Glory of the Emerald Empire (Legend of the 5 Rings Quest)

Huh. Just realized a pertinent thing about it.

The "special sunflake" factor denies us the experience of just being another warrior, trying to do the best we can to find some way to help in the middle of a battle far larger than we are. If we're in a major battle, it's going to be against the enemies of Rokugan, and at that point the *least* we are is a secret weapon. If one of the foe fields anything of real power, suddenly we're one of the major playing pieces.

I'm not as bothered by it as some of the others - I *don't* see our contribution as Sousuke-the-bushi as being invalidated by our experience as Sousuke-the-channel, but I admit that it's not my favorite bit. It feels... almost tacked on. We were losing against the oni, and then suddenly we were winning but had a save-or-die effect. The fight against Moto Shinichiro was almost an anime-esque "Now let me show you my *true* power!" thing.

Part of it... L5R is pretty starkly lethal, by its nature. In the fiction, *anyone* can die (and almost certainly will). Even social interaction can kill you. Sousuke is by nature the sort of guy who will go charging into battles even if there's a good chance that they'll kill him, as long as he thinks he can sell his life well. That's going to get him killed some day... but you have a plot that doesn't want him to die yet. Honestly, that's what the sunfire thing felt like the first time. I'm really not sure what the right answer is. Letting him die ends the quest in a way that you might find unsatisfying, and coming up with reasons to keep him alive cheapens it.

Outside of that, the whole thing has been pretty cool. I do like the Sousuke being Sousuke bits.
 
Part of it... L5R is pretty starkly lethal, by its nature. In the fiction, *anyone* can die (and almost certainly will). Even social interaction can kill you.
Eh, that's more the rpg mechanics than the actual fiction, and there's a pretty big divide there.

How many Important MetaPlot characters end up just dying when a random scrub gets lucky? Basically none.

Being able to share the narrative scope with setting-important characters without being a comparative total chump is nice.
 
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Awesome so far. Just a bit frustrated of my lack of knowledge in the setting and some moments where the majority voted for ignoring obvious plot hooks and manly silence instead of interacting with characters.
 
Eh, that's more the rpg mechanics than the actual fiction, and there's a pretty big divide there.

How many Important MetaPlot characters end up just dying when a random scrub gets lucky? Basically none.

Being able to share the narrative scope with setting-important characters without being a comparative total chump is nice.
Not many wind up just dying when a random scrub gets lucky, but in the RPG, "setting-important characters" would pretty much all have particularly impressive statblocks, so in RPG terms, they *wouldn't* tend to die to just some random scrub. It's more that the official fictions are notable for their lack of plot armor, as compared to most of the rest of the fiction out there. It may not be quite up to George R. R. Martin levels, but my feel on things has it being a fair bit worse than, say, Joss Whedon. Admittedly, I haven't been too heavily into it for a few years, and I don't have any raw numbers for you, but it was certainly noticeable while I was reading it.

Joss Whedon is a gardener. He cultivates carefuly, and picks the choicest blooms. George R. R. Martin is a farmer. He sows only that he might reap.
 
Not many wind up just dying when a random scrub gets lucky, but in the RPG, "setting-important characters" would pretty much all have particularly impressive statblocks, so in RPG terms, they *wouldn't* tend to die to just some random scrub
Exactly, they fundamentally aren't playing under the same rules as players. Toku, despite being a peasant, never actually suffered through combat with no armor, 1 in every ring and no school techniques.
 
I dunno, I'm going to have to disagree with the 'special sunflake' epithet, or at least with the thought that being one is a bad thing. I mean, Rokugan's cosmology is full of heroes with unusual powers or blessings from the spirits, and I'm enjoying the chance to listen to the story of one such a person. And there are all sorts of interesting plot twists about a hero's burden and so on that are really pretty interesting to read....

But if there was a problem with the last chapter, it has to do with the difference between a quest and a work of fiction. In general, the idea that a hero suddenly shows powers which have been properly Chekov's gunned / foreshadowed ahead of time and therefore saves the day isn't really a bad trope, and can really make for some very satisfying reading in a more traditional story.

In a quest, on the other hand, or in a RPG in general, having players feel like they have agency is important. Whereas we were definitely present for the fight with False Shinichiro, and made some contributions, the most important bits were where we disregarded our chances for personal glory and our personal safety to make sure that we kept Asako Akio alive. Once the fires of the Sun came out, the victory became Yakamo's, not Sosuke's. On the other hand, if we had been reading the quest without any expectation of being able to alter it, I think it could have been pretty unambiguously a moment of mystery and heroism and a sign of a great destiny, and the fact that it temporarily wasn't Sosuke anymore wouldn't have been as bothersome.

Now, I have every hope that this will be less of a problem in the future, because now that we know a bit about these fires we might be able to control them, and I think that once we can do that, people won't mind so much... but it might be helpful to have some sort of understanding of what the benefits and costs of going Nova might be mechanically, so that we feel like we are making an informed decision on the subject.

Anybody else want to weigh in?
 
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Here's the weird thing.
Sosuke being Yakamo's reincarnation has been foreshadowed as hell. So to me it was more of 'hah called it!' moment.
But, I get it, I get wanting to be a badass normal, I do. However, I don't think Sousuke ever really had a shot of being normal, not from that first dream. Heroes usually aren't all that normal, especially in a setting like Rokugan.

That said, I don't think that being the reincarnation of Yakamo detracts from Sousuke.
Yeah, Yakamo gives us a boost.
But Yakamo would have done so many things differently.
-killed that Matsu back in the Lion lands
-ignored the fox
-ignored Hanabi
ect ect.

So yeah we have a bit of Yakamo's power, but I still feel we are distinctly Sousuke in our actions.
 
I'm liking that the quest has this epic, heroic fantasy feeling. Granted, the game system is known for its high lethality and all of that, but surely this sounds like some kind of epic story you would be narrating to someone else.

I get you guys want to be known as "Hiruma Sosuke, Hero of the battle of Skulking Shadows" instead of "That dude who's the Sun". We still can, though. Only twice this power has been relevant, and the other one is a thing only monkbro and a certain ogre knows about.
 
Exactly, they fundamentally aren't playing under the same rules as players. Toku, despite being a peasant, never actually suffered through combat with no armor, 1 in every ring and no school techniques.
Based on what background? Toku pretty much never showed up in the fiction at all. Toku in the card game represented a whole pile of weak samurai who were inspired by Toturi with courage beyond their might. They died all the time. The only other background source was the RPG, where he was essentially initially built as a Ronin with a bunch of "used to be a peasant" social flaws (like illiteracy)... and you've already acknowledged that the RPG was pretty lethal.

Setting-important characters are generally badass because they worked their way up to it. Yakamo at Beiden pass was nothing like as powerful as Yakamo Thunder.

Honestly, I'm not quite sure what you're arguing at this point.
 
Here's the weird thing.
Sosuke being Yakamo's reincarnation has been foreshadowed as hell. So to me it was more of 'hah called it!' moment.
I know it was foreshadowed, but... I guess it's like reading one of the better quests on QQ or Anonkun. There's good writing, interesting plot, but every so often there's something that strongly hints that at some point things are breaking down into sex. Eventually, lo and behold, the updates are pure porn for a while, then the plot comes back, then more porn, and eventually it's impossible to just skim over the sex scenes to get to the good stuff because all the sex has in fact become the plot and that's what the quest is about now. It's not much of a "called it" to watch that happen, because it was clear that it was coming and it's less some sort of genius plot twist and more a faint hope that things can stay good in spite of this pernicious nonsense getting in the way of updates about things that actually matter.

That's basically what I see happening here. Started with hints sprinkled through the stuff I liked a lot, then we went full sun, then more character development, now it's full sun again in a way that means it can't be brushed off and will inevitably have to come to mesh with the character arc.

Given the analogy, that I'm talking about this at all feels a little silly to me, because the appropriate answer is exactly the same. If you don't like porn, don't read those quests. If you don't like having your samurai's next character arc be all about his reincarnation sun superpowers, don't read this one. In either case the author is obviously writing the story they like and complaining about or standing in the way of that is rude, so I generally don't- and I get that there are good stories to be told about people who are heroes because of some kind of inborn superpower, even if those aren't necessarily stories that I normally enjoy. But readers' thoughts were requested, and I'm a reader, so I might as well share.
 
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Meh, reading about Rokugan from multiple quests, I get the feeling that only people with great destinies and powers like Sosuke's are the ones that rise up to defend the world.

If so, I think that being the Special Sunflake is a really good card for us the players to have to have an exciting quest. We have been Sosuke, and despite everything, as a brash, Yakamo reincarnated bushi, Sosuke obtained what he has by being Sosuke, being an exceptional samurai in the code of bushido as well as everything else of being a good person.(I think)
Still, that won't be enough to let him become as influential as a daimyo or a Clan Champion, or whatever higher place is in the society(sry, I'm mostly ignorant). Becoming a person of higher societal status through powerful feats are going to be necessary if we want to start influencing things in a massive scale. And we really need to influence things quickly if what I see is correct and Kyousuke is going to invade, and being stuck as a normal(if exceptionally competent) bushi was never going to sit with us when there are so much that we want to do in bigger scale.
Playing in a different playing field as a commander or more is going to be a new experience in this thread, and I'm excited to try it.
Perhaps the only thing that I can complain about is how rapid the attack was on the Wall. Sosuke did this amazing thing, but suddenly there was an attack on the Wall that made his accomplishments in getting three times as much Jade was overwhelmed in the face of "surprise enemy attack!" Maybe I wanted to see how Sosuke's actions helped Crabs for a few years. However, the attack does remind me that time waits for nobody, and that this isn't a hero story of how time flies according to main character's wishes.
Also, if the attack was generated randomly through rolls, I have nothing to complain about.
Dice Gods do what Dice Gods do.
Therefore, I don't think there is much to complain about for Sosuke's special power.
 
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Based on what background? Toku pretty much never showed up in the fiction at all. Toku in the card game represented a whole pile of weak samurai who were inspired by Toturi with courage beyond their might. They died all the time. The only other background source was the RPG, where he was essentially initially built as a Ronin with a bunch of "used to be a peasant" social flaws (like illiteracy)... and you've already acknowledged that the RPG was pretty lethal.

Setting-important characters are generally badass because they worked their way up to it. Yakamo at Beiden pass was nothing like as powerful as Yakamo Thunder.

Honestly, I'm not quite sure what you're arguing at this point.

I'm saying that the lethality characters experience under RPG rules isn't mirrored by the relatively low lethality shown in the metaplot. If these metaplot characters were actually having to play through the adventures strictly following RPG rules, we'd see a hell of a lot more 'oh, that guy got shot in a neck and he died at some random battle'. Even with their stats, the roll and keep system makes encountering high-end crits not just a possibility, but an inevitability.

Let's pull a random npc's statblock out... say, the emerald champion, since he's a Big Important Warrior and should be a good standard. Gonna spoiler the probability calculations



He's got an earth rank of 2. He's presumably been fighting goblins, samurai and ashura with an earth rank of 2 his entire career. He eventually gets killed by an Oni defending the emperor - a noble death, to be sure.

But let's see what his odds are of dying in combat to something a hell of a lot less impressive? Let's say he gets ambushed by, I dunno, a group of six goblins. This is a tiny, unremarkable enemy force, and while they manage to catch him out of armor, he has his sword at the ready and has a couple void points.

I'll favor the emerald champion here, and take average damage for the rolls (though there's a decent chance a goblin will roll a crit on damage), and I'll assume that he automatically hits and kills two goblins a round, and beats all their initiatives (this is very much something in his favor - I'm essentially giving him an extra insight rank for free here). From his statblock, he becomes crippled at 26 hp, and his reflexes makes him 35 TN to hit.

A goblin has a 4k2 simple attack, and they're dumb brutes who fight as berserkers. They'll full attack constantly (making their attack roll 6k3). Odds of a random scrub-tier goblin successfully hurting the emerald champion? 16% - one in six times.

Round 1: He goes first, attacks, and kills two goblins.

In terms of combat movement, he's even with the goblins (water 3 vs water 1, swift 2), so the other four goblins now attack him. I'm going to assume that two of them only attack him once in the first turn due to being morons with bad positioning (goblins can attack as a simple action, after all).

1- .84^6 = 64% chance that he takes damage from at least one goblin.
6*.84^5*.16=40% chance of taking damage from exactly one.
So about a 1 in 4 chance that multiple ones hit.

Goblins deal 4k2 damage, which averages to 17.4. So, in all likelyhood, the goblins could already put him into 'hurt'.
36% of the time he's fine.
40% of the time he takes 17ish damage (putting him into -10, hurt, unless he voids it to be -7).
24% of the time he takes 35 damage (even if he voids, that's still 25 damage - he's almost crippled) - I'm going to chalk this up as losing the fight.
Next round, assuming he isn't too injured to keep fighting, he kills another two of those bastards.

There are now 2 goblins left, both of which attack twice using simple actions.
1- .84^4 = 50% chance of getting hit by at least one.
4*.84^3*.16 = 38% chance of getting hit exactly once, so a 12% chance of getting hit multiple times

I'm going to be generous again, and assume if he doesn't get hit more than once this round he survives and kills the remaining two.

75%*12% =9% chance of losing the fight in the second round

So overall, if you were operating under RPG rules, one in three times you'd expect the Emerald Champion (or any comparable Big Important Warrior) to die if he faces off against half a dozen goblins. Or any other comparable pathetic force of wimps.

Now, how many Big Important Warrior characters are there in the metaplot who actually get killed by goblins in a random pointless ambush? Or hell, killed by goblins ever?

None.

The type of ultra-lethal combat you see in L5R: The Mechanics is not reflected in L5R: The Setting.

Mostly, that's because L5R: The Mechanics are explicitly tuned for "a world that is realistic overall, with lethal combat and characters who are thoroughly mortal'. This is contrasted against what I feel is a better description of L5R the setting - a setting where "heroes often seem to wind up with weapons or armor of super-powerful nature... are usually underdogs facing incredibly powerful villains... truly "broken" bad guys who the PCs can only defeat with the utmost courage and commitment... characters have a knack for enduring gruesome injuries and coming back from the brink of death to strike down their enemies. They also have a tendency to pull off amazing feats, far beyond their normal capability, whenever it is dramatically appropriate."

I'd say that's a fair description of the type of things you see in the setting - powerful wizards raising mountains, immortal liches causing the skies to rain blood, slayers and creators of elemental kaiju, evil gods returning to wreak havoc across the surface of the world, scads of characters coming back from the dead, and at least six different sets of legendary magical items. That's also explicitly a different tone than what the RPG has by default - and the recommendation in the RPG itself is that if you want things to match that description, you should change how the rules work because the baseline rules don't reflect that type of game.

In short:

In the fiction and setting exposition, 'anyone can die at any time' is a huge stretch. People die at dramatically convenient moments, heroes and villains are larger than life, and impressive things happen because they're cool.

In the RPG mechanics, anyone can die at any time, because the RPG's rules are explicitly designed to have a high level of random lethality (thanks to exploding dice), and people - even big important emerald champions - can easily die in meaningless skirmishes against no-name mooks. Heroes and villains are 'realistic', and their mortality is keenly felt.
 
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Of course then we have people like this:

Hida Benjiro, Indomitable Crab Warrior

School/Rank Hida Bushi / 5
  Defender of the Wall / 3
Honor 2.4
Status 7.0
Glory 9.1
  Air 4 Earth 6 Fire 4 Water 5 Void 3
  Reflexes 4 Stamina 6 Agility 5 Strength 5  
  Awareness 4 Willpower 6 Intelligence 4 Perception 5
You know a real badass. He'd probably smack around goblins all day if he felt like it.
(And knowing Benjiro he probably found that boring and started beating the absolute shit out Ogres instead.)
And you know he was one of the heroes of the Destroyer War, if this version of Rokugan had that war. Benjiro would be everything Sousuke dreamed of being before his little Yakamo revelation.


I'm not saying Yasuki Hachi ain't a wimp, because he is, his entire character revolves around him being a wimp, knowing it, and trying his best anyways.

Heck looking at Hachi's predecessor...

Seppun Toshiken, Emerald Champion
Statistics Edit

  Air 3 Earth 3 Fire 3 Water 3 Void 5
  Reflexes 5 Stamina 3 Agility 5 Strength 3  
  Awareness 3 Willpower 3 Intelligence 3 Perception 5
The man is something of a murder machine, he doesn't take hits well, but he hits fast, and can mulch most duellists (Which at the end of the day is the main job of the Emerald Champion.) But he takes them better than Hachi.
(Not pictured the kenjutsu and Iaijutsu 7)

It's legitimately possible to become superhuman in this game. I am currently part of a game where I have people pushing 100 wounds and that's before reduction and other shenanigans.
Yes l5r can be hyper lethal. I dropped an earth shuggie with 95 wounds in a single round thanks to explosions but you can usually expect heroes to not go that route. We were already special by starting with the *3 modifier to Earth rather than *2.

I guess broadly speaking is that while the system can be a mess, it can support everything from hyper lethal one hit kill games where there are no heroes. To truly titantic slugging matches where everyone goes far beyond what we would consider realistic, it's entirely dependent on what sort of game is run.
 
Okay, lemme run the same combat against Seppun Toshiken

1 point lower reflexes means gobbos need to beat a TN of 30 instead of 35. In practice, that means goblins hit him 31% of the time, rather than 16%
On the other hand, his earth ring is 3 rather than 2. That means it takes him 45 wounds to be crippled.

Once again, I'm gonna have him kill two gobbos a turn without rolling for it

Round 1: 2 gobbos dead

4 gobbos roll, get six attacks in at 6k3, as before.
1-(1-.31)^6= 89% chance at least one hits, as before dealing 17.4 damage per hit. Once again, assuming void when I give damage counts, but that only applies once/round.

Since multiple attacks matter, let's calculate them out in a little more detail
11% chance of zero hits (0 damage)
6*((1-.31)^5)*.31= 29% chance of one hit (7 damage)
(6*5/2)*(1-.31)^4*.31^2= 32 % of two hits (25 damage)
And because I hate doing factorials at 3 AM
89-32-29=28% chance of three hits (42 damage)

Okay, next round. He swats two more goblins effortlessly, leaving only a pair of suckers left.

1- (1-.31)^4 = 22% chance of zero hits
4*.31*(1-.31)^3 = 40% chance of one hit (7 damage)
(4*3/2)*.31^2*(1-.31)^2 = 27% chance of two hits (25 damage)
and again
1-.22-.4-.27=11% chance of three hits (42 damage)

The odds he takes 5 hits across two rounds (for a total of 65 damage - definitely dead)?
32% *11% + 28% * 27% + 28% * 11% = 14%

How about at least 4 hits (baseline 49 damage)?
.29*(.11)+.32(.27+.11)+.28*(.4+.27+.11) +14% (from above) = 51%

So even if he ignores wound penalties on his attacks, this murder machine has better-than-even odds of being crippled, and pretty good odds of ending up dead.

In conclusion? L5R has way too few major characters getting ignominiously shanked by mooks, given how lethal the combat system is.
 
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Still, this entire thing seems to me to argue
"Being ganged up on by six on one odds with no armor or prep time makes you easy to kill"
Not
"The system and fictions don't line up"

Oddly ambush is actually fairly rare and when it does happen people usually die because of it, so I'm not seeing this disconnect.


Put either of them in armour they do a lot better, let either of them use void to boost armour TN to 40/45, and they're basically untouchable that round, let either of them move around instead of just standing there and whacking away and they do better. (They both have simple attack actions the goblins don't. So hit and run should work unless you give some of the goblins ranged weapons which changes the math.) For Toshiken especially the ability to use manoeuvres means he's doing the extra attack manoeuvre and killing three gobbo's a round not just two.

I don't think the system is that bad, but let's not shit up WK's thread more.
 
Rising Tempest - 4.1
We're back.
o\O/o​


Everything is a blur as you rush back to Shiro Kitsuki, practically racing ahead of the army. You can hear them behind you, of course, marching at a fast pace at their Daimyo's behest. But all of that is secondary to the driving urge fueling your limbs. You hardly even notice the city gates before you as you dash through them, focused so intently on the castle and the words the Miya delivered just an hour ago.

The Crab Clan are at open war with the Shadowlands.

It started without me, you wonder in shocked amazement as you dash toward the castle. The war started and I wasn't there.

Yasuki Goro has to be informed of this. He is likely already aware, but if there is even the smallest chance he is ignorant of these matters then you have to tell him. Surely there is something that you can do, and if so then your Lord will surely know it.

The Mirumoto at the castle gates call out a greeting as run toward them, but you don't have any time to spare in response. You rush inside and up the stairs, making your way to where your delegation is stationed. Still in your armor and covered in sweat, your breath coming out in harsh gasps, you soon stand before your Lord's chambers.

"Yasuki-sama!" you call, knocking on the wall next to the door. "Yasuki-sama, are you in?"

"Yes, Sosuke-san," Yasuki Goro responds. "Enter! There's much that has to be done!"

You slide open the door, bowing quickly as you do. As you rise, you step inside and close the door behind you. Yasuki Goro is scowling at a number of papers set on the room's table, writing with furious speed within a journal as he reads. The man's clothing is disheveled, as if he hasn't had time to properly take care of his appearance, and you see several empty cups of tea next to his free hand.

The sight of him makes you stop short. This is the first time you've ever seen your Lord anything but impeccably dressed and in control, and the difference is so discomforting that your jaw almost drops. Thankfully, you recover before you make a complete fool of yourself.

"Yasuki-sama," you say, pausing but a moment to catch your breath. "Yasuki-sama, there has been news from the south. The Great Carpenter Wall is under attack and our Clan is at war!"

"I know," Yasuki Goro replied, his scowl deepening. "Miya-san was courteous enough to inform me considering the news relates to our Clan." He looks up. "I presume he rode out to meet you as the army returned?"

"Yes, Yasuki-sama," you answer. "Is there anything we can do? Should we return south?"

"Not without that Jade," the courtier replies, turning back to his writing. "We'll need to increase our efforts here, though we'll be moving faster than I would prefer. I've been compiling information on each of the diplomats, and I believe I have a plan that could work. We'll need to keep the Crane delegation a bay while we work on the Dragon. Perhaps the Scorpion could…"

"Forgive my interruption, Yasuki-sama, but there is no need," you say before the man could work himself up into a full speech. "Kitsuki-sama spoke with me on the march back and he informed me he will part with three times the amount of Jade as Imperially mandated."

Yasuki Goro's head shoots up, his eyes wide with surprise. "Are you sure?"

"Completely, Yasuki-sama," you answer. "He spoke those words to me this very day."

"That is excellent," the courtier whispers. "Excellent indeed." He stood up, his joints popping audibly as he stretches out his limbs. "Kitsuki-sama will no doubt be calling for me in order to finalize the proper details of the arrangement. I will do my best to ensure this process moves as swiftly as possible, and then we shall return south with the Jade."

"As you say, Yasuki-sama," you reply. "I can only hope we return in time to make a difference."

"I'm going to make sure of that," Yasuki Goro says, his eyes practically alight as he makes his way towards his dresser. He pulls out a fresh kimono and lays it on his bed. "After I have completed discussions with Kitsuki Ryojiro-sama, we shall head to Toshi Ranbo and take a Mantis ship from the Drowned Merchant River all the way out to the coast!"

You blink. "That is an excellent plan, Yasuki-sama! We'll be back south in just a few weeks if we go by ship!"

"That is the idea, Sosuke-san," Yasuki Goro responds, turning back to you. "I hope for us to depart tomorrow or the day after. If you have anything you wish to do within this city, I recommend you see it finished soon."

[] Interact with your comrades. (Write in.)
[] Timeskip to Toshi Ranbo.
[] Write in.
 
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[X] Interact with your comrades.
-[X] Get a meal together if you can with your comrades.

We owe them an explanation, at least.
 
[X] Interact with your comrades.
-[X] Get a meal together if you can with your comrades.
 
[X] Interact with your comrades.
-[X] Get a meal together if you can with your comrades.

We do need to give our loverer a chance to find out where we are going and stalk us there. Then to arrange a 'chance' meet up. :lol

Its good to see this quest going again. I enjoy it.;)
 
Oh, yay. Welcome back, WK. :)

[X] Interact with your comrades.
-[X] Get a meal together if you can with your comrades.
 
[X] Interact with your comrades.
-[X] Get a meal together if you can with your comrades.
 
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