Gestalt (Human Group Mind in WH40K)

[Enthusiast#117]

Okay, when I cut out the T3 Hydroponics, my plan enters it's current state where it only takes 11 years to finish.
The math works out, and we can always do it later if we want it, I guess.
Is that more palatable?

 

[10ebbor10]

Decent enough for me. I'll go over stuff and such tomorrow.

 

[KhazintheDark]

We have four years until the current rejuvenant treatment runs out. So our focus should be a four year plan that does the following:

Finish building hothouses
At minimum design ground-based juvenant
Any spare industry should built said juvenant facility.

Could someone run the numbers to see where there's a lack of overlap?

Edit: Alternatively we could grab the refinery, pack up what we've already built and find a better planet. The downside of a more habitable world however is that there will be native fauna and flora. Plus given Deathworlds exist we may want a T1 or T2 satellite so we can check whether the tropical paradise below us is actually a colourful hell.

 

[WorldSlayer]

Okay, when I cut out the T3 Hydroponics, my plan enters it's current state where it only takes 11 years to finish.
The math works out, and we can always do it later if we want it, I guess.
Is that more palatable?

Click to shrink...

You should move the satellite up (or build a cheap lowtech one and decommission it later). Remember building the satellite should increase construction efficiency.

Optionally you might also want to build Camouflage System (Tech Level 3) earlier.

It's not a plan I'd vote for though since it's clear you want to stay around for ages (there's no fuel refinery) despite the fact this place is really crap.


[X] Let's get off this iceball with some changes
-[X] 25 hour work week (15 million man hours per year)
-[X] Hydroponics work (666,666/year)
-[X] Weather Satellites (Tech Level 0) 450,000 emh (about 2 million actual man hours)
-[X] Hothouse construction (3,288,774.46 emh)
-[X] Hothouse use (1,000,000/year)
-[X] Year 9 Get Perk: Improved Group Mind Skillsharing I - Cost: 1000 exp, 100.000 effective man-hours of research
-[X] Genetics & Rejuvenat Facility (Tech Level 3) (16,000,000 emh design)(8,000,000 emh construction)
-[X] Fuel Refinery (tech level 1)(16,800,000 emh design)(8,400,000 emh construction)
-[X] keep going until everything is complete or something comes up.
-[X] Overflow into: Design Stealthy Space Observation Satellites (Tech Level 3)
-[X] Overflow into: Design Volkite Turrets (Tech Level 3)

Yeah after running some math I've decided that ground based is probably the way to go.

 

[Vlad]

Shouldn't we already have Shipboard Hydroponics design on account of having one already on the ship?

 

[Enthusiast#117]

You should move the satellite up (or build a cheap lowtech one and decommission it later). Remember building the satellite should increase construction efficiency.

Optionally you might also want to build Camouflage System (Tech Level 3) earlier.

It's not a plan I'd vote for though since it's clear you want to stay around for ages (there's no fuel refinery) despite the fact this place is really crap.

Click to shrink...

We already have fuel. We have 6 units of fuel, which is good for 6 years.
We have comparatively less parts. We have 2 units of parts, which is good for 2 years.
The ship consumes one of each resource when it is not planet-bound.

If you want to increase the operational life of our ship, you should be going for the T3 Heavy Industry because only it can make the parts we need, and that's the bottleneck right now.

As for the satellite, I agree it should be built, but I figure it like this:
Escaping before an enemy ship arrives > Hiding from enemy ships > fighting off theoretical wildlife > efficiency of the economy
All are needed, but I slated them for construction in that order of priority.

 

[Red Bovine]

Surprised one is voting to make Rudimentary Space Observation Satellites since those have a chance of warning us if someone approaches the planet we are currently at.

 

[10ebbor10]

Shouldn't we already have Shipboard Hydroponics design on account of having one already on the ship?

Click to shrink...

Nah. We have the physical equipment, but no manual on how to build it.

Surprised one is voting to make Rudimentary Space Observation Satellites since those have a chance of warning us if someone approaches the planet we are currently at.

Click to shrink...

My plan has one.

We have comparatively less parts. We have 2 units of parts, which is good for 2 years.

Click to shrink...

I think refits happen every 100 years, unless I got confused about that.

Could someone run the numbers to see where there's a lack of overlap?

Click to shrink...

I'm not sure what you mean, but If I understand the nature of the question, my sheet should provide the answer.

 

[10ebbor10]

Anyway, if the goal is to minimize ageing, here's a plan that focusses all available resources on Juvenat ASAP.


[x]Plan Rapid Anti-ageing
-[X] 25 hours work per week
-[X] All years

- [X] use Hydroponics​

- [X] Year 1

- [X]First Priority : Design Land version of Genetic Thingy​

- [X] Year 2

- [X]First priority : Finish Designing Land version of Genetic thingy
- [X]Second Priority : Commence construction of Genetic Thingy​

- [X] Year 3-5

- [X] First priority : Design Weather based Sat Tech 3
- [X]Second Priority : Construct Weather based Sat Tech 3
- [X]Third priority : Continue Construction of Genetic Thingy
- [X]Auxiliary resources: Design things following the design list​

- [X] Year 6-7

- [X]First Priority : Finish Genetic Thingy Land version
- [X]Second Priority : Finish Construction on Hothouse
- [X]Upkeep changes : Manpower dedicated for Juvenat of entire population for following years
- [X]Auxilary resources: Design things following the design list​

- [X] Year 8

- [X]First Priority : Finish Hothouse
- [X]Second Priority : Construct things following the construction list
- [X]Third priority : Design things following design list
- [X]Upkeep change : Operate Hothouse for following years​

- [X] Year 9

- [X]First priority : Improved Group Mind Skillsharing I
- [X]Second Priority : Construct things following construction list
- [X]Third priority : Design things following design list​

-[X] Design List ( 23,370,940 emh estimate)

- [X]Stealthy Space Observation Satellites (Tech Level 3) 4,000,000
- [X] Volkite Turrets (Tech Level 3) : 4 000 000
- [X]"Chameleon" Camouflage System : 4 000 000
- [X]Remainder Fuel Refinery T1 : 16,800,000 ​

-[X] Construction list (3,032,192.45 emh estimate)

- [X]Stealthy Space Observation Satellites (Tech Level 3):600 000
- [X]Barbed Wire, Fences & Cameras (Tech Level 0): 150 000
- [X]Volkite Turrets (Tech Level 3): 600 000
- [X]"Chameleon" Camouflage System (Tech Level 3) = 600 000* 2 = Ship + Gene building
- [X]Remainder : "Chameleon" Camouflage System (Tech Level 3) for Hothouse 600 000
- [X]If by some miracle there's still excess : Mass Produce alloys​

Advantages :
- Finishes Gene Therapy 25% faster than most other plans (6 years instead of 8) and much faster than my other plan(10 years).
- Optimal Placement of construction bonusses : The observation sats allow us to survey the planet, and predict the weather. That should improve our industry, and this plan places them before construction. Even if they don't benefit however, the margins are wide enough that the overall plan is not delayed.
- Decent safety margins. Should be resistant to shedule slippage
- Gets a lot of design work done
- Gets some decent construction done too
- Flexible plan, as the design list can be switched out for other needs

 

[Skjadir]

In some ways this makes sense but how long are we going to be traveling around for? If we spend too long traveling our rejuv will lose effectiveness and our population will start dying. Also we'd have to account for the time it takes to build a new rejuv.

Still on a quick glance the general idea seems fairly sound. I suppose it depends on how often we need to reapply rejuv to keep it effective and how bad it is to to have treatment interrupted.
@Driven by Apathy Can you give us some information on this?

It might end up being best to forget the rejuv for now and grab the satellite and the refinery and move as quickly as possible.

Edit: MATH

For a ground based rejuv facility It would take 22.54m design hours and (at current efficiency, which should actually go up with the satellite) 34.78m construction hours (57.32m total) We would then have to build a new facility wherever we end up which is 8m hours without modifiers, if we assume say 80% efficiency (based off nothing since we have no figures to work with here) at wherever we end up then that's +10 hours or 67.32m hours total.

Ship based is 33.80m design + 52.17m construction is 85.98m total.

The savings are potentially quite significant (around 18.5m hours with this estimate). Of course this assumes the time spent without rejuv doesn't cause a bunch of damage. Considering there's the travel time + the construction time of new rejuv + any incidents that cause delays we could end up having to go years without keeping up the treatments.

edit again:

Aha I knew I remembered something about 5 years. Ok running some more math.

Click to shrink...

we can take the rejuv facility with us it just won´t work while it is on the ship.

Also working on a
[X] Let's get off this iceball with some changes v2
-[X] 25 hour work week (15 million man hours per year)
-[X] Hydroponics work (666,666/year)
-[X] Weather Satellites (Tech Level 0) 450,000 emh (about 2 million actual man hours)
-[X] Rudimentary Space Observation Satellites (Tech Level 0) 450,000 emh (about 2 million actual man hours)
-[X] Year 9 Get Perk: Improved Group Mind Skillsharing I - Cost: 1000 exp, 100.000 effective man-hours of research
-[X] Genetics & Rejuvenat Facility (Tech Level 3) (16,000,000 emh design)(8,000,000 emh construction)
-[X] work in the Genetics & Rejuvenat Facility to get Rejuvenat to all our people.
-[X] Hothouse construction (3,288,774.46 emh)
-[X] Hothouse use (1,000,000/year) (stop when you have 5 units of food stockpiled)
-[X] Fuel Refinery (tech level 1)(16,800,000 emh design)(8,400,000 emh construction)
-[X] keep going until everything is complete or something comes up.
-[X] Overflow into: Design Stealthy Space Observation Satellites (Tech Level 3)
-[X] Overflow into: Design Volkite Turrets (Tech Level 3)
-[X] Overflow into: "Chameleon" Camouflage System (Tech Level 3)
-[X] Overflow into: Stealthy Surface Observation Satellites (Tech Level 3):


This combination of optical camouflage, emissions management, and a number of radiation-bending field generators will make detection by any sort of sensor system relying on the electromagnetic spectrum extremely difficult, at least unless whoever is looking takes a very close look. Thankfully the generators are easy to maintain and power, and don't require noteworthy upkeep.

that has the space stat and more overflow because Fuel 1 is going to take some time to build and we will have some Design space free there.

i will do some math on how much overflow we will have in the development part to see what we can get.

Edit: also changeing around how high certain prios are => Genetics & Rejuvenat Facility is more important then the hothouse.

 

[backgroundnoise]

*twitches* Okay... I don't really know how to work a spreadsheet, so I'm doing it all live, hold onto your butts. Simple fact is, I don't like the available plans, the inefficiencies chafe at me, and though we may have Dark Age level tech, that's no reason to be sloppy.

[ ] Plan: Get Your Shit Together (Get It All Into a Bag, And Just... Get It Together)
-[ ] 25 hour work week (15 million man hours per year)

Starting off light 'cause we're all out of shape, it's a good balance between getting shit done and keeping stress low. Barely more than a part time job by our standards.
(I guess they brought with them some Dark Age Gameboys or something? Don't know how they aren't going to go stir-crazy with all that free time and so much to do.)

-[] Hydroponics work (666,666/year)
-[] Hothouse construction (3,288,774.46 emh)
-[] Hothouse use (1,000,000/year)

Finishing up on our food production, at least for now. Bites into our budget a bit, but makes sure there's a soy-chicken in every pot, and we need that right now. Both for serious potential starvation reasons, and for morale reasons. Still, we got 10,000,000 hours left (rounding down), so we should be able to get some stuff done this year.

-[] Barbed Wire, Fences & Cameras (Tech Level 0) ((150,000))

Rudimentary I know, but for now? We just need to worry about wildlife. It's only been a few years people, we have a Dark Age ship, are using maps of the galaxy no one else has, and whatever the Emperor did probably caused a localized Warp-quake. Chances of somebody A.) stumbling across us, and B.) actually have any idea who we are, are so low as to be almost negligible at this point.

-[] Autogun Turrets (Tech Level 1):
--[] Development cost: 1,000,000 emh
--[] Construction cost: 500,000 emh

If there's any wildlife worth speaking of, that probably means yetis. What, you think I'm kidding? This is 40k son, we'd be lucky if there were only space yeti.

-[] Light Industry (Tech Level 1):
--[] Development cost: 8,394,559.54 emh

So 'bout halfway to our first real industrial boost. Okay, so here's my plan... no, not the plan I just wrote, I mean long term. First we get food taken care of, then we start taking basic safety measures. Every year we dedicate a portion of the budget to either making ourselves a hard target, or just more difficult to detect in general. Next we focus on industry, slowly working our way up to Heavy Industry (Tech Tier 3), which we need, if we want our ship to be of any further use.

What about the Juvenat you may ask? Well... that's next year's project, we finish up the Development on Light Industry, buy ourselves some better defenses/stealth/sensory, and then dump the rest into Juvenat. On-board Juvenat? We can do that, but we have to agree to make it a priority, we only have several years worth of Juvenat remaining, which means that we have to finish within that time-frame. We can't afford to take that big a hit to morale, and increasing the amount of work we have to do by a full fifty percent cuts into our developing industry, as well as our defenses, all of which are vital things we have to do.

Will potentially post a (Year 2) plan later, but for right now I just wanted to grind out my 'emergency measures' plan.

 

[10ebbor10]

Simple fact is, I don't like the available plans, the inefficiencies chafe at me, and though we may have Dark Age level tech, that's no reason to be sloppy.

Click to shrink...

Mind pointing out what inefficiencies you see?

On that note, I'm going to point out a very big inefficiency in yours. You forgot to account for the fact that 1 man hour does not equal 1 effective manhour. Put simply, you're assuming industry is about 5 times more efficient than it actually is. For design, the difference is not that bad (you assume it's 50% more efficient than it is). So, we can't finish Hothouse construction in a single year. We're not getting halfway to Light Industry.

Oh, and even if designed Light Industry construction will take 2 decades. Picking that means giving up on Juvenat for a long time.

Edit: also changeing around how high certain prios are => Genetics & Rejuvenat Facility is more important then the hothouse.

Click to shrink...

You may want to look at the plan I posted up above. It does pretty much what you want, I think. Feel free to use it as a base for your own plan.

 

[backgroundnoise]

Mind pointing out what inefficiencies you see?

On that note, I'm going to point out a very big inefficiency in yours. You forgot to account for the fact that 1 man hour does not equal 1 effective manhour. Put simply, you're assuming industry is about 5 times more efficient than it actually is. We can't finish Hothouse construction in a single year.

Click to shrink...

*blinks slowly, breathes deeply* Okay then... why exactly is are man hours separated into man hours and effective man hours? If the one that matters for our calculations is effective man hours, that should be what is listed. Our resources, how much we have to spend a turn, and how much it costs to do a thing. Man hours, as a measurement, seems superfluous at this point.

As for my comments about inefficiency... let's start with your newest plan:
1. We continue rationing until year eight, people are already talking about going hungry and getting flashbacks to the Fall of Earth. This is not a good thing, especially not for morale.
2. You haven't even scratched industry within the entirety of your plan.
3. We aren't gonna need Volkite Turrets unless you expect us to be dealing with an invasion rather soon, which would be news to me. Focus on deterring the local wildlife first, then worry about an invasion.
4. Your plan has us lacking in basic defenses for the better part of a decade, it's not a very safe plan. If this planet has hostile wildlife we might be fucked.

Pretty much every plan I've seen so far was discarded for similar reasons. So... yeah, I made my own plan because I want our bases covered, it'd suck if we started losing pop for silly reasons like not having anything to discourage wildlife attacks, or just not having enough food to feed people.

 

[Skjadir]

*blinks slowly, breathes deeply* Okay then... why exactly is are man hours separated into man hours and effective man hours? If the one that matters for our calculations is effective man hours, that should be what is listed. Our resources, how much we have to spend a turn, and how much it costs to do a thing. Man hours, as a measurement, seems superfluous at this point.

As for my comments about inefficiency... let's start with your newest plan:
1. We continue rationing until year eight, people are already talking about going hungry and getting flashbacks to the Fall of Earth. This is not a good thing, especially not for morale.
2. You haven't even scratched industry within the entirety of your plan.
3. We aren't gonna need Volkite Turrets unless you expect us to be dealing with an invasion rather soon, which would be news to me. Focus on deterring the local wildlife first, then worry about an invasion.
4. Your plan has us lacking in basic defenses for the better part of a decade, it's not a very safe plan. If this planet has hostile wildlife we might be fucked.

Pretty much every plan I've seen so far was discarded for similar reasons. So... yeah, I made my own plan because I want our bases covered, it'd suck if we started losing pop for silly reasons like not having anything to discourage wildlife attacks, or just not having enough food to feed people.

Click to shrink...

For design work we have a *1.4 mod on it => 1,4 mh = 1emh
For Construction we currently have a *4.3 mod on it => 4.3 mh = 1emh

if we planet had hostile wildlife we would have know by now.

 

[10ebbor10]

Okay then... why exactly is are man hours separated into man hours and effective man hours? If the one that matters for our calculations is effective man hours, that should be what is listed. Our resources, how much we have to spend a turn, and how much it costs to do a thing. Man hours, as a measurement, seems superfluous at this point.

Click to shrink...

The effectiveness factor can change based on circumstances. In addition, there are different factors for different tasks, such as research, construction and all that. So, manhours is the resource which is then converted with a variable factor into emh.

As for your complaints.
1. The GM has explicitedly said there are no effects of rationing
2. There's no point in scratching industry. Industry will take around 25 years to research and build.
3. The extra cost of Volkite turrets doesn't really affect the plan. They're only 20% more expensive in construction time, for a massive jump in capability. Going for the best affordable thing is significantly more efficient.
4. We've seen no dangerous wildlife. I'm building the Volkites more because they're a affordable and can be taken with us then as a serious defensive measure.

 

[backgroundnoise]

For design work we have a *1.4 mod on it
For Construction we currently have a *4.3 mod on it

if we planet had hostile wildlife we would have know by now.

Click to shrink...

And we're expected to do the calculations ourselves I suppose? Great, that's just... fantastic *sighs*. And no, not necessarily. Again, it's 40k, 'the galaxy is big, weird, and absurdly dangerous' should be a tagline. Entire Imperial colonies (more well-defended than our little settlement, might I add) have randomly gone dark because of something as simple as a migration of the local mega-fauna that occurs once every hundred years or so.

 

[WorldSlayer]

OK I've come up with a new and excellent plan.

[X] Let's leave.
-[X] We leave this shithole and go looking for somewhere better.

We've got 6 years of fuel and can keep going easily with our hydroponics. We've found out it's simply too difficult to get anything done here so let's leave. Let's not get lost in sunk cost fallacies, yes we spent some time building a bit of a Hothouse but we can stick what we can in the cargo bays and forget about the rest.

 

[10ebbor10]

Why do you think I made a spreadsheet. It's not because the calculations are trivial.

And no, not necessarily. Again, it's 40k, 'the galaxy is big, weird, and absurdly dangerous' should be a tagline. Entire Imperial colonies (more well-defended than our little settlement, might I add) have randomly gone dark because of something as simple as a migration of the local mega-fauna that occurs every ten years or so.

Click to shrink...

A decent argument, I guess. My plan can be adjusted to build a perimeter fence earlier, at the risk of cannibalizing the safety margins.

That said, my plan also deploys an advanced survey sat in year 3. If it detects any dangerous wildlife, it will trigger a turn interrupt.

We've got 6 years of fuel and can keep going easily with our hydroponics. We've found out it's simply too difficult to get anything done here so let's leave. Let's not get lost in sunk cost fallacies, yes we spent some time building a bit of a Hothouse but we can stick what we can in the cargo bays and forget about the rest.

Click to shrink...

Do you have any reason to suspect any other planet will be better? We explicitedly went to the region with shitty resources and few planets.

 

[backgroundnoise]

OK I've come up with a new and excellent plan.

[X] Let's leave.
-[X] We leave this shithole and go looking for somewhere better.

We've got 6 years of fuel and can keep going easily with our hydroponics. We've found out it's simply too difficult to get anything done here so let's leave. Let's not get lost in sunk cost fallacies, yes we spent some time building a bit of a Hothouse but we can stick what we can in the cargo bays and forget about the rest.

Click to shrink...

The issue with that is that the last time we entered into the Warp bad things happened. Maybe we get lucky, maybe we don't, but taking another dip in the Warp, and especially so soon after the last one, carries some measure of risk.

 

[WorldSlayer]

Do you have any reason to suspect any other planet will be better? We explicitedly went to the region with shitty resources and few planets.

Click to shrink...

Yes. We have science level 5 for a a start which means all the good astronav so we know where to go.

The issue with that is that the last time we entered into the Warp bad things happened. Maybe we get lucky, maybe we don't, but taking another dip in the Warp, and especially so soon after the last one, carries some measure of risk.

Click to shrink...

We'll be fine. It's not like we're right next to Sol and we know to suppress our presence now.

 

[backgroundnoise]

Why do you think I made a spreadsheet. It's not because the calculations are trivial.

Click to shrink...

Thank you for that, unfortunately that means I now have to learn how to actually use said spreadsheet if I want to make a plan. Which I can already tell isn't going to be a fun time.

A decent argument, I guess. My plan can be adjusted to build a perimeter fence earlier, at the risk of cannibalizing the safety margins.

That said, my plan also deploys an advanced survey sat in year 3. If it detects any dangerous wildlife, it will trigger a turn interrupt.

Click to shrink...

You do you man, if you think I'm being too paranoid and are okay with a mild chance of a few people getting nabbed? More power to you, I'd wager you have a decent chance of saving everyone a whole lot of time and trouble. It's just that playing 40k games always brings me up to MAXIMUM PARANOIA as a standard response to just about everything. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong, I think it depends a bit on the GM really.

 

[Skjadir]

You may want to look at the plan I posted up above. It does pretty much what you want, I think. Feel free to use it as a base for your own plan.

Click to shrink...

currently my main problem is that fuel 1 isn´t prio one on Design List as while we are building that we can pretty much do the design work for everything else on the list. The rest looks good.

Thank you for that, unfortunately that means I now have to learn how to actually use said spreadsheet if I want to make a plan. Which I can already tell isn't going to be a fun time.



You do you man, if you think I'm being too paranoid and are okay with a mild chance of a few people getting nabbed? More power to you, I'd wager you have a decent chance of saving everyone a lot of time and trouble. It's just that playing 40k games always brings me up to MAXIMUM PARANOIA as a standard response to just about everything. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong, usually, it depends a bit on the GM.

Click to shrink...

This is what we know of the planet after we did look over it with our shipsensors

It's not the sort of world anybody sane would think to settle on. A frigid rock with 0,86 gs gravity, circling a dim red dwarf about 19,000 light years to the galactic west of Terra. The days are short, the temperatures are bone-chilling, and the planet's crust contains little in the way of useful elements. And all other celestial objects in the system are even more uninteresting.

But there is a nitrogen-oxygen atmosphere, even if it's thin. There is water, even if it's usually frozen solid... and there is a small region around the equator where hardy xeno lichen-equivalents stubbornly cling to life.

Either way, finding a habitable world within the first year of searching was almost a miracle, even if the word "habitable" might be overly generous in this case. In the cold rains of the equatorial band, the Reliant lands on a harsh permafrosted plain.

Click to shrink...

see the part where it says the only thing living here is lichen ?

 

[10ebbor10]

Yes. We have science level 5 for a a start which means all the good astronav so we know where to go.

Click to shrink...

That's theoretical knowledge, not practical navigation equipment. In addition, any charts we have are a dozen millenia out of date.

You do you man, if you think I'm being too paranoid and are okay with a mild chance of a few people getting nabbed? More power to you, I'd wager you have a decent chance of saving everyone a whole lot of time and trouble. It's just that playing 40k games always brings me up to MAXIMUM PARANOIA as a standard response to just about everything. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong. I think it depends a bit on the GM.

Click to shrink...

We do have military equipment.

currently my main problem is that fuel one isn´t prio one on Design List as while we are building that we can pretty much do the design work for everything else on the list.

Click to shrink...

I like having some security. In addition, the Tier III observer sattelites let us spy on nearby worlds.

 

[Skjadir]

- [x]Plan Rapid Anti-ageing

you know what it is a good plan overall, it gets the stuff done we need to get done and also doesn´t leave us defenseless so it has my vote.

Improved Group Mind Skillsharing I should have a quite big impact on our mh to emh ration (if we are lucky we get +5-10% out of it) and the weather sat will have paid for itself if it just get us up to 25% mh => emh. (turn the mod from 4.3 to 4 / 0.23 to 0.25 which is alot for the numbers we are speaking here.)

 

[Martenzo]

[x]Plan Rapid Anti-ageing