Remove ads

GODSTAR - a Science Fantasy Civilization Quest

Reader mode
10ebbor10 said:
Embargoing them might ironically strengthen their slavery system, because it means they will double down on it for the sake of a full autarky.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Jeez. I was totally thinking Defence Pact+Embargo would be the way I would vote, but this seems very likely to be the consequences of that choice.
Now, thinking about it, since trade tends to lead to the commixture of cultures, and turns are supposed to represent a generation each, I believe that would be enough time for rebel support to actually change something, possibly through a toppling of their government. It's just left to see how much the war will damage us, and how much funding and supplying rebel factions in a foreign state will damage our reputation in other international dealings. Maybe other polities also abhor slavery and will approve, but I wouldn't count on it.

There's also the possibility that the MAoAuH will absolutely steamroll the LoS if we don't support them in some way, maybe that's the reason they're so keen on an alliance. If we support the rebels, we can't really expect the LoS to serve as our buffer, or for the rebels to be in any shape to resist the army after overthrowing the military-oligarchy government.
The reason we believe the LoS have a chance at all is that they are a society focused on their military class to the exclusion of almost anything else.
(btw, we still don't know anything about the other polities still, let's get espionage, yeah?)

So, thinking about it, i think maybe the Poisoned Chalice plan is the best, since it somewhat reduces their reliance on slave labour (maybe?), but still doesn't completely ignore our ethics. Let's hope the LoS sell us a bunch of military tech (that isn't gained by human sacrifices 🤢) and keeps on keeping on before the MAoAuH roll in, both sides take a lot of casualties, and the rebels flee into our territory while the Machine army licks its wounds after being bled by a villainous Last Stand from honour-bound warriors of the League.
 
I think plan Poisoned Chalice makes the most sense as well. We are playing for a culture victory here so we need contact with their society to be able to influence them. Our trade route will make it easier for us to supply the rebels and will hopefully relieve some of the pressure on their underclass. Perhaps we can use it to smuggle slaves out of the country as well?
 
Last edited:
I mean I don't think trade is going to relieve the underclass or allows us to influence them culturally

I would suspect the LoS High Council is going to make sure foreign trade is primarily conducted in a way that serves elite interests and strenghtens their MIC.

Furthermore Poisoned Chalice seems like a contradictory plan to me. We don't enter a military alliance with the LoS but we also don't fully back the rebels. Worst case scenario here is that the LoS crushes the rebels and figures out we supported them while the Machine Army invades us.

As far as I'm concerned we either decide to back the rebels or we don't back them and keep the LoS on our side until the Machine Army threat has been dealt with.

I want us to throw our full economic and political weight behind the rebels. We have an opportunity here to cut off the LoS from importing advanced tech from Sanctuary or us and we should use it.
 
Last edited:
TheCrownedVassal said:
So, thinking about it, i think maybe the Poisoned Chalice plan is the best, since it somewhat reduces their reliance on slave labour (maybe?), but still doesn't completely ignore our ethics. Let's hope the LoS sell us a bunch of military tech (that isn't gained by human sacrifices 🤢) and keeps on keeping on before the MAoAuH roll in, both sides take a lot of casualties, and the rebels flee into our territory while the Machine army licks its wounds after being bled by a villainous Last Stand from honour-bound warriors of the League.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This plan is really risky. If the League of Strength catches on to what we're doing and declares war then the Machine Army gets to roll over both of us while we're busy killing each other. Even if everything works out we're still making this whole conquer the world thing easier for the Machine Army of All-Under-Heaven.
 
WGDragoon said:
This plan is really risky. If the League of Strength catches on to what we're doing and declares war then the Machine Army gets to roll over both of us while we're busy killing each other. Even if everything works out we're still making this whole conquer the world thing easier for the Machine Army of All-Under-Heaven.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Hmm. I know it's risky, even if I don't quite believe it's as risky as you're painting it. All options here are bad, I'm just trying to follow what I think my priorities and the thread's tendencies are.

Looking at our options:
I think that Alliance+Embargo will antagonize both the rebels and the warrior caste, in addition to make life more miserable for poor people in their country. I think they'll be much more likely to wage war on us if we choose both the antagonistic options; the thread isn't going to support a full alliance with the League of Strength, in my opinion, so it makes no sense to vote for it.
That leaves Poisoned Chalice. It's certainly not the ideal option, but it makes sense with what we have. I even hate the kind of move we're pulling, diplomacy-wise, but I still think it's the best available strategy here.
 
Last edited:
defense pact and trade embargo seem great. We need to deal with the machine army in the short term and we want to knock the league of strength down later on. having the defense pact means we could force them to help us with the army while the embargo means that we won't help them and retain neutral/friendly relations with the rebel.

The mutual defense only applies to the machine army so they can't force us to fight the rebel. so after the whole thing with the machine army is over we could take them out with rebel help.
 
The holy men have announced that the Warstar is at its closest approach to Paradisea in many years; this is a time for war, for battle, for preparation.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This suggests to me that we are very close to war with the Machine Army of All-Under Heaven.

1. We absolutely cannot afford war with the LoS and the MA at the same time.
2. The weaker and more isolated it is, the more likely the LoS is to simply collapse when the Machine Army arrives- or to agree to become the Commander-in-Chief's vassals in exchange for help suppressing a slave revolt that threatens to destroy them from within.
3. We do not need a trade deal with the LoS when we have Sactuary and the Islanders as alternatives.

I have to oppose aid to the rebels because of the risk of war with the LoS, and/or the LoS switching sides. In the long term yes, but in the short term we have other priorities. A defensive agreement doesn't obligate us to do anything other than fight the Machine Army together, while a trade embargo allows us to avoid profiting off of slave labor (likely to bite us in the long term even if it benefits us in the short term) and to publicly oppose slavery and provide moral support to the rebels even if we stop short of military support.

It's not ideal, but;

[] Plan Realpolitik
-[] Mutual Defense Pact
-[] Trade Embargo

@ScottishMongol Does the Machine Army practice slavery? I'd think the people we got from the MA splinter would have told us.
 
ScottishMongol said:
They didn't before they were united, but you can't be sure that hasn't taken root since then.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

In that case I could totally see the Commander-in-Chief rolling into the League of Strength, freeing the slaves, and gaining the loyalty of the rebels- rebels who are likely to be ticked off at us if we either profit off of slave labor or ally with the LoS.

Heck.

If I thought we had the time for a war with the League of Strength and diplomatic overtures to the League of Five Shields before the Machine Army arrives I'd say go full out arming the rebels and embargoing LoS. As it stands I'm unsure.
 
My simple plan for earning the respect of the slaves and rebels is to give them guns. I think military support is better at that than embargos and sermons.

I would rather actually invade the League of Strength to support them than go with an embargo.
 
I tend to think that trade embargos don't work and they just hurt the average person. Trade gets us in the door and gives us a window to influence their politics and culture however narrow.
 
I'm still on board with what's being called Poisoned Chalice. We need to help the rebels, and there being legitimate reasons for our traders to be in the area only aids that plan.
 
Potato Anarchy said:
I would rather actually invade the League of Strength to support them than go with an embargo.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

We really shouldn't be invading the League of Strength when we're a turn or two from a big war with the Machine Army. We shouldn't even be risking the possibility of war with the League of Strength right now. The whole reason we sent diplomats to them in the first place, despite thinking they were awful people, was because of how dangerous the Machine Army of All-Under Heaven is. Getting confirmation on the fact that they're awful shouldn't have changed things.
 
A rising tide does not in fact lift all boats. These assholes have a slave underclass and an indebted underclass. Their huge inequality is just going to lead to their aristos accumulating more power.

The way I see it, supporting the rebels is in effect supporting the underclasses, and a trade embargo is going to cut off the kinds of trade that the aristocracy would otherwise monopolize.
 
I don't know what the best trade strategy is but I'm definitely pro rebel. I'd rather have revolutionaries as allies than a bunch a slavers
 
Alright, some clarification from discord: the LoS are still mostly subsistence farmers, and a trade embargo won't be really hard on the underclasses the way you'd expect in a modern context. Instead, the trade embargo option essentially amounts to refusing to buy goods made with slave labor.
 
spiritualatheist said:
Alright, some clarification from discord: the LoS are still mostly subsistence farmers, and a trade embargo won't be really hard on the underclasses the way you'd expect in a modern context. Instead, the trade embargo option essentially amounts to refusing to buy goods made with slave labor.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think the point is keeping relation with rebel rather then anything else.
 
spiritualatheist said:
Poisoned chalice is going to just help the slavers, according to the qm. Or at least the trade will.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Where did the QM say this?

Apparently statements were made that the embargo wouldn't hurt the common people, but it does not necessarily follow that trade will help only the slavers, especially since the stated idea is to use the excuse of legitimate trade to smuggle things to the rebels.
 
I'm down for Poisoned chalice although contacting the League of strength was a poisoned cup of our own. Seems it would have been better to get the five shields on our side. We should look into that next turn to see if they can be allies as while not as strong as the LOS they did fight off the tech baron's so they might be of use.
 
Trade will absolutely help the slavers. I've accepted that and I still think Poisoned Chalice is the approach I'm least uncomfortable with. There are no options here that just work or just don't work, there's no winning code. There's tradeoffs.

If you absolutely weight defeating the Machine Army above all else, then yeah, this isn't going to work for you. The tradeoff there is abandoning the slaves and free people in the north to slavemasters and fate. I would rather fall to the MA and deal with the consequences than refuse to support the rebels here, so that means I have to give up the military alliance.

I also don't want the zero-gain all-risk approach of telling the LoS to fuck off. I think the trade is a chance to strengthen both economies before the arrival of the Machine Army and for us to eke out more advantages this turn before the arrival of war. If it ends up strengthening the LoS regime somewhat in the short term, I don't think that instantly dooms the rebels and it's a risk I'm okay with taking. It's not clean or desirable. It's an effort to prepare for the arrival of the Machine Army.

I would take this deal over the others even if I thought there was absolutely zero impact on the LoS culturally or our ability to aid the rebels. That I think there's a chance it helps with those things is just a bonus.
 
Potato Anarchy said:
Trade will absolutely help the slavers. I've accepted that and I still think Poisoned Chalice is the approach I'm least uncomfortable with. There are no options here that just work or just don't work, there's no winning code. There's tradeoffs.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

To be clear I agree with this, and never said the trade would not help the slavers. I disagreed with the notion that it will help only the slavers. The hope is that it helps the common people and rebels at least as much if not more.
 
If we wanted to be extremely unethical we could sell our Homunculi to them. All we need to do is consider them not human and now we can mass-produce slaves.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top