The way Isekai crap handles adventurer guilds feels more like writer taking a really basic fantasy and/or video game concepts like adventurers and adventuring parties and turning it into a monolithic thing so they don't have to bother with the how or why of what made a character become an adventurer or join a party.

Even though there are way more organic and plausible concepts to do the same job. Knightly orders, mercenary companies, warrior lodges etc.

It's important to recognize that video game and fantasy "guilds" have little to nothing in common with the historical reality.

One of the closest I've seen was in the game Gothic 2 where one of the hurdles in the early game is apprenticing with one of the local tradesmen so you can get into the rich part of the city. Where not only do you have to prove to the one you choose that you have any business taking up their trade, you also have to leap through hoops to get all the other guys to consent to it.

It wasn't really an individual guild though, they were all in different trades. More like a Chamber of Commerce.
 
One of the closest I've seen was in the game Gothic 2 where one of the hurdles in the early game is apprenticing with one of the local tradesmen so you can get into the rich part of the city. Where not only do you have to prove to the one you choose that you have any business taking up their trade, you also have to leap through hoops to get all the other guys to consent to it.

It wasn't really an individual guild though, they were all in different trades. More like a Chamber of Commerce.
Gothic II is a great game and was also developed by a German-speaking developer, Piranha Bytes.

I feel like German-speaking countries like Germany, Switzerland and Austria usually have a lot more sensitivity about the realities of medieval guilds than you would see in other nations. Like, German-speaking medieval fantasy often features guilds in some form, and you often see them featured in historical dramas on TV. And then you also see guilds in video games.

... God, I loved Gothic II. Played that game a lot as a teenager. Never managed to finish it without using cheat codes, mind; that game was tough as nails for a kid. :confused:
 
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Also, like, I forgot one of the most interesting tidbits about apprentices in medieval guilds!

Masters loved to take apprentices because they were a cheap labour force that they didn't have to pay for (except room and board), and very often masters were paid by the apprentoce's family to teach them. Basically, apprentices were unpaid interns and treated with about the same level of respect.

This obviously led to massive exploitation and abuse, and often this resulted in backlash - - we have historical records of guilds suffering from massive infighting as "fellows" (former apprentices turned guild members that were not masters) rebelled against the strict rules that made it impossible for them to advance in rank and open their own shops. Some of those disputes ended up in actual bloodshed and rebellion, especially in the late middle ages when guilds increasingly tried to assert themselves as overlords over their members, all amid increasing urbanization and an explosion in the number of craftsmen all over Europe.

Real guilds are so much more interesting than the adventurers' guilds we see in fiction. I saw somebody on SV say that isekai adcenturers' guilds are based on those seen in JRPGs, which were written as satires of jobless centers... And that makes a lot more sense than trying to claim they are based on medieval guilds.
 
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Basically, apprentices were unpaid interns and treated with about the same level of respect.

This obviously led to massive exploitation and abuse, and often this resulted in backlash

This is also a leading interpretation of the microhistorical oddity known as the Great Cat Massacre.

I don't have the book to quote at the moment, but the highlights from an article:

Article:
The Great Cat Massacre on the Rue Saint-Séverin was, in the words of the perpetrators, "the funniest thing that ever happened at Jacques Vincent's printing works." The episode took place in the Latin Quarter of Paris in 1730. As a way to take revenge on their masters who treated even their cats better than them, two apprentices organized the "biggest felinicide in French history." After convincing members of the bourgeoisie that the animals were possessed, the pair staged a mock trial, knocked the cats unconscious, sentenced them to death, and hanged them.

[...] His chapter devoted to the cat massacre on the Rue Saint-Séverin is "an anthropological attempt to understand the comical aspect of the situation, and to see how the workers manipulated symbols to attack their masters in a way that meant they could not punish them," says the historian. Some 50 years before the French Revolution, this affair demonstrated the defiance felt by the working class towards the bourgeoisie.

Robert Darnton insists on the "vast complexity of the symbols used by the workers." At the time in Europe, cats were associated with witches and sexuality. The massacre was therefore a trial, a magical happening, and a form of sexual assault against the master printer's wife, who had to witness her favorite cat tortured. The whole event was accompanied by the laughter of the workers, who re-enacted the scene in the printing works for months after.
 
To be fair, burning cats was literally a pastime at the general time, thought to be associated with the devil and witchcraft, so they may have legitimately just thought that.

The French had a "nice" habit of burning and hanging cats on the day of John the Baptist. How they annoyed the French so much remains a mystery. The differences between the regions are solely in the specifics of the process: in Paris, cats were stuffed into a bag, hung it higher, and then set on fire. In Saint-Chamond, cats were doused with resin, set on fire, and then chased through the streets. In Burgundy and Lorraine, before setting fire to the "May pole", a cat was bound to it.
 
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Hello, legal historian here. As in, I wrote my master's thesis on legal history. Not specifically on medieval guilds, but hey, you pick up a lot of stuff doing massive amounts of reading on the history of law.

Guilds absolutely provided apprenticeships to people. In fact, many guilds required their masters to train apprentices in order to maintain their status as, well, masters. Additionally, many guilds required their masters to take apprentices in order to train replacements to masters and members that had died, to keep funds rolling in for the pension funds of their widows and orphans, and they also had orders to provide services to the cities they lived in. Additionally, masters training apprentices was one of the classic ways in which guildmasters expanded their own network of influence, so they were naturally incentivized to train apprentices. A guild that failed to attract new members and failed to train them would quickly cease to be a guild at all or had its incompetent leadership replaced by others. That doesn't necessarily mean that guilds couldn't be selective about who they apprenticed, because so many medieval people would fight over the chance to have their child apprenticed to a guild. But guilds absolutely required that their guild members trained apprentices.

The ideas of "guilds as regulatory bodies" is only one aspect of their multi-faceted role in society. They were societies of their own, with their own laws and rules. It's important to recognize that video game and fantasy "guilds" have little to nothing in common with the historical reality, but also not to confuse them with a simple regulatory agency that modern people would be familiar with.

See, I've been thinking about this for the last few hours. To wit, requiring masters to train apprentices is not the same as providing apprenticeships to people. But then, you could point to an example of a guild that did, point in fact, match apprentices to masters.

I'd then ask if this kind of service was common enough to make it an identifying feature of Guilds and then we'd start arguing if the "favour bartering" of the day constituted a way in which the Guilds provided a forum for said work opportunities to happen. The question would then ultimately devolve into: Were guilds rent-seekers or cost-sharers?

Did they actually provide a useful service to the people they represented, or just provide a means for the people who lead the guilds to control the trade?

And the guild in Goblin Slayer; Is it's behavior really that different, therefore, then those guilds we actually saw take place in our world?

The GS guild has:

-Established a monopoly on a trade (Adventuring)
-Has a steady flow of unskilled and skilled trade workers (Adventurers)
-Levies fees on the work of said trade workers.
-Governs the interactions and trade between said trade workers and their consumer base.

It doesn't have apprentices or masters like in a classical guild. But then, if the purpose of a Guild is to rent-seek and provide control levers over the trade....does it matter? Adventuring is glamorous. Adventuring is popular. Adventuring is one of the ways the poorest person the GS society has can move upwards in their economic class. There manifestly isn't a need for skilled adventurers to seek out apprentices for the guild to have an influx of new blood to fill their coffers with or for the kingdom to need a way to control them.
 
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See, I've been thinking about this for the last few hours. To wit, requiring masters to train apprentices is not the same as providing apprenticeships to people. But then, you could point to an example of a guild that did, point in fact, match apprentices to masters.

I'd then ask if this kind of service was common enough to make it an identifying feature of Guilds and then we'd start arguing if the "favour bartering" of the day constituted a way in which the Guilds provided a forum for said work opportunities to happen. The question would then ultimately devolve into: Were guilds rent-seekers or cost-sharers?

Did they actually provide a useful service to the people they represented, or just provide a means for the people who lead the guilds to control the trade?

And the guild in Goblin Slayer; Is it's behavior really that different, therefore, then those guilds we actually saw take place in our world?

The GS guild has:

-Established a monopoly on a trade (Adventuring)
-Has a steady flow of unskilled and skilled trade workers (Adventurers)
-Levies fees on the work of said trade workers.
-Governs the interactions and trade between said trade workers and their consumer base.

It doesn't have apprentices or masters like in a classical guild. But then, if the purpose of a Guild is to rent-seek and provide control levers over the trade....does it matter? Adventuring is glamorous. Adventuring is popular. Adventuring is one of the ways the poorest person the GS society has can move upwards in their economic class. There manifestly isn't a need for skilled adventurers to seek out apprentices for the guild to have an influx of new blood to fill their coffers with or for the kingdom to need a way to control them.

Still mercenary services would be more reliable as you just pick off whomever had a bad harvest/falling out with their previous job/exiled nobility, tell them if they know how to fight and give them some weapons and armor and sic them on whatever threat at the exchange of having no glory, treated like social pariahs and extremely risky work.

But at least these mercs can realize what goblins will do and won't be so naive like adventurers and thrown into meatgrinders
 
The point of a guild, for its members, is that it looks after them, you get sick, injured, or dead, well, the guild is there, for you, or your family.

The adventurers guild, is not a guild, and that is not necessarily wrong, except in that it should not be called a guild.
What the adventurers guild is, is ineffective, wasteful and predatory.
And that's fine, as long as it is recogniced for what it is.
 
The point of a guild, for its members, is that it looks after them, you get sick, injured, or dead, well, the guild is there, for you, or your family.

The adventurers guild, is not a guild, and that is not necessarily wrong, except in that it should not be called a guild.
What the adventurers guild is, is ineffective, wasteful and predatory.
And that's fine, as long as it is recogniced for what it is.
The point of a guild is to control a trade.

Caring about its members is optional I am afraid to say. Certainly, Guilds that behaved like Unions existed but they weren't the definitive standard.
 
The point of a guild is to control a trade.

Caring about its members is optional I am afraid to say. Certainly, Guilds that behaved like Unions existed but they weren't the definitive standard.
Not for the guild members.
You continue to make very strong statements, and have been corrected on that before, can you actually provide any sources on this?
 
Not for the guild members.
You continue to make very strong statements, and have been corrected on that before, can you actually provide any sources on this?
Did somebody not just post a link with how apprentices were treated like slave labor in this very page?

I could come up with examples of guilds that only benefited very few if you like.

Still mercenary services would be more reliable as you just pick off whomever had a bad harvest/falling out with their previous job/exiled nobility, tell them if they know how to fight and give them some weapons and armor and sic them on whatever threat at the exchange of having no glory, treated like social pariahs and extremely risky work.

But at least these mercs can realize what goblins will do and won't be so naive like adventurers and thrown into meatgrinders

If they could do that, wouldn't it make more sense to simply call them up as levies?

In the current system, adventurers front the cost of armor, weapons and supplies themselves. As is, it costs the Prayer races nothing to have thousands of adventurers running around because they aren't the ones with a duty to clothe and feed them. Economics are a harsh mistress.
 
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Did somebody not just post a link with how apprentices were treated like slave labor in this very page?

I could come up with examples of guilds that only benefited very few if you like.
Ummm, no? We seem to have gotten very different impression on those links, unless there are links here i can't find.

That said, i am interested in your examples.
 
The GS guild has:

-Established a monopoly on a trade (Adventuring)
-Has a steady flow of unskilled and skilled trade workers (Adventurers)
-Levies fees on the work of said trade workers.
-Governs the interactions and trade between said trade workers and their consumer base.

I mean, this just raises a shitload of questions directly tied to the fact that this is not a trade that exists to continually produce goods, but armed mercenary work.

Where do all these revolving door temp adventurers come from? Where do they get their armour and weapons? How is there a stable supply of jobs for them? Is there just a constant stream of monsters in specific enough numbers that they're not a threat to stable society while being too numerous to conclusively deal with? If adventurers are so important while basically being their own private army why are they just a guild instead of a powerful military order with their own lands and political power?

Maybe this is all nitpicking and shit, but I get the feeling that Isekai that do this adventurers guild stuff are trying to be clever having heroes be an institution. So they started it.

Never managed to finish it without using chest codes, mind; that game was tough as nails for a kid. :confused:

Well, clearly it wasn't tough enough considering how the expansion nerfed the hell out of both experience gain and learning points costs for skills lol.

I think the thing that stuck with me the most about that game is that while it wasn't quite grimdark, it wasn't some bougie fantasy setting where everyone is just freely able to talk with you and help you with your quest out from the goodness of their hearts. There's always a quid pro quo to get somewhere. Not always because they're self interested assholes out to scam you, but just because they gotta work for a living and don't have time to jaw with you unless you're going to make yourself useful.

It's an energy that helps make the setting real grounded in a way a lot of other fantasy works are missing.
 
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Maybe this is all nitpicking and shit, but I get the feeling that Isekai that do this adventurers guild stuff are trying to be clever having heroes be an institution. So they started it.
It originally comes from Dragon Quest i believe, though it is by no means the only game to have something similar (they make for an easy way to guide players to content and offer quests with minimal effort).
And then japanese fantasy stories copied it, then copy each other, to a point that i suspect majority who use the trope use it because everyone else they know uses it.
 
If they could do that, wouldn't it make more sense to simply call them up as levies?

In the current system, adventurers front the cost of armor, weapons and supplies themselves. As is, it costs the Prayer races nothing to have thousands of adventurers running around because they aren't the ones with a duty to clothe and feed them. Economics are a harsh mistress.

Levies are tied to the kingdom and can't take independent work. An adventurer and mercs crave the independence of taking jobs of their choice. But mercs would be more reliable because they would be relatively battle hardened soldiers/desperate fodder rather than naive kids who think they would be heroes.
 
People also seem to forget something when making d&d ripoffs. A "level one adventurer" is still assumed to be an experienced killer. The assumption is that you've already seen action either in a war or as a caravan guard protecting merchants from highwaymen. They aren't meant to be innocent kids.
 
People also seem to forget something when making d&d ripoffs. A "level one adventurer" is still assumed to be an experienced killer. The assumption is that you've already seen action either in a war or as a caravan guard protecting merchants from highwaymen. They aren't meant to be innocent kids.

But in goblin slayer they are exactly just that, a bunch of naive kids seeking glory vs Goblin Slayer's single minded quest in slaying all goblins.
 
But in goblin slayer they are exactly just that, a bunch of naive kids seeking glory vs Goblin Slayer's single minded quest in slaying all goblins.
I think that's the point.
I atleast have had fans of the show claim that it is based on D&D, and therefore everything makes sense.
Usual response to that is a picture of a D&D cleric, wearing armor, helmet and holding a rather nasty looking mace, and a picture of the GS priestess who looks like they are on their way to choir practice.
 
One point i have seen brought up elsewhere, is that the newb team had the priest girl and the wizard girl in it.
And atleast the wizard was supposed to be somesort of prodigy.
Well, wizards, i believe, take some major resources to train, and i assume people capable of casting healing magic are not growing on trees either.
That was some major resources being utterly wasted.
 
The way Isekai crap handles adventurer guilds feels more like writer taking a really basic fantasy and/or video game concepts like adventurers and adventuring parties and turning it into a monolithic thing so they don't have to bother with the how or why of what made a character become an adventurer or join a party.

Even though there are way more organic and plausible concepts to do the same job. Knightly orders, mercenary companies, warrior lodges etc.
It feels like a wasted opportunity to have isekai guilds be the way they are and not go full Futurama with it. IE have the protagonist tired of bullshit internships and gig economy work get isekai'd into a fantasy world where he... is hired on as an 'apprentice' to do 'guild jobs'. But he can indulge in mindless consumerism shoot fireballs now so its ok. Like if you are going to have a fantasy world oddly resemble 21st century capitalism might as well go full parody, maybe even get some biting social commentary.
 
like the point of a guild is not just to control who joins a profession, but to influence the rulers and set prices for their services in a manner that benefits guildmembers.

if goblin missions were dangerous, as they obviously are, the guild would have set a price that would make it worth the time of higher level adventurers.

the series has awful worldbuilding, and exists just as an excuse for gratuitous rape and torture scenes.
 
At least there is some justification in that the gods are treating the world of Goblin Slayer as a game.

Demon Lords rise up often enough that it has become expected and monsters are often spontaneously spawned in various locations.

Who's to say that there are some gods working in the background to ensure that humans and other non-monster races can keep up with the constant attrition of the death world they live on.

The gods can be blamed on a lot of weird shit in Goblin Slayer.
 
Eh, using "gods did it" as an excuse for every inconstency, poor world building, or unrealistic thing, is not really something that improves things as far as i am concerned.
To me it comes of more like an admission that not only is the author unable to make an internally consistent setting, they are not even going to try.
 
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