Full Steam Ahead: A Train Designer Quest
- Thread starter Zeroth Jupi
- Start date
- Original Mature
Zeroth Jupi
Sporadic Writer and Haver of Ideas
- Location
- Somewhere
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Alright everyone I am back and closing the vote for this round with 1/2 inch thickness, horizontal boiler orientation, and a single reversed tube winning. I apologize for the wait and will be working hard to get a post out in the coming week
0-6
Zeroth Jupi
Sporadic Writer and Haver of Ideas
- Location
- Somewhere
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
You're starting to wonder why you had this terrible idea to run your own company and design your own locomotives. Surely you were not thinking clearly as the chaos continued past designing the frames into the boilers. The only blessing being that at least it was near unanimous in erring on the side of caution with the thickness of the boiler walls. Half-an-inch thick walls, no more, no less. It would make the boiler fairly heavy but the predicted safety benefits were considered more than worth this detriment. Everyone was quite chuffed for quite a few moments on this level of agreement before it was decided that harmony was for uncivilized people and arguments erupted once again.
Vaul and Lileath grant you strength as the arguments shifted into boiler orientation. Everyone had an opinion on this, with Miss Silvers firmly supporting a vertical orientation due to her belief the ease of manufacturing would be worth the projected performance. Given that there were working examples of such boilers, her point was indeed valid, but the same could be said about mister Lane and his opinion that the loss in the heating surface was unacceptable just to make up for manufacturing ease. In the end, the bickering was halted by Sutter's support for the horizontal style adding that the environment Der Adler would be tested in favored neither orientation, and should Adler sell as a product another locomotive could be produced testing the vertical orientation. This proved enough to soothe the bickering and sketches were drawn incorporating the boiler orientation. All that was left was the tubing… May Isha grant you mercy…
And grant you some she did, as there was a loud but thankfully brief discussion on the tubing, with a reverse flow stumbled upon soon after the orientation was decided by Baker of all folks, he having done a bit of work while trying to smoke kippers on the factory floor. The setup was heavier still, but offered superior performance over the single straight through setup you were initially looking at, so it was selected for use.
Finally, your team had a boiler orientation and thickness, a firebox, a fire tube, and a plan for a frame. Now came the next round of debates on how to actually build the frame and how to turn steam into the power needed to move into the future.
Wheel arrangement
[] 0-4-0
[] 0-2-2
[] 2-2-0
[] 2-2-2
Cylinder Size
[] More Bore
[] More Stroke
[] Square
Cylinder location (only choose if 0-2-2 is not taken)
[] Inside
[] Outside
Well Hori and I kinda rushed this one a bit as an apology from me for taking an unplanned mental health week, granted it's another short one but the point remains also this round is now uncharted territory for Lilith and Co. so no Pro and Cons at the start for these options. Voting will remain open until 3:00 PM CST on January 22 and now onto Hori once again with his lovely train facts!
The first section of dedicated higher-speed passenger rail was celebrated with a Golden Clip Ceremony in Cocoa Florida on January 12, 2023 when the line from Cocoa to Orlando International Airport was connected for the first time
Thank you once again Hori for all that you do!
Vaul and Lileath grant you strength as the arguments shifted into boiler orientation. Everyone had an opinion on this, with Miss Silvers firmly supporting a vertical orientation due to her belief the ease of manufacturing would be worth the projected performance. Given that there were working examples of such boilers, her point was indeed valid, but the same could be said about mister Lane and his opinion that the loss in the heating surface was unacceptable just to make up for manufacturing ease. In the end, the bickering was halted by Sutter's support for the horizontal style adding that the environment Der Adler would be tested in favored neither orientation, and should Adler sell as a product another locomotive could be produced testing the vertical orientation. This proved enough to soothe the bickering and sketches were drawn incorporating the boiler orientation. All that was left was the tubing… May Isha grant you mercy…
And grant you some she did, as there was a loud but thankfully brief discussion on the tubing, with a reverse flow stumbled upon soon after the orientation was decided by Baker of all folks, he having done a bit of work while trying to smoke kippers on the factory floor. The setup was heavier still, but offered superior performance over the single straight through setup you were initially looking at, so it was selected for use.
Finally, your team had a boiler orientation and thickness, a firebox, a fire tube, and a plan for a frame. Now came the next round of debates on how to actually build the frame and how to turn steam into the power needed to move into the future.
Wheel arrangement
[] 0-4-0
[] 0-2-2
[] 2-2-0
[] 2-2-2
Cylinder Size
[] More Bore
[] More Stroke
[] Square
Cylinder location (only choose if 0-2-2 is not taken)
[] Inside
[] Outside
Well Hori and I kinda rushed this one a bit as an apology from me for taking an unplanned mental health week, granted it's another short one but the point remains also this round is now uncharted territory for Lilith and Co. so no Pro and Cons at the start for these options. Voting will remain open until 3:00 PM CST on January 22 and now onto Hori once again with his lovely train facts!
The first section of dedicated higher-speed passenger rail was celebrated with a Golden Clip Ceremony in Cocoa Florida on January 12, 2023 when the line from Cocoa to Orlando International Airport was connected for the first time
Thank you once again Hori for all that you do!
[X] 2-2-2
[X] More Stroke
[X] Outside
three wheels of equal size seems really a safe bet for the first time
stability and ease of part supply/manufacturing too
I don't know about type of cylinder so any suggestions there would be good I'm just putting a place holder currently
outside seems good for ease of maintenance
[X] More Stroke
[X] Outside
three wheels of equal size seems really a safe bet for the first time
stability and ease of part supply/manufacturing too
I don't know about type of cylinder so any suggestions there would be good I'm just putting a place holder currently
outside seems good for ease of maintenance
- Location
- PA
[X] 2-2-2
[X] More Stroke
[X] Outside
This does strike a nice balance. The 2-2-2 setup makes my OCD purr
[X] More Stroke
[X] Outside
This does strike a nice balance. The 2-2-2 setup makes my OCD purr
Zeroth Jupi
Sporadic Writer and Haver of Ideas
- Location
- Somewhere
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Some examples of the layouts, also to help clarify what the numbers are they denote the total number of wheels in a configuration of leading wheels - driving wheels- trailing wheels
0-2-2 is also an excellent example of an outside cylinder but not the only type of such
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SeismicGuide
The Quakiest of Quakebotes
- Location
- A usually Warm, Southern state of the US
[X] 2-2-2
[X] More Stroke
[X] Outside
[X] More Stroke
[X] Outside
- Pronouns
- He
[X] 2-2-2
[X] More Stroke
[X] Outside
[X] More Stroke
[X] Outside
[X] 2-2-2
[X] More Stroke
[X] Outside
[X] More Stroke
[X] Outside
And neither would the designers beyond the mechanical fundamentals, or so says I. But I can give you a quick overview on a few things:
Bore is how round the cylinders are
Stroke is how long they are
Inside vs Outside cylinders is less complex: Inside the frame or outside the frame
The orientation angle doesn't matter because of reasons we shall explain next time
For wheel arrangement, I recommend the Whyte Notation wiki page
Bore is how round the cylinders are
Stroke is how long they are
Inside vs Outside cylinders is less complex: Inside the frame or outside the frame
The orientation angle doesn't matter because of reasons we shall explain next time
For wheel arrangement, I recommend the Whyte Notation wiki page
- Location
- Perth, Western Australia
[X] 2-2-2
[X] More Stroke
[X] Outside
Going along with 2-2-2 because frankly it looks nicer and sounds more stable and reliable. Stroke because laying flat we have the room for that I think anyway. (Thank you h0riz0n45 for the explanation, I had no idea what stroke or bore there was!) and Outside because it sounds easier for maintenance, repair and safety issues.
[X] More Stroke
[X] Outside
Going along with 2-2-2 because frankly it looks nicer and sounds more stable and reliable. Stroke because laying flat we have the room for that I think anyway. (Thank you h0riz0n45 for the explanation, I had no idea what stroke or bore there was!) and Outside because it sounds easier for maintenance, repair and safety issues.
[X] 2-2-2
[X] More Stroke
[X] Outside
[X] More Stroke
[X] Outside
UbeOne
Daydreaming CPU
- Location
- Philippines
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Now I've done some googling on things, so hopefully my understanding for each vote I choose lines up well.
[X] 2-2-2
2 leading wheels to safely guide the train through turns. 2 drive wheels to transfer the steam power to the rails. 2 trailing wheels to support the locomotive and safely accommodate a larger firebox for higher performance. Looks good and well-balanced to me.
[X] More Stroke
As far as I can tell, an undersquare engine (more bore) lends itself to higher RPMs and power without excessive piston speed, but it's less efficient (less fuel economy) and could get you higher emissions. An oversquare engine (more stroke), meanwhile, is more efficient and gives more torque for pulling stuff, but it can wear out the pistons and crankshaft more quickly due to increased friction, stress, and piston acceleration. A square engine (equal bore and stroke) would just be in the middle.
I'm gonna favor fuel economy for this one to save on time and coal costs, lasting longer between refueling stops. Having more torque at lower RPM for pulling heavy loads is great too.
[X] Outside
From what I read, inside cylinders make the locomotive more compact and stable, but are harder to access for maintenance. Outside cylinders meanwhile make life easier for mechanics/technicians who have to maintain them. I'm gonna go with the latter so that maintenance is less of an issue, allowing our trains to be serviced more quickly and easily. They're gonna need it in light of going for oversquare engines.
[X] 2-2-2
2 leading wheels to safely guide the train through turns. 2 drive wheels to transfer the steam power to the rails. 2 trailing wheels to support the locomotive and safely accommodate a larger firebox for higher performance. Looks good and well-balanced to me.
[X] More Stroke
As far as I can tell, an undersquare engine (more bore) lends itself to higher RPMs and power without excessive piston speed, but it's less efficient (less fuel economy) and could get you higher emissions. An oversquare engine (more stroke), meanwhile, is more efficient and gives more torque for pulling stuff, but it can wear out the pistons and crankshaft more quickly due to increased friction, stress, and piston acceleration. A square engine (equal bore and stroke) would just be in the middle.
I'm gonna favor fuel economy for this one to save on time and coal costs, lasting longer between refueling stops. Having more torque at lower RPM for pulling heavy loads is great too.
[X] Outside
From what I read, inside cylinders make the locomotive more compact and stable, but are harder to access for maintenance. Outside cylinders meanwhile make life easier for mechanics/technicians who have to maintain them. I'm gonna go with the latter so that maintenance is less of an issue, allowing our trains to be serviced more quickly and easily. They're gonna need it in light of going for oversquare engines.
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HolyDragoon
Call Gespenst!
- Location
- Portugal
[X] 2-2-2
[X] More Stroke
[X] Outside
Might as well go for efficient and simple usage-wise.
[X] More Stroke
[X] Outside
Might as well go for efficient and simple usage-wise.
[X] 2-2-2
[X] More Stroke
[X] Outside
[X] More Stroke
[X] Outside
- Location
- Fort Worth, TX
[X] 2-2-2
[X] More Stroke
[X] Outside
[X] More Stroke
[X] Outside
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] 2-2-2
[X] More Stroke
[X] Outside
[X] More Stroke
[X] Outside
So I'm a total neophyte on a good day with steam engines but for some reason the 0-4-0 system looks like it would match well for a short ranged vertical boiler desgin to me.
Think moving stuff around a large work sight or a small city.
Think moving stuff around a large work sight or a small city.
Zeroth Jupi
Sporadic Writer and Haver of Ideas
- Location
- Somewhere
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
You have in fact hit upon the main uses of such a design though short ranged would be a relative term as they'd have made about equal range as a horizontal design give or take inefficiencies and other factors
0-7
Zeroth Jupi
Sporadic Writer and Haver of Ideas
- Location
- Somewhere
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
The Gods be praised! For once there was a proper debate between your employees instead of the rowdy arguments that at least once broke out into violence, you would never be able to look at an armrested chair again after Ms. Silvers used one against Mr. Lane. Phobias of chairs aside you made great progress on the prototype as the decision was made on the cylinder design and an emphasis was placed on producing more strokes at the cost of material strength over time. There was a bit of fuss making this work but with Mr. Baker's help obtaining higher quality iron for the connecting rods and time spent perfecting the design you were sure that it would balance out in the long term.
Next, you had to deal with the placement of the cylinders and again wonders would never cease as the debate stayed heated but nonviolent. Miss Silver suggested placing them inside the frame so that they'd not be easily seen and add to the looks of Der Adler, but Mr. Sutter would point out that such a measure would be infeasible currently with the level of engine technology. As it was you had to make do with half-lever engines you had managed to poach before they could be sold for marine use in the Dread Lakes. They were powerful and reliable for what they were at least.
Deciding on a wheel arrangement though was when the harmonious truce was broken as a four-front war was unleashed as each of your employees had a different suggestion that they almost refused to budge on it went a little something like this. Four fronts and four arrangements all based on speculation on what they'd achieve.
The ever-elegant Ms. Silvers started things off. "I'd like to advocate for a relatively simple wheel layout of a four-coupled wheeled arrangement with four wheels acting as driving wheels based on simplicity and power, it should be the most effective way to get a functional locomotive." Of course Mr. Lane had to pipe in at that.
"Nay lass we be wanting something that can handle tae curves from tae nearby mountains, so what nae use a layout with two leading wheels and two drivers." Ms. Silvers scoffed at this but otherwise said nothing. The same could not be said of Mr. Baker.
"I advocate for a similar arrangement as Mr. Lane but switching the order to two driving wheels and two trailing wheels that should in theory allow for better weight distribution and adhesive grip and in my humble opinion look quite unique." This drew Ms. Silvers and Mr. Lane out of their heated arguments with a new target for their ire.
Finally, there was Mr. Sutter who went above and beyond in his advocacy for an arrangement of two leading wheels, two driving, and two trailing by drawing up detailed schematics that incorporated everything done so far for Der Adler and presenting them to you while the others were again brawling. Seeing as no one had bothered to draw up plans for their own layouts, instead continuing their feuds, the 2-2-2 arrangement was chosen, with a larger center-mounted driving wheelset and a pair of smaller wheels on either side of the drivers. This had the added benefit of splitting the not-inconsiderable weight over three axles instead of two.
Fuel Location
[] Tender
- advantages: More capacity
- disadvantages: Makes locomotive longer, additional weight
[] On the footplate
- advantages: no additional length
- disadvantages: less fuel, not enough weight for additional adhesion weight
Water Location
[] Tender
- advantages: More capacity
- disadvantages: Makes locomotive longer, additional weight
[] Side Tanks
- advantages: more adhesion weight
- disadvantages: impedes visibility if built too high
[] Well Tanks
- advantages: more adhesion weight
- disadvantages: take up space
[] Inverted Saddle Tanks
- advantages: more adhesion weight
- disadvantages: can place boiler too high
Fuel Type
[] Lignite
- advantages: cheap
- disadvantages: burns sooty
[] Coke
- advantages: burns with less leftover material
- disadvantages: expensive, sometimes required to burn
[] Cordwood
- advantages: easily obtainable
- disadvantages: requires additional prep work
And here we are once again ironically this one fought Hori and me more than some of our longer posts, go figure, I apologize for the wait and hope y'all still will bear with us as we have two more phases to go. And now here is Hori with the train fact.
Train Fact: The Pennsylvania Railroad E44 electric locomotives used a PCB based coolant in their electric transformers, leading to their withdrawal in the mid 1990's after working as switchers for several years.
Thank you Hori once again. Voting will be open until 5:00 PM CST on Monday February 13th!
Next, you had to deal with the placement of the cylinders and again wonders would never cease as the debate stayed heated but nonviolent. Miss Silver suggested placing them inside the frame so that they'd not be easily seen and add to the looks of Der Adler, but Mr. Sutter would point out that such a measure would be infeasible currently with the level of engine technology. As it was you had to make do with half-lever engines you had managed to poach before they could be sold for marine use in the Dread Lakes. They were powerful and reliable for what they were at least.
Deciding on a wheel arrangement though was when the harmonious truce was broken as a four-front war was unleashed as each of your employees had a different suggestion that they almost refused to budge on it went a little something like this. Four fronts and four arrangements all based on speculation on what they'd achieve.
The ever-elegant Ms. Silvers started things off. "I'd like to advocate for a relatively simple wheel layout of a four-coupled wheeled arrangement with four wheels acting as driving wheels based on simplicity and power, it should be the most effective way to get a functional locomotive." Of course Mr. Lane had to pipe in at that.
"Nay lass we be wanting something that can handle tae curves from tae nearby mountains, so what nae use a layout with two leading wheels and two drivers." Ms. Silvers scoffed at this but otherwise said nothing. The same could not be said of Mr. Baker.
"I advocate for a similar arrangement as Mr. Lane but switching the order to two driving wheels and two trailing wheels that should in theory allow for better weight distribution and adhesive grip and in my humble opinion look quite unique." This drew Ms. Silvers and Mr. Lane out of their heated arguments with a new target for their ire.
Finally, there was Mr. Sutter who went above and beyond in his advocacy for an arrangement of two leading wheels, two driving, and two trailing by drawing up detailed schematics that incorporated everything done so far for Der Adler and presenting them to you while the others were again brawling. Seeing as no one had bothered to draw up plans for their own layouts, instead continuing their feuds, the 2-2-2 arrangement was chosen, with a larger center-mounted driving wheelset and a pair of smaller wheels on either side of the drivers. This had the added benefit of splitting the not-inconsiderable weight over three axles instead of two.
Fuel Location
[] Tender
- advantages: More capacity
- disadvantages: Makes locomotive longer, additional weight
[] On the footplate
- advantages: no additional length
- disadvantages: less fuel, not enough weight for additional adhesion weight
Water Location
[] Tender
- advantages: More capacity
- disadvantages: Makes locomotive longer, additional weight
[] Side Tanks
- advantages: more adhesion weight
- disadvantages: impedes visibility if built too high
[] Well Tanks
- advantages: more adhesion weight
- disadvantages: take up space
[] Inverted Saddle Tanks
- advantages: more adhesion weight
- disadvantages: can place boiler too high
Fuel Type
[] Lignite
- advantages: cheap
- disadvantages: burns sooty
[] Coke
- advantages: burns with less leftover material
- disadvantages: expensive, sometimes required to burn
[] Cordwood
- advantages: easily obtainable
- disadvantages: requires additional prep work
And here we are once again ironically this one fought Hori and me more than some of our longer posts, go figure, I apologize for the wait and hope y'all still will bear with us as we have two more phases to go. And now here is Hori with the train fact.
Train Fact: The Pennsylvania Railroad E44 electric locomotives used a PCB based coolant in their electric transformers, leading to their withdrawal in the mid 1990's after working as switchers for several years.
Thank you Hori once again. Voting will be open until 5:00 PM CST on Monday February 13th!
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So I don't think we want to use lignite, that stuff is harmful as hell with the only major upside being how cheap it is.
I don't know enough about those different water storage locations to know about upsides and downsides but I don't think we should add another tender if we put the fuel in a tender as that would make things way more complex for moving stuff around.
I don't know enough about those different water storage locations to know about upsides and downsides but I don't think we should add another tender if we put the fuel in a tender as that would make things way more complex for moving stuff around.