Glory of the Emerald Empire (Legend of the 5 Rings Quest)
- Thread starter Winged Knight
- Start date
- Fantasy
I think that lying about this is going to rebound much harder when we're inevitably caught, not to mention the meta-physical implications. Self-deception is all about what the Nothing is about, and we've just been involved in a massive fight with them. We don't want to invite it in like this, which is how I see this kind of sophistry.
[X] "I... I think I was the Sun."
Honesty, first to yourself, and then to others, is a virtue. It may involve consequences that are challenging for Sosuke, but hiding from them is cowardice, pure and simple, which is something he should also avoid, even sub-consciously.
[X] "I... I think I was the Sun."
Honesty, first to yourself, and then to others, is a virtue. It may involve consequences that are challenging for Sosuke, but hiding from them is cowardice, pure and simple, which is something he should also avoid, even sub-consciously.
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Winged Knight
Still just a crazy man with a wolf on his head
- Location
- Texas
Well, that was certainly an intensive bout of voting and discussion. Could someone compile the votes so far? I'm not calling the vote until later today, but I'd just like to have a list now so I have an idea where the consensus is heading.
Getting this from the vote tally, anyone missing?
Vote tally:
##### 3.21
[x] I sunned so hard...can't think, everything is pain, pain....reincarnation amirite?
No. of votes: 1
gman391
[X] Remain silent.
No. of votes: 7
Eliar, will408914, Da Boyz, Lalzparty, cokerpilot, Seventeen, Scia
[X] I... I think I was the Sun.
No. of votes: 7
The Sandman, Storm Jumper, Eri, ichypa, noliar, aceraptor, Alratan
[X] .....me, you croak. It was me.
No. of votes: 14
runeblue360, Vanguard_D, Deadly Snark, Lost Star, Kelenas, Usernames, Nix's Warden, minimap_op, Eri, IonicTiger, Malkavian, Rook, HastyGaming, Wing101
[x] ...Yakamo's...blessing...hurts....
No. of votes: 13
Candesce, Sirrocco, EtchedSteel, Garlak, avonphoenix, Varano, Noctum, Broken25, storybookknight, Felius, Bommelom, Dirtnap, Dovahsith
Vote tally:
##### 3.21
[x] I sunned so hard...can't think, everything is pain, pain....reincarnation amirite?
No. of votes: 1
gman391
[X] Remain silent.
No. of votes: 7
Eliar, will408914, Da Boyz, Lalzparty, cokerpilot, Seventeen, Scia
[X] I... I think I was the Sun.
No. of votes: 7
The Sandman, Storm Jumper, Eri, ichypa, noliar, aceraptor, Alratan
[X] .....me, you croak. It was me.
No. of votes: 14
runeblue360, Vanguard_D, Deadly Snark, Lost Star, Kelenas, Usernames, Nix's Warden, minimap_op, Eri, IonicTiger, Malkavian, Rook, HastyGaming, Wing101
[x] ...Yakamo's...blessing...hurts....
No. of votes: 13
Candesce, Sirrocco, EtchedSteel, Garlak, avonphoenix, Varano, Noctum, Broken25, storybookknight, Felius, Bommelom, Dirtnap, Dovahsith
I do think people should consider the issues with Sousuke embracing a quite fundamental level of self-deception, down to the soul, at a time like this. Whether it's conscious or not, that's still what he's doing.
This is a character defining moment, and he shouldn't be running and hiding from the truth here. Particularly after just fighting the embodiment of deceit.
The results of being sincere may be difficult, they may be challenging. Is that a reason for a true samurai to refuse to do them? Sousuke's actions were those of the sun. As a result, so should his words.
This is a character defining moment, and he shouldn't be running and hiding from the truth here. Particularly after just fighting the embodiment of deceit.
The results of being sincere may be difficult, they may be challenging. Is that a reason for a true samurai to refuse to do them? Sousuke's actions were those of the sun. As a result, so should his words.
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Sirrocco
Pedantic
Sousuke has something of a tradition of bending the truth in service to being more honorable elsewhere. Also, I think that it's being misinterpreted a bit.
- We've known in-character for some time that this was A Thing. We didn't know what caused it, but it sure wasn't normal, and we've definitely had some implications that it was Sun-related. (We still don't know who that woman was, but Amaterasu was a not unreasonable thought, and "overwhelming heat and fire that scourges the enemies of Rokugan" is enough oriented to the sun that you have to at least consider it as an option.) Also, that whole "Yakamo was the Sun" thingis pretty deeply ingrained in Crab Clan culture. "This somehow came from Hida Yakamo" had to be somewhere on our list of plausible explanations even before the shadow-guy said anything.
- We know that remaining silent is, essentially, asking the Master of Fire to besmirch his own honor for us. That's the sort of thing that Sousuke generally isn't okay with.
- We know that claiming to *be* Yakamo or *be* the sun is likely to produce quite a lot of Drama very quickly, and distract from our mission. If it turns out that we're wrong, it's also likely to do Bad Things socially - to us, to the mission, and potentially to the Clan. Suggesting that we were merely empowered by him, though, is a lot less threatening.
- Maybe the shadowspawn lied. Maybe he spoke truth. Maybe it was a mix of the two (that last is popular among manipulative villains). We don't know.
My take on the vote is that IC, we don't know, and we know we don't know. Our best guess is that we're somehow the reincarnation of Yakamo, but it's entirely plausible that we've just been blessed (heavily and painfully) by him, or that this is something else sun-related (Amaterasu? The Jade Dragon?) or that this is something else altogether. We know that we don't want Akio claiming it, because that *would* be lying (and we don't want to be the cause of his dishonor), and he'd probably be found out later when we did it somewhere else (and we don't want to be the cause of his shame). At the same time, we don't want the arrogance or the potential social downsides of claiming that it was us - at least, not until we know more. Suggesting that we think it a blessing of Yakamo isn't technically lying, it gets Akio off the hook, and it limits the disruption that might result until we can talk with our Boss and/or the Kuni about this and come up with a plan to handle it properly. It's also an easy supposition to walk away from if it turns out that we want to out ourselves as his reincarnation or something - Obvious Solar Darkness-smiting coming from a Very Hida Bushi? Why *wouldn't* we think it was Yakamo blessing us in some fashion?
The fact that Sosuke can answer accurately demonstrates that at some level he knows the truth, and that if we chose for him not to that's a choice at some level.
Self-deception is the worst kind of deception in this situation.
And it is technically lying, and it's the kind of lie that the Nothing is based on, about identity. Very much so.
I'd say that it clearly breaches three of the tenets of bushido to do this, and should reduce in a serious
Yakamo is also dead, and known to have been replaced, and directly lying about him being active and blessing people as a kami would will also probably cause problems, particularly as there are people near by who would be very unhappy to hear that is the case. They might want to vigorously suppress any evidence to the contrary.
Self-deception is the worst kind of deception in this situation.
And it is technically lying, and it's the kind of lie that the Nothing is based on, about identity. Very much so.
I'd say that it clearly breaches three of the tenets of bushido to do this, and should reduce in a serious
Yakamo is also dead, and known to have been replaced, and directly lying about him being active and blessing people as a kami would will also probably cause problems, particularly as there are people near by who would be very unhappy to hear that is the case. They might want to vigorously suppress any evidence to the contrary.
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IonicTiger
Extremely bewildered sailing vessel.
- Location
- Take a left at Albuquerque
All right, changing vote:
[x] "...Yakamo's...blessing...hurts...."
[x] "...Yakamo's...blessing...hurts...."
Sirrocco
Pedantic
- The actual quote was "Yakamo's blessing hurts". Given that there's a shugenja spell out there called "fury of Osana-wo" that presumably doesn't actually call for the Fortune to get pissed every time you use it (or even to get directly involved) it's entirely reasonable to describe what happened to us as "Yakamo's Blessing"... and it's certianly the case that it hurts. Thus, no, it's not technically a lie. It is a blessing, and it's pretty obviously Yakamo-themed.
- There's absolutely nothing about self-deception. To the degree that Sousuke is shading the truth, he knows he's shading the truth, and is doing so for what he considers to be goo and sufficient reasons.
- Please name the three tenets you're talking about here, because I really don't see them.
- Ancestor spirits are really pretty common. The fact that sometimes the more impressive dead come back to offer blessings to their descendants is not news - and for all that he's a Hiruma, Sousuke obviously carries a decent dollop of Hida blood.
Shujenja do call on the kami's powers directly, I think. A spell called the fury of Osana-wo may well literally call on the Fortune's perpetual fury.
I don't get the impression at all from the update that Sousuke is at all in a fit start to be making political judgements about the degree to which to shade the truth.
Sincerity, because his actions in being the sun to defy the Nothing just now and his words in denying it don't match.
Honestly, because it's a direct lie that this was a blessing.
Honour, because by doing this he would be hiding from himself.
Yakumo doing so to this extraordinary degree would clearly not be anything like a regular ancestor spirit.
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What do you mean it's a lie that this was a blessing?
Would you consider it a curse instead?
Would you consider it a curse instead?
- Location
- United Kingdom
[X] ".....me," you croak. "It was me."
I prefer this over the other options. It directly answers Himawari's concern that Asako did something that caused Sosuke's current state (and previous abilities) and puts us in a decent place to then be honest in that we don't know exactly what happened. We know that when - who we believe to be Yakumo - spoke he talked about this being how 'he was going to end' and how Sosuke was "a legend now, boy. Or, perhaps, the continuation of one," and with that being said it's a bit of a stretch to then just have Sosuke honestly assume it's a blessing rather than something more.
We know the power is within Sosuke from when Himawari looked to see if he had been blessed by the ancestors - "But there is more… I sense a great weight, insubstantial yet vast, within the depths of your soul. It defies observation, hidden deep inside you. I cannot make it out." - so admitting that it was Sosuke who did this but we don't know exactly what is going on seems like the most honest answer, and best plan to me.
I prefer this over the other options. It directly answers Himawari's concern that Asako did something that caused Sosuke's current state (and previous abilities) and puts us in a decent place to then be honest in that we don't know exactly what happened. We know that when - who we believe to be Yakumo - spoke he talked about this being how 'he was going to end' and how Sosuke was "a legend now, boy. Or, perhaps, the continuation of one," and with that being said it's a bit of a stretch to then just have Sosuke honestly assume it's a blessing rather than something more.
We know the power is within Sosuke from when Himawari looked to see if he had been blessed by the ancestors - "But there is more… I sense a great weight, insubstantial yet vast, within the depths of your soul. It defies observation, hidden deep inside you. I cannot make it out." - so admitting that it was Sosuke who did this but we don't know exactly what is going on seems like the most honest answer, and best plan to me.
[x]"I'll explain.... later"
Sirrocco
Pedantic
Okay, having looked it up, that particular spell actually is a prayer to the big guy himself, so I was wrong there. I still think that Rokugan is the sort of place where people are inclined to ascribe things to the kami and the fortunes, whether or not those things actually come from the actions of that kami or that fortune. You might say, as a colloquialism, "Inari has blessed us this year." to say that the rice crop was particularly good without necessarily meaning that you thought that the fortune had intervened for you personally. It's the sort of figure of speech that people use.
Nope, which is why he's punting. My vote's him saying "I don't want Akio to besmirch himself for me, and I'm not prepared to deal with claiming this pwoer for my own. Yakamo! I'll imply that Yakamo did it. That's plausible - and it might be true. There was *something* about Yakamo going on in that muddle."
Sincerity and Honesty are the same principle, and I'd love to see your explanation for how "hiding from yourself" is a violation of Honour. It's not the interpretation as I understood it.
He doesn't actually know he was the Sun. Indeed, I personally don't agree that he was the Sun. I think he was channelling Sun-like power from somewhere else. Are you suggesting that "I was the sun" is more plausible (both for Sousuke and for the listeners) than "Yakamo is particularly enthusiastic with his blessings"?
As far as I can read things (and read things at the time) this was indeed whatever it is that's doing the sunfire thing, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it wasn't a blessing by someone or something else.
Also, implicitly believing an entity who spent a long time literally called 'the Lying darkness' is like a really bad idea? I think it is, anyway.
cokerpilot
Here comes the rain.
[x] "...Yakamo's...blessing...hurts...."
Sirrocco
Pedantic
Was that an argument against me or against someone else? I certainly wasn't suggesting that we implicitly believe the shadow-guy. If it seemed that I was, then I'd love to know where so I can clarify.
Nah I'm more addressing al's 'lying to yourself' thing. It's only 'lying to yourself' if you are fully believing deep in your heart what a manipulative liar told you.
Which personally I think is a far more likely course of action to result in being manipulated by that liar.
Anyway, Curse of Fatal Death references aside...
[x] "...Yakamo's...blessing...hurts...."
Which personally I think is a far more likely course of action to result in being manipulated by that liar.
Anyway, Curse of Fatal Death references aside...
[x] "...Yakamo's...blessing...hurts...."
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Winged Knight
Still just a crazy man with a wolf on his head
- Location
- Texas
Vote called! Could someone please tally up the new count? I'll have the update up in a few hours after I know the consensus.