No offense but why would you want that? Ramsey is like the Joker, he's better when his actions are driven by nothing but his sadistic id. There shouldn't be anything human in a character like Ramsey. He's a monster and monsters aren't meant to be characters. They're just dragons for the heroes to slay.
If he was meant to be a one-note monster they gave him way too much screen time. The Night's King is a better example of that right now, he's an evil ice golem who wants to freeze the world or whatever. More importantly though, he's only shown up a few times so far and each time he has he's had a significant impact on the plot. He shows how new WW are made, kills Bloodraven, marks Bran while he's in a vision somehow, etc. He has impact. Ramsay on the other hand's been ... kinda worn out. Instead of 'oh god what's he gonna do next' the question's become 'oh it's him, I wonder who he's gonna kill this time'.

It'd make him more interesting if he had depth.
 
I get the feeling there's going to be a lot of Dany/Yara shipping even if Dany's reaction to Yara's flirting was clearly just "I'm impressed by the boldness".
Dude, there would be shipping even if they were just on screen together.

Anyway, after seeing his knowledge of maneuver warfare, I can say I would love to see Tormund to an LP of Hearts of Iron.
 
Overall I enjoyed the episode.
-I love Yara a whole lot, Dany in this episode also improved quite a bit for me.

-Rickon biting the dust is kind of a punch to the throat, dude shoulda learned to bob and weave

-Sansa told Jon not to get baited by Ramsay, naturally he did it anyway. Goddammit Jon.

-Up until the completely predictable "Vale comes and saves the day!", that was a really good battle scene. Good pacing, good tension, and I really got the feeling that the directors were going for that Jon, Tormund and anyone else who survived only did so because of sheer luck despite their personal skill. I also particularly liked the Bolton shield wall.

-Jon's epic beat down of Ramsay was phenomenally satisfying, Sansa setting his dogs on him was even more so.

-The only real negative I have against the episode is that I am absolutely convinced that Sansa not telling anyone that the knights of the Vale are on their way is phenomenally stupid, even if Littlefinger betrays people as naturally as he breathes, you'd think she'd mention something as significant as a thousand knights on horseback during the War Council or immediately after when Jon insists that the men they have are all they're going to get.
 
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Sansa: You never thought to ask me about Ramsay!

Me: She has a point, this'd be a good moment for Sansa to show some of the observation skills she gained from being a prisoner, bring up Littlefinger and to highlight the unthinking dismissal of female voi-

Sansa: Don't do what he wants you to do!

Me:..

Me:k.

I actually enjoyed Ramsay's evil shitfuckery nature this episode and I seem harsher towards that Sansa scene that I actually am.I'm not
 
Information: CAREFUL
I really really want Ghost to maul Ramsay to death.
The character of Ramsay is so boring I don't even think he deserves an on screen death. Just get rid of him off screen or something, the less screentime wasted on him the better.

Yes, I know it's not happening, but I can dream.
careful Easy on the death-fantasies, gentlemen. You're alright now, but hold it to that.
 
No offense but why would you want that? Ramsey is like the Joker, he's better when his actions are driven by nothing but his sadistic id. There shouldn't be anything human in a character like Ramsey. He's a monster and monsters aren't meant to be characters. They're just dragons for the heroes to slay.
Even human monsters are human in some way.
 
Man, they really went easy on Ramsay. I mean like... Jon makes a point of saying "well his men will be demoralised when they hear that he turned down the duel". And nothing happens. Ramsay shoots his hostage right in front of his brother for the lulz. And nothing happens. Ramsay orders multiple volleys fired into his own men who outnumbered Jon's forces so statistically speaking he was doing more damage to his own forces than he was to Jon's. And nothing happens. A fucking giant batters down the front door of Winterfell ready to have Hulkamania run wild all over Ramsay's butthole and still those Freys and Boltons who Jon judged as 'unwilling to fight' keep fighting to the death for their complete asshole of a commander? And throughout all of the tide turning, Ramsay looks vaguely annoyed instead of showing any measure of real worry. He just has to get in one more puppykick with the kill-steal on Wun-Wun and he has to go ahead and be fucking pithy about the single-combat thing. And even as Jon goes to town on him like John Hartigan on the Yellow Bastard he reacts more like he's getting a massage while drunk. He had those goofy shrieks while the dogs ate him I guess but too little too late.

I mean like... was it too much to ask for Ramsay to show even a thimbleful of human emotional range when faced with completely fucking up, losing everything and dying? It's hard to feel catharsis for the punishment of a long-running villain when he doesn't seem to give a shit for most of it.
inb4 infracted for talking about Ramsay suffering more because muh fee-fees
Also what the fuck kind of reverse-aimbot EX-ranked Protection From Arrows bullshit was Jon mainlining!? By my count Ramsay ordered six volleys on Jon's position and he didn't get so much as winged by any of them! It's like he anally consumed a giant magnet that made all the arrowheads just skate off!
 
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I actually enjoyed Ramsay's evil shitfuckery nature this episode and I seem harsher towards that Sansa scene that I actually am.I'm not
In all honesty, the hostility leveled towards (Show!?)Sansa in the GoT community is horrifying at times. Likewise Catelyn, if - thankfully - it died down after the Red Wedding. And it only gets more alarming / bizarre when the acts that made [community member] think it pertinent to share their murder-fantasies involving either are duplicated by other characters that... they openly share missing / saying have an undeserved infamy?

tl;dr I feel like I should be surprised people are vocally upset Sansa didn't die with / before Ramsay this episode, but that commentary's getting more predictable than it should be.
 
Man, they really went easy on Ramsay. I mean like... Jon makes a point of saying "well his men will be demoralised when they hear that he turned down the duel". And nothing happens. Ramsay shoots his hostage right in front of his brother for the lulz. And nothing happens. Ramsay orders multiple volleys fired into his own men who outnumbered Jon's forces so statistically speaking he was doing more damage to his own forces than he was to Jon's. And nothing happens. A fucking giant batters down the front door of Winterfell ready to have Hulkamania run wild all over Ramsay's butthole and still those Freys and Boltons who Jon judged as 'unwilling to fight' keep fighting to the death for their complete asshole of a commander? And throughout all of the tide turning, Ramsay looks vaguely annoyed instead of showing any measure of real worry. He just has to get in one more puppykick with the kill-steal on Wun-Wun and he has to go ahead and be fucking pithy about the single-combat thing. And even as Jon goes to town on him like John Hartigan on the Yellow Bastard he reacts more like he's getting a massage while drunk. He had those goofy shrieks while the dogs ate him I guess but too little too late.

I mean like... was it too much to ask for Ramsay to show even a thimbleful of human emotional range when faced with completely fucking up, losing everything and dying? It's hard to feel catharsis for the punishment of a long-running villain when he doesn't seem to give a shit for most of it.
inb4 infracted for talking about Ramsay suffering more because muh fee-fees
Also what the fuck kind of reverse-aimbot EX-ranked Protection From Arrows bullshit was Jon mainlining!? By my count Ramsay ordered six volleys on Jon's position and he didn't get so much as winged by any of them! It's like he anally consumed a giant magnet that made all the arrowheads just skate off!

Jon survived all that for one reason and it's the same as why Arya survived her wounds last episode despite people twice her size and muscle dying from far less. Why dany (from the first episode), Tyrion, Tourmend, Davos and Sansa were at no risk this episodefrom dying or suffering. Plot armor, the book and show has killed of so many characters by this point and have built so much up with these characters that they simply cannot die at all for some of them due to need for some good guy to still be standing by series end. Or until they reach the point where they decide they can kill them for drama and full tear effect.
 
In all honesty, the hostility leveled towards (Show!?)Sansa in the GoT community is horrifying at times. Likewise Catelyn, if - thankfully - it died down after the Red Wedding.
tl;dr I feel like I should be surprised people are vocally upset Sansa didn't die with / before Ramsay this episode, but that commentary's getting more predictable than it should be.
Are people really
vocally upset that Sansa didn't die? I mean she got a lot of hate in the books but I thought it'd died down by now.

And it only gets more alarming / bizarre when the acts that made [community member] think it pertinent to share their murder-fantasies involving either are duplicated by other characters that... they openly share missing / saying have an undeserved infamy?

Hm? This is a bit hard to follow.
 
Boy I hope my pet theory of Sansa ending up Queen pans out then

The outrage will be amazing to behold
Very, very much agreed.

Jon survived all that for one reason and it's the same as why Arya survived her wounds last episode despite people twice her size and muscle dying from far less. Why dany (from the first episode), Tyrion, Tourmend, Davos and Sansa were at no risk this episodefrom dying or suffering. Plot armor, the book and show has killed of so many characters by this point and have built so much up with these characters that they simply cannot die at all for some of them due to need for some good guy to still be standing by series end. Or until they reach the point where they decide they can kill them for drama and full tear effect.
Tormund and Davos were definitely not free from risk this episode: With the Wildling Army's strength spent he is no longer "necessary" for major plot points / development, likewise Davos was - multiple times - telegraphing things in this episode that normally precede a character's death. Again: I was expecting him to get shanked by one of Ramsay's Twenty Good Men while sifting through the pyre.

Likewise, since we're going into (relatively) new territory, I would not have been surprised if Dany had been less merciful towards Tyrion and imprisoned him or something. Outright killed in an episode dedicated towards the Battle of Bastards? Yes. But setting him up to be executed later on would not have been particularly surprising with only a single season left and the situation in the city at the time.

Are people really
vocally upset that Sansa didn't die? I mean she got a lot of hate in the books but I thought it'd died down by now.
Yes. It, at least to me, seems to have even grown in intensity with this season. I have two suspicions as to why, one GoT series development-related and one actor-related, but people have been getting increasingly "Fuck Sansa" / "Waiting for the Witch to die" recently. Not on SV, thankfully, but SV's far from the only place to talk about GoT.

Hm? This is a bit hard to follow.
When other characters do the same things as Sansa that we're supposed to "HATE HATE HATE! STUPID GIRL!" her over (some of these things when she was quite literally still a child in-series and a barely-teen actor), the "HATE HATE HATE! STUPID OLD MAN!" and such is oddly absent. More oddly, there's instead "Hey! Give them a break! They're only (EDIT: [excuse])" followed by "[character] really has an undeserved bad reputation and is more nuanced than people want to give them credit".
 
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Jon for the second half of this damn episode:

Okay memes aside
I like how Jon's planned tactic was to basically to pull a Cannae on Ramsay. I thought that would have been clever. But instead it happens to him, lol.

Also that battled played out surprisingly like a battle in Mount and Blade, minus the part where Jon runs around dodging knights as he looks for a spare horse. :V
 
Man, they really went easy on Ramsay. I mean like... Jon makes a point of saying "well his men will be demoralised when they hear that he turned down the duel". And nothing happens. Ramsay shoots his hostage right in front of his brother for the lulz. And nothing happens. Ramsay orders multiple volleys fired into his own men who outnumbered Jon's forces so statistically speaking he was doing more damage to his own forces than he was to Jon's. And nothing happens. A fucking giant batters down the front door of Winterfell ready to have Hulkamania run wild all over Ramsay's butthole and still those Freys and Boltons who Jon judged as 'unwilling to fight' keep fighting to the death for their complete asshole of a commander? And throughout all of the tide turning, Ramsay looks vaguely annoyed instead of showing any measure of real worry. He just has to get in one more puppykick with the kill-steal on Wun-Wun and he has to go ahead and be fucking pithy about the single-combat thing. And even as Jon goes to town on him like John Hartigan on the Yellow Bastard he reacts more like he's getting a massage while drunk. He had those goofy shrieks while the dogs ate him I guess but too little too late.

I mean like... was it too much to ask for Ramsay to show even a thimbleful of human emotional range when faced with completely fucking up, losing everything and dying? It's hard to feel catharsis for the punishment of a long-running villain when he doesn't seem to give a shit for most of it.
inb4 infracted for talking about Ramsay suffering more because muh fee-fees
Also what the fuck kind of reverse-aimbot EX-ranked Protection From Arrows bullshit was Jon mainlining!? By my count Ramsay ordered six volleys on Jon's position and he didn't get so much as winged by any of them! It's like he anally consumed a giant magnet that made all the arrowheads just skate off!

Ramsay Bolton confirmed for Gilgamesh tier Charisma I guess?
 
I really like the battle choreography and visually it was the best the show has done, possibly even the best anyone has done. That cavalry charge ending in a crash was fwoar

But holy shit the writing was so stupid

I'm at best ambivalent about this episode. It was awesome but stupid as well. I guess it's like the rest of the season tbh.
 
I really like the battle choreography and visually it was the best the show has done, possibly even the best anyone has done. That cavalry charge ending in a crash was fwoar

But holy shit the writing was so stupid

I'm at best ambivalent about this episode. It was awesome but stupid as well. I guess it's like the rest of the season tbh.

Exactly my own view.
 
Even human monsters are human in some way.
Yeah in real life, but this is fiction, you aren't bound by the realities of the human condition. If you're willing to accept dragons, magic snow zombies, and all the rest why are you getting hung up on Ramsey being a complete monster?
 
It's precisely because of the unreal elements that I feel the real (i.e. human) elements should be more grounded. We already have supernatural evil in this story.
 
Yeah in real life, but this is fiction, you aren't bound by the realities of the human condition. If you're willing to accept dragons, magic snow zombies, and all the rest why are you getting hung up on Ramsey being a complete monster?
Because Dragons, magic snow zombies and all the rest are actually entertaining. Ramsay being just a one note complete monster is just boring.
 
Quite liked the episode altogether - the big clusterfuck battle scene was appropriately harrowing and chaotic, with several crowd-pleasing moments (predictable and rather meh Vale Calvary notwithstanding). Perhaps my favorite moment being Jon nearly getting trampled and suffocating under the dead and living alike. Powerful imagery.

I wish Sansa's advice actually amounted to more than trying to hype up Ramsay - and she didn't mention the Vale Knights...why? There's absolutely no reason not to at this point. Despite that, I am enjoying this colder Sansa who is savvy enough to know that Rickon is dead no matter what and is wholly focused on winning the fight. Watching her icily take revenge on Ramsay was, in its own way, like seeing a flash of Lady Stoneheart in the series.

Jon made a horribly foolish decision, but to the credit of the show runners they've been making it clear his judgement is compromised since the Pink Letter set his rage-meter to eleven. And in this case, I was actually entertained and enthralled by Ramsay's cruelty rather than merely bored by it - and as a result I felt the same rush of emotion Jon did. Watching him devolve into a berserker animal was equal parts awesome and disturbing, much like when he finally got his hands on Ramsay, caked in blood and mud and roaring like a wounded beast.

Despite complaints of being a villain sue, Ramsay actually isn't as good as he thinks he is. He kills his own men with crossfire, bails when things get rough, and kills his only bargaining chip for giggles. What irks me though is that we don't see any of his men deserting like Jon accurately believed, which would go a long way towards mending some ill feelings about Super Ramsay.

Mereen's plot resolved smoothly, got some badass dragon action and Tyrion at his best: in a position of power, acting for a higher authority. My only question is why it took a full night before they decided to use the dragons and fight back, but seeing the dragons in sunlight may've just been more visually entertaining. Not sure how Tyrion knew about Jamie's story, maybe he inferred from the wildfire caches he found prior to Blackwater or Jamie told him after returning with Brienne. Makes sense either way, really, and I'm glad someone is calling Dany out for her ITG-esque mentality of repaying savagery with escalating savagery after Season 4 and 5 were spent deconstructing it.

I could ship Yara and Dany. Girl power, heck yeah. Also I was torn between being sympathetic and amused at Tyrion smugly poking at Theon, though Dany for the first time in a long while actually reminded us of her true mission statement and why we liked her in the first place. No speeches about taking what is hers or tearing down castles, just an affirmation that they're going to leave the world a better place than they left it. Good to have you back, Dragon Queen.

Apart from some of the above complaints, my only real problems are preexisting things. Ramsay didn't have much of a villainous breakdown until nearly the end (and even then it was very subdued), he never really got proper credible build-up as a threat beyond the show handing him advantages, and the Northern Conspiracy plotline doesn't exist in the show. Honestly if Roose was the one still in charge (or was indeed killed by Bolton enemies to hamstring them) then we'd be talking a different game.

All in all, damn fine episode. Not perfect, not quite amazing or even Eru well-written, but an enjoyable bit of television.
 
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