should make the situation somewhat better rather than somewhat worse.

But none of this really make those new rising merchants an answer to the issue with the old ones, even assuming they get the support to displace them.

I'm not actually saying it does? I think it might make the problem slightly less severe, but it doesn't solve it because the problem is societal rather than economic. Currency doesn't magically fix that...it just also doesn't make it any worse, and due to chipping away at one of the pillars of merchant power slightly, probably improves the situation slightly.
 
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I'm not actually saying it does? I think it might make the problem slightly less severe, but it doesn't solve it because the problem is societal rather than economic. Currency doesn't magically fix that...it just also doesn't make it any worse, and due to chipping away at one of the pillars of merchant power slightly, probably improves the situation slightly.

Why wouldn't it make it worse? It multiplies their power by making it much easier to leverage wealth. It doesn't chip away at the power of the merchants as a class at all, it massively reinforce them, even if it might force some new blood in that class.

I'm pretty sure they're pushing for this, the idea that this is a blow for them is coming out of nowhere and supported by nothing.
 
...The option sais it strengthens the merchants, and yet...
[] Currency (0/1)
At the moment, barter is the only method of trade there is. However, your merchants would have a much easier time if there were, say, a system of tokens that could easily be exchanged for goods and services. Maybe we could use some of the more useless metals, or some similarly difficult to find material.
Perhaps, is it because the choice would actually weaken the hold of the historians thanks to the current system?
Increasingly, the family is a less important vehicle of social organization. Urbanization and mass social movements have meant that many people exist outside the extended family unit (although the family is still quite strong culturally and socially). They are organized by guilds and labor councils, which provide insurance to their members among other things, replacing the aforementioned system of social debt. They're also more reliant on state programs which are run by Historian-bureaucrats. Merchants are still powerful, but increasingly reliant on state infrastructure like the railway system.
 
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The merchants are partially able to do that because they have an effective monopoly on having capital at all. That's not the only thing in play by any means, but it's sure as hell a contributing factor and while adding currency doesn't completely break that monopoly it's certainly a step in the right direction as it allows non-merchants to have and accumulate capital, something that is currently effectively impossible.

Currency won't solve the merchant problem, and I never said it would, but it should make the situation somewhat better rather than somewhat worse.

Genuine question if you think this is the case. Why didn't this cause a eruption of social mobility and weakening of merchant power, rather then its immense strengthening said classes power and further concentrating wealth while commidifying formerly communal goods as it did in real life?

What specific difference do you think exist in true people society 5o make this turn out differently? Keep in mind, if you think this is tradition and social values, a great many if not all of these traditions and values were heavily present in the societies I spoke about too, in places where merchants weren't even necessarily at the top of the totem people, even in places that placed a hedecision making. Community consensus in decisionmaking.

These things did not prevent the repeated, over and over across desperate societies, trends I spoke of.

What specifically prevents them in the case of the True people?
 
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Why wouldn't it make it worse? It multiplies their power by making it much easier to leverage wealth. It doesn't chip away at the power of the merchants as a class at all, it massively reinforce them, even if it might force some new blood in that class.

I'm pretty sure they're pushing for this, the idea that this is a blow for them is coming out of nowhere and supported by nothing.

Well, for one thing because they already have access to currency if they want, via Sanctuary. Adding a general currency makes trade in general easier, simpler, and more convenient. It makes interacting with the economy more efficient and require less expertise. That makes the merchant's lives easier, sure, but it also allows non-merchants to interact with it at all without going through a merchant.

Right now, interacting with the economy requires going through a specialist (ie: a Merchant). Removing the need for that specialist for easy tasks absolutely improves the lives of the specialists (as they don't have to constantly deal with the same pedestrian requests), but it also diminishes their power slightly, as they are no longer a bottleneck in the ability of others to access the economy.

Like, being the bottleneck in a distribution chain is kind of subjectively awful, while simultaneously being objectively powerful. This removes the bottleneck.

Genuine question if you think this is the case. Why didn't this cause a eruption of social mobility and weakening of merchant power, rather then its immense strengthening in real life?

Giving currency to everyone rather than a few people (which is the current situation in this Quest...merchants already have currency access pretty explicitly if they want it) did cause a huge eruption of social mobility in real life. The rise of the merchant class as a thing in real life was one of the first steps in eroding the power of the hereditary nobility and, at least early on, one of the few ways for non-nobles to get power. There were certainly also a wide variety of horrible side effects due to, well, a lot of different things but peasants suddenly having a way to acquire resources that wasn't 'inherit land somehow' was pretty unambiguously a big increase in their social mobility.

It didn't weaken merchant power in real life because, in real life, merchants were not the ones who had an effective monopoly on having capital before currency became widespread, that was the nobility. The merchant class in this Quest, despite being called that and interested in economics, actually bears precious little resemblance to any real world merchant class due to the utter absence of hereditary nobility and have sort of organically taken over some of the advantages of that real world social class in its absence.

Like, real world merchants have never enjoyed the kind of monopoly those of the True People are enjoying right now. Every time some group has, removing it has cost the group that does have such a monopoly some degree of their power. Usually given to the new groups most inclined to make use of their new advantages. In real life, that beneficiary was certainly generally the merchants...but just because the real world merchant class and that of the True People share a name doesn't mean they work the same, the two are extremely divergent in a variety of ways and acting like anything that was good for real world merchants will likewise be for the merchant class of the True People is simply not true.

What specific difference do you think exist in true people society 5o make this turn out differently? Keep in mind, if you think this is tradition and social values, a great many if not all of these traditions and values were heavily present in the societies I spoke about too, in places where merchants weren't even necessarily at the top of the totem people, even in places that placed a hedecision making. Community consensus in decisionmaking.

It's mostly what I go into above. The core thing is that equating the Merchant Class of the True People with real world merchant classes is not a good idea. They're too divergent in terms of history, power bases, and what privileges they possess. Equating them to hereditary nobility is actually probably closer, in terms of where they derive their power from, though that's not actually even close to right either.

As another factor, a lot of people are also assuming that currency directly equates to, say, private property when that's not actually true. I mentioned before the idea that groups rather than individuals would be the ones who got to accumulate and use currency, and I think that's a pretty plausible direction for the True People to go. Not necessarily a better one, but a different enough one that things would go very differently.

And finally, I'd like to reiterate that this isn't actually introducing currency, it's standardizing it. Right now, Sanctuary has currency (and one that has to be decently stable with at least some basic commodities given they are part of the same polity) and merchants thus have easy access to it and can use it as they see fit. Only random people on the street are unfamiliar with it...economists, merchants, and so on are already using it.

These things did not prevent the repeated, over and over across desperate societies, trends I spoke of.

What specifically prevents them in the case of the True people?

It's not so much that anything prevents them from going that way per se as it is that I think you're equating groups and situations that don't actually map to each other very well. The Merchant Class of the True People are just not the same kind of social class as any real world merchant class, and thus does not act the same or benefit from the same sorts of things.

And again, I'm not saying that currency will magically solve problems, but I have a hard time seeing how reducing their ability to halt everything by simply not doing their jobs makes merchants more powerful.
 
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Currency will absolute fuck up our class balance, societal cohesion, and general economy. Turns last a generation. That means 30 years. People's interests and motives will change during that time, especially once we've introduced a tangible good that can be accumulated for increased power. It'd also mean suddenly everyone now needs currency to survive because instead of transactions being driven by debt or social connections it's by money. You need money to interact with the economy. Those with money now have a direct interest to get more of it by purchasing land, resources, and the means of production. The merchants suddenly have a vested interest to buy out factories because once currency is introduced they'd now need to pay to buy goods to resell them, so vertical integration will start taking place. Workers too will also start to try to sell their goods directly or buy out merchants, leading to increased class conflict between those with control over the means of production and those with money.

It's entirely possible that the workers might retain control over factories and become a wealthy class, except now they're incentivized to increase their profits because now everything else costs money. They might turn into labour aristocracy that treats new and outside workers poorly while the old guard of union leaders funnels more wealth towards themselves. The purposes are so different now. When we introduced industrialization workers worked less because it was boring but they still produced more goods and that was fine because the point was to make enough goods to fulfill people's needs and demands. Now they'll need to work more to make more because money is the name of the game.

It also opens us up to stuff like financial shocks, stock market fluctuations, currency dropping in purchasing power, and other issues that only exist with currency and capitalism. The government may intervene to cut down on this but the government is made up by people drawn from the ruling classes, which at the moment is fairly balanced. What happens when one or two decided to chase money and optimize everything to increase their share of wealth? It fucks up society. We also become far more vulnerable to financial fuckery from the Islanders. Currency doesn't insulate us from them but lets them get more leeway in penetrating our society.

We must evolve into a pseudo-planned economy that cares about social cohesion and fulfilling peoples needs, rather than one that concerns itself with the pursuit of currency. The hypothetical of currency being tightly regulated doesn't absolve this point because if society will look the same except now there's increased tensions and contradictions within government, why introduce currency at all.
 
It also opens us up to stuff like financial shocks, stock market fluctuations, currency dropping in purchasing power, and other issues that only exist with currency and capitalism. The government may intervene to cut down on this but the government is made up by people drawn from the ruling classes, which at the moment is fairly balanced. What happens when one or two decided to chase money and optimize everything to increase their share of wealth? It fucks up society. We also become far more vulnerable to financial fuckery from the Islanders. Currency doesn't insulate us from them but lets them get more leeway in penetrating our society.
Though...
Odds are some of these problems do exist in the system. After all, the value of the goods would fluctuate, affecting the value of the trades, which is why renegotiation is a thing that happens from time to time. The situation changes, the needs change, the value of the goods involved changes.
 
Though...
Odds are some of these problems do exist in the system. After all, the value of the goods would fluctuate, affecting the value of the trades, which is why renegotiation is a thing that happens from time to time. The situation changes, the needs change, the value of the goods involved changes.

Definitely, however I feel currency would make them worse and made it tougher to regulate and keep in check. It won't make it easier to handle and there will be this tension of an easy to track, tough to get thing, i.e. currency, that incentives people to always get more of it.
 
Definitely, however I feel currency would make them worse and made it tougher to regulate and keep in check. It won't make it easier to handle and there will be this tension of an easy to track, tough to get thing, i.e. currency, that incentives people to always get more of it.
I don't get the reasoning, unless you specialize into storing and exchanging goods then accumulating capital is impractical and hard to regulate, obviously currency would help merchants but non-merchant "high earners" (like high level Mechanicals) even more.

Sending coins into underdeveloped regions and communities is also easier than goods and give them more freedom to invest it however they want.
 
Definitely, however I feel currency would make them worse and made it tougher to regulate and keep in check. It won't make it easier to handle and there will be this tension of an easy to track, tough to get thing, i.e. currency, that incentives people to always get more of it.

What are the incentives to get currency that there aren't for valuable trade goods now? Like, some things are always gonna be valuable, and some people are always gonna want to accumulate resources...but the culture of the True People really doesn't encourage that, and lacking currency doesn't make it impossible by any means.

Also, and relevantly, as I've previously stated merchants, the people most likely to indulge in this particular behavior, already have access to currency.
 
[X] Plan: Build the Peace

On the currency issue: Currency just increases the efficiency of commerce and trading. If the only reason merchants are the tyrannical god kings of of the League is because we deliberately sabotage our own economy, then I think we have bigger problems.

If you're worried about merchants becoming too powerful, which is a concern I share, consider that there are better ways of achieving this than making everyone's else's life worse in the process. Ways such as a number of the measure we already have in place, like workers councils that act as a check on their power, or taxation.
 
Vote closed. I have other things on my plate right now but I will circle back to this eventually.

Adhoc vote count started by ScottishMongol on Sep 25, 2022 at 8:58 AM, finished with 157 posts and 48 votes.
 
Also, I really want to 'breed' new machines. Zero Dawn style machine would fit the aesthetic of the league a lot better than cars and tanks and other more traditional vehicles. They're also deeply awesome, and could be a useful way of appealing to the Living Metal and All Under Heaven.

 
Honestly, I wonder what such bodies would do for Machine-Spirits? Like, would they become more like animal spirits, or simply remain as they are?

Edit. But honestly, yes, I love the idea of animalistic machines which live in nature.
 
Well, looks like we're in for shock therapy. Welcome to the financialization of every aspect of life. I hope becoming indebted to Islanders to buy their imports is worth it. That spice better be baller. :p
 
If people are afraid of the League becoming too capitalistic, there is probably an option to learn some economic techs from the Army as they have a planned economy.
 
If people are afraid of the League becoming too capitalistic, there is probably an option to learn some economic techs from the Army as they have a planned economy.

A military's planned economy and a workers' are a bit different. Just a little. I hate capitalism and I think I'll take it over a military run economy.
 
A military's planned economy and a workers' are a bit different. Just a little. I hate capitalism and I think I'll take it over a military run economy.
I would guess that the central planners are mostly civil bureaucrats, it's just that like the rest of the Army they are subordinate to their military but that's not something that would automatically happen to us for adopting some of their economic techs.
 
I would guess that the central planners are mostly civil bureaucrats, it's just that like the rest of the Army they are subordinate to their military but that's not something that would automatically happen to us for adopting some of their economic techs.

Are they? I wouldn't be surprised if they're part of a logistic arm of the military.

But also, that means we'd learn nothing about how to run planning through democratic institutions, which is where the meat of the topic should be for us. Central bureaucratic planning wouldn't really be great for our society either, with its constellation of democratic organs both territorial and in the factories.
 
Are they? I wouldn't be surprised if they're part of a logistic arm of the military.

But also, that means we'd learn nothing about how to run planning through democratic institutions, which is where the meat of the topic should be for us. Central bureaucratic planning wouldn't really be great for our society either, with its constellation of democratic organs both territorial and in the factories.
If we get planners they would probably be elected either directly or indirectly.
 
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