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Fire Emblem General

The future can be changed, so glad to finally get the opportunity to stand with the greatest of heroes Lord Lonato instead of having to kill him, and Byleth's rad loved fighting her she's a real monster even with Shez seeming wildly overleveled for the rest of the level she still dragged my S Rank from me definitely looking forward to that again.

I kinda wish the classes didn't level up so fast cause it feels like then I have to put the characters into classes that they shouldn't be just to not waste the exp but that's just a general modern Fire Emblem thing not really this games fault I wish they could just be the one class and level more slowly instead of everyone having to be able to be everything
 
Jelleton said:
IIRC they did get taken to court over it by Nintendo but Ninty did not win
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That was because Tearring Saga was originally titled Emblem Saga, and would have explicitly been canon to Fire Emblem (which at the time was a single continuity consisting of all the games made at that point).

But then the lawsuit happened after Kaga decided to change some elements of the game, which ironically was an attempt to avoid a lawsuit.
 
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going through Fire Emblem Echoes for the first time (albeit with much of it already spoiled) and OOF it is painful to watch Rinea go through multiple critical fails talking to Berkut.
 
Shebe Zuu said:
I've never actually played a Warriors game and never felt much desire to do so outside of this one case but I suppose you never know if you'll like something until you try.
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I would suggest trying out the demo to get a feel for the gameplay, it's pretty extensive.
Badwolfwho said:
The future can be changed, so glad to finally get the opportunity to stand with the greatest of heroes Lord Lonato instead of having to kill him, and Byleth's rad loved fighting her she's a real monster even with Shez seeming wildly overleveled for the rest of the level she still dragged my S Rank from me definitely looking forward to that again.

I kinda wish the classes didn't level up so fast cause it feels like then I have to put the characters into classes that they shouldn't be just to not waste the exp but that's just a general modern Fire Emblem thing not really this games fault I wish they could just be the one class and level more slowly instead of everyone having to be able to be everything
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Personally I kinda like it sense it incentivizes you to try out different combinations of character + class. In the chapter main battles I have been selecting character classes even if they're mastered though.
 
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Does anyone know how much of a renown bonus you get for only capturing the necessary regions before competing a chapter?
 
Man I'm having a hard time personally rating Echoes story in comparison to the other games in the series I've played or watched. Better than Fates, not as personally enjoyable as 3H, but comparing it to Awakening is the hard part for me.

Alm's story I think is, on its own, better than the story in Awakening. However, that's not really where it ends. I feel like Celica is more underwritten than Alm, which causes an issue when half of the story is about her. It feels like she kind of remains static with her only change being taking up the mantle of princess but that honestly doesn't get enough build up to feel that natural. Ironically Alm is faced with the responsibilities of leadership more often than Celica, whose own adventure feels more like a band of adventurers following Celica's whims without any real friction between ideals. The whole sacrifice thing feels stupid because we all KNOW that Falchion isn't actually sealed and maybe that's a bad reason but come on we know that she's being played by purple guy. They also don't use Mathilda in the main story which I feel is a missed opportunity to have a female character who isn't portrayed as a ditz in Alm's story.

Also at the end it just kind of felt like... trauma porn towards Alm. Like part of it gets undone but still it felt a little silly around Berkut while knowing that Celica was also gonna happen.

I'm not saying that Awakening is a pinnacle of story telling but it did feel like it hit the story it was trying to tell a little bit better than Echoes.
 
Jelleton said:
Man I'm having a hard time personally rating Echoes story in comparison to the other games in the series I've played or watched. Better than Fates, not as personally enjoyable as 3H, but comparing it to Awakening is the hard part for me.

Alm's story I think is, on its own, better than the story in Awakening. However, that's not really where it ends. I feel like Celica is more underwritten than Alm, which causes an issue when half of the story is about her. It feels like she kind of remains static with her only change being taking up the mantle of princess but that honestly doesn't get enough build up to feel that natural. Ironically Alm is faced with the responsibilities of leadership more often than Celica, whose own adventure feels more like a band of adventurers following Celica's whims without any real friction between ideals. The whole sacrifice thing feels stupid because we all KNOW that Falchion isn't actually sealed and maybe that's a bad reason but come on we know that she's being played by purple guy. They also don't use Mathilda in the main story which I feel is a missed opportunity to have a female character who isn't portrayed as a ditz in Alm's story.

Also at the end it just kind of felt like... trauma porn towards Alm. Like part of it gets undone but still it felt a little silly around Berkut while knowing that Celica was also gonna happen.

I'm not saying that Awakening is a pinnacle of story telling but it did feel like it hit the story it was trying to tell a little bit better than Echoes.
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Can you expand a bit on what you don't like about Celica's story for someone who hasn't played Echoes?
 
Apotheosis said:
Can you expand a bit on what you don't like about Celica's story for someone who hasn't played Echoes?
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It's... kind of hard to? but I'll try

Alm's story revolves around him stepping up as the leader of the deliverance (Zofian rebels after the prime minister killed the king in a power grab, and eventually going into Rigel to try and stop their attacks into Zofia) due to his status as Mycen's grandson. There is an underlying friction as Alm is (assumed) a peasant without any noble blood. Alm has good banter with his squadmates (Clive and Lukas in particular) and with his main enemies (Berkut and Fernand). While certain parts of the ending could be better (in particular the reveal he was a noble all along), I do think the resolve Alm goes through makes sense and brings his character to a satisfying close.

Celica's story on the other hand feels like she just sticks to her guns and doesn't actually grow that much. She's self-sacrificing and doesn't want people to suffer, but it's paired with a stubbornness and a kind of naivety that makes her seem a little bit immature compared to Alm. When she meets Alm she argues with him about his decision to go to (fire emblem) war with Rigel, claiming that there must be a peaceful alternative. During said argument Alm is written as a lot more level headed than Celica with her storming off when Alm talks about how the former king was at fault for this situation. It doesn't help that the party lacks any of the friction that the deliverance has, every party member except one or two guys is kind of an asskisser in her story. I don't think anyone actually directly challenges her ideals in the entire story. This is made worse because her "major" story beat is accepting her place as princess of Zofia without any real character buildup to make it feel like she's earned that place as a character. In terms of impact to the story she really isn't one of two protagonists, she's really more of a secondary character who just happens to have her own viewpoint story.

None of this is helped with the "true love at first sight" relationship Alm and Celica have.

Also this is further compounded by the supports in this game being kind of ass. They barely give extra depth to the characters.
 
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Jelleton said:
It's... kind of hard to? but I'll try

Alm's story revolves around him stepping up as the leader of the deliverance (Zofian rebels after the prime minister killed the king in a power grab, and eventually going into Rigel to try and stop their attacks into Zofia) due to his status as Mycen's grandson. There is an underlying friction as Alm is (assumed) a peasant without any noble blood. Alm has good banter with his squadmates (Clive and Lukas in particular) and with his main enemies (Berkut and Fernand). While certain parts of the ending could be better (in particular the reveal he was a noble all along), I do think the resolve Alm goes through makes sense and brings his character to a satisfying close.

Celica's story on the other hand feels like she just sticks to her guns and doesn't actually grow that much. She's self-sacrificing and doesn't want people to suffer, but it's paired with a stubbornness and a kind of naivety that makes her seem a little bit immature compared to Alm. When she meets Alm she argues with him about his decision to go to (fire emblem) war with Rigel, claiming that there must be a peaceful alternative. During said argument Alm is written as a lot more level headed than Celica with her storming off when Alm talks about how the former king was at fault for this situation. It doesn't help that the party lacks any of the friction that the deliverance has, every party member except one or two guys is kind of an asskisser in her story. I don't think anyone actually directly challenges her ideals in the entire story. This is made worse because her "major" story beat is accepting her place as princess of Zofia without any real character buildup to make it feel like she's earned that place as a character. In terms of impact to the story she really isn't one of two protagonists, she's really more of a secondary character who just happens to have her own viewpoint story.

None of this is helped with the "true love at first sight" relationship Alm and Celica have.

Also this is further compounded by the supports in this game being kind of ass. They barely give extra depth to the characters.
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Ah I see. So Celica doesn't really go through much in the way of character development and doesn't have as good party chemistry as Alm.

Huttj said:
Looks like it's 2 renown per mission skipped. So not much.
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Okay, that's good to know. Now I won't feel bad for doing all the side quests since the rewards for that seem to significantly outweigh the potential renown.
 
Grue said:
This the plot mentioning it's not sealed, or because Echoes takes place near enough to the timeframe of the OG Fire Emblems? I haven't played Echoes.
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The plot does not mention it, which is why I give the caveat of that perhaps being an unfair criticism. But at the same time she is taking the word of an evil purple man and no one has actually tried lifting the sword or using it yet. Also to be clear THIS falchion is not the falchion in Awakening and the original Fire Emblem, it has the same origin except this one was given to the dragons that went to Valentia by Naga.
 
The main problems with Shadows of Valentia's plot, though not the sole ones, are faithfulness to the original gaiden.

eg the ending has Duma (and Mila) randomly whip out this 'DO NOT MAKE OUR MISTAKES CHILDREN' thing, which is right there in the original gaiden and makes absolutely no sense either way. What mistakes is Duma talking about? He doesn't say, and while the story sorta tries overarchingly to do a mirror darkly thing it... doesn't really make sense?

Like, Duma and Mila are siblings, not love interests. We don't hear about any actual mistakes, they just kinda go Dragon Madness and that's why they have their relationship break down. It's not normal human fightiness. It also happens over literally several human generations in a way Alm and Celica can't possibly experience. Alm and Celica's conflicts come from things like secret keeping, and we never hear about Duma and Mila having kept secrets from each other.

There's details modified here and there, of course, but other than Berkut/Fernand/Rinea there's like, no new characters. In fact, arguably shadows of Valentia has fewer characters since the Gaiden had Gharnef (yes, really) show up randomly at the end and he's made Some Rando in shadows of valentia.

One might note from this that, yeah, Alm got more done for his story. Everything Celica has in terms of characters and so on is already there. Which, given both were a bit barebones, hurts.
 
Echoes is the definition of a flawed remake that manages to mostly cover up its issues through the magic of Raw Presentation, really. The story isn't particually well adapted from the original Gaiden in several places, like adding extra instances of Celica spontaneously going "damn guess I better sacrifice myself to Duma" and in particular, messing with how her deal with Purple Totes Not Evil Priest worked in the original. In Gaiden, she agrees to be sacrificed because Alm and company are stuck in Draco Zombie Valley, as in actually stuck; Alm's party can't leave that area on the world map and every few turns you have to deal with fighting off another wave if them, so Celica is making her sacrifice as a deal to save Alm's life. In Echoes, she gets told "oh hey Mila corrupted" and just kinda... believes the creepy priest man on the spot.

Then on the gameplay side of things, well... honestly the basic gameplay adding weapon mastery skills and the like is an improvement, but Echoes is just a bit too faithful to Gaiden in terms of map design, which is a problem because Gaiden has a lot of really bad map design. There's multiple levels that are just massive open fields of slamming units together, there's floor tiles giving massive dodge boosts for no explicable reason, there's... basically everything on Celica's side of the map from Chapter 3 and 4 in the form of deserts and poison swamps. Unfortunately, being faithful to Gaiden's map design just doesn't work out as well as say, Shadow Dragon or Mystery of the Emblem which usually had better designed maps which translated well to their respective remakes.

Overall, Idunno 7/10 for all that it's a flawed game BOY it really does get that presentation down, first heavily voice-acted Fire Emblem game and they absolutely nailed it, I still quote Berkut's breakdown ranting about "nothing but LIES" years later.
 
Oh man I finished Scarlet Blaze chapter 7 and I am really digging this!

Shez and Byleth fight, and Shez gains the upper hand using her Arval power. She's just about to strike the killing blow when bam! Divine pulse activates and suddenly Sothis has possessed Byleth, green hair and all.

Sothis and her bullshit time powers let her easily gain the upper hand, teleporting all over the place and basically playing with Shez. She's trash talking Shez all the while and seems to take her existence as a personal affront. Only Byleth fighting back and resisting Sothis' control allows Shez to escape.

The scenes afterwards on both sides are very illuminating. Shez and Arval are once again licking their wounds and talking about the battle. Noticably Shez is very disheartened due to the perceived power gap and it's only due to Arval's pep talk that she doesn't give up. Despite her rivalry with Byleth she's not willing to throw her life away and is even open to the idea of Edelgard paying Byleth off to come over to their side. Arval is vehemently against even the idea of teaming up with the Ashen Demon and when Shez asks why they mostly evade the question and prey on her desire for revenge to convince her. They also seem to have some awareness of Byleth's connection to Sothis.

On the other side Byleth and Sothis are having their first proper meeting. Sothis berates her for preventing her from killing Shez, which someone familiar with her character from Three Houses would expect. Contrasting their meeting in that game right off the bat she seems to have much less respect for Byleth and her personhood, comparing her to a glove disobeying the hand. She also seems to have more of her memories as the mother goddess to Fodlan?

Anyway it's pretty clear both Arval and Sothis have at least some idea of the other's current existence and connection to their vessel/host. They seem hellbent on removing each other from existence as well as they can as well, to the degree that they don't stand for Shez and Byleth having some degree of mutual respect and willingness to live in peace. My guess is that Arval was a deity native to Fodlan who came into conflict with Sothis when she first arrived from elsewhere (space!), and has some connection to the Agarthans though I'm not sure whether they had a preexisting relationship or maybe teamed up against Sothis. Now even in their diminished states the two of them retain an instinctual emnity.

I'm really looking forward to seeing where this goes (but it might take a while since kind of a slow gamer :V)!

Sidenote I liked seeing Byleth and Jeralt's interactions after the battle as well. He's concerned for her but less alarmed than I would have expected at her hair and eyes suddenly changing to green. Maybe offscreen he talked to Rhea and found out more about what went down in the past?

Also it's kind funny that Byleth's plan to relax after the previous stressful events basically is to immediately go back to the battlefield and kill people. Kinda exemplifies the whole Ashen Demon thing.
 
Terrabrand said:
The main problems with Shadows of Valentia's plot, though not the sole ones, are faithfulness to the original gaiden.

eg the ending has Duma (and Mila) randomly whip out this 'DO NOT MAKE OUR MISTAKES CHILDREN' thing, which is right there in the original gaiden and makes absolutely no sense either way. What mistakes is Duma talking about? He doesn't say, and while the story sorta tries overarchingly to do a mirror darkly thing it... doesn't really make sense?

Like, Duma and Mila are siblings, not love interests. We don't hear about any actual mistakes, they just kinda go Dragon Madness and that's why they have their relationship break down. It's not normal human fightiness. It also happens over literally several human generations in a way Alm and Celica can't possibly experience. Alm and Celica's conflicts come from things like secret keeping, and we never hear about Duma and Mila having kept secrets from each other.

There's details modified here and there, of course, but other than Berkut/Fernand/Rinea there's like, no new characters. In fact, arguably shadows of Valentia has fewer characters since the Gaiden had Gharnef (yes, really) show up randomly at the end and he's made Some Rando in shadows of valentia.

One might note from this that, yeah, Alm got more done for his story. Everything Celica has in terms of characters and so on is already there. Which, given both were a bit barebones, hurts.
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Within the context of the story and what Alm and Celica do in their rule, Duma's line probably refers to the conflict he and Mila had that resulted in the splitting of the continent into the two nations which is implied by side content to be something they did while still sane.

The point about the characters is slightly incorrect, Faye and Conrad are new. Though Conrad is probably the better one to mention as he's a story character, unlike Faye.

EDIT: Also where are you getting Gharnef appearing in Gaiden? While I didn't do a ton of google-fu there's nothing that immediately points to him showing up. Are you confusing him with the enemy Gharn?
 
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Jelleton said:
Within the context of the story and what Alm and Celica do in their rule, Duma's line probably refers to the conflict he and Mila had that resulted in the splitting of the continent into the two nations which is implied by side content to be something they did while still sane.

The point about the characters is slightly incorrect, Faye and Conrad are new. Though Conrad is probably the better one to mention as he's a story character, unlike Faye.

EDIT: Also where are you getting Gharnef appearing in Gaiden? While I didn't do a ton of google-fu there's nothing that immediately points to him showing up. Are you confusing him with the enemy Gharn?
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According to eg this update of a Gaiden LP, he's right there in the final boss fight.

That's the dude I'm talking about, who, yes, isn't called Gharnef in Shadows of Valentia. That's my point. They appear to have removed him as being a returning character.
 
Having now beaten SB, I can say I like the story I guess I can do a few spoilers on my thoughts:
I got the "good" ending, but it really isn't a golden ending. Arval gets high jacked by their creator and you have to kill them. I killed a bunch of the blue lions, Rhea and Thales are probably dead (kind of doubt it but whatever) and the war is still ongoing. I actually like it, in age of Calamity the everyone lives ending made sense, here I don't think it could really be done, and I do think the game ends like a chapter to early, because as I said, the war is still ongoing but the kingdom is almost certain to lose.
 
Terrabrand said:
According to eg this update of a Gaiden LP, he's right there in the final boss fight.

That's the dude I'm talking about, who, yes, isn't called Gharnef in Shadows of Valentia. That's my point. They appear to have removed him as being a returning character.
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Uh... I don't think that's canon. Considering there is zero pomp or circumstance around his return and that the only connection to him is the name, and that this is from an LP using a fan translation, I feel like saying definitively that it is supposed to be Gharnef is a bit much.

Like I dunno maybe that is in fact supposed to be him since wacky shit happens in old games, but I can kind of see why they would remove him even if that was the case considering how unimportant his presence is to the plot.
 
Jelleton said:
Uh... I don't think that's canon. Considering there is zero pomp or circumstance around his return and that the only connection to him is the name, and that this is from an LP using a fan translation, I feel like saying definitively that it is supposed to be Gharnef is a bit much.

Like I dunno maybe that is in fact supposed to be him since wacky shit happens in old games, but I can kind of see why they would remove him even if that was the case considering how unimportant his presence is to the plot.
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Ok, checked the japanese.

In Gaiden it's 'Ganefu' in Shadow Dragon it's 'Gaanefu.'

So the fan translation can definitely be excused giving them the same name.

Given the name change, I suspect it was not supposed to be the same bloke.
 
Apotheosis said:
Oh man I finished Scarlet Blaze chapter 7 and I am really digging this!

Shez and Byleth fight, and Shez gains the upper hand using her Arval power. She's just about to strike the killing blow when bam! Divine pulse activates and suddenly Sothis has possessed Byleth, green hair and all.

Sothis and her bullshit time powers let her easily gain the upper hand, teleporting all over the place and basically playing with Shez. She's trash talking Shez all the while and seems to take her existence as a personal affront. Only Byleth fighting back and resisting Sothis' control allows Shez to escape.

The scenes afterwards on both sides are very illuminating. Shez and Arval are once again licking their wounds and talking about the battle. Noticably Shez is very disheartened due to the perceived power gap and it's only due to Arval's pep talk that she doesn't give up. Despite her rivalry with Byleth she's not willing to throw her life away and is even open to the idea of Edelgard paying Byleth off to come over to their side. Arval is vehemently against even the idea of teaming up with the Ashen Demon and when Shez asks why they mostly evade the question and prey on her desire for revenge to convince her. They also seem to have some awareness of Byleth's connection to Sothis.

On the other side Byleth and Sothis are having their first proper meeting. Sothis berates her for preventing her from killing Shez, which someone familiar with her character from Three Houses would expect. Contrasting their meeting in that game right off the bat she seems to have much less respect for Byleth and her personhood, comparing her to a glove disobeying the hand. She also seems to have more of her memories as the mother goddess to Fodlan?

Anyway it's pretty clear both Arval and Sothis have at least some idea of the other's current existence and connection to their vessel/host. They seem hellbent on removing each other from existence as well as they can as well, to the degree that they don't stand for Shez and Byleth having some degree of mutual respect and willingness to live in peace. My guess is that Arval was a deity native to Fodlan who came into conflict with Sothis when she first arrived from elsewhere (space!), and has some connection to the Agarthans though I'm not sure whether they had a preexisting relationship or maybe teamed up against Sothis. Now even in their diminished states the two of them retain an instinctual emnity.

I'm really looking forward to seeing where this goes (but it might take a while since kind of a slow gamer :V)!

Sidenote I liked seeing Byleth and Jeralt's interactions after the battle as well. He's concerned for her but less alarmed than I would have expected at her hair and eyes suddenly changing to green. Maybe offscreen he talked to Rhea and found out more about what went down in the past?

Also it's kind funny that Byleth's plan to relax after the previous stressful events basically is to immediately go back to the battlefield and kill people. Kinda exemplifies the whole Ashen Demon thing.
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I'm at Chapter 12 of Golden Wildfire, and it has pretty similar vibes for its Byleth/Shez interactions.

That said, I doubt the "Sothis is a space alien" stuff will come up. I figured her wanting you dead was basically because from her perspective, you're some random moron with a murder-grudge against her human. She doesn't seem to have any problem with you and Byleth teaming up if you drop it and stop trying to fight her

I am kind of sad there's no "Silver Blades" route, though. Imagine the cool scenes and the drama!
  • Rhea trying to figure out what the hell is up with this mysterious mercenary who is transparently an Agarthean and even more transparently has no clue what that means.
  • Being deniable black-ops assets in the Rhea-Edelgard team up to knock the Slitherers down to size
  • Actually doing something with the whole "not every Black Eagle or Golden Deer is cool with the plan to murder the Dragon Pope" thing, and recruiting the faithful from all three houses
  • Rhea taking the place of your Lord post-timeskip as she's forced to take to the battlefield in a unique manakete class.
  • The tension between Rhea relying on you more as you get stronger and stronger, but trusting you less and less because she can't figure you out and her paranoia can't accept "lol I dunno" as an answer to all her questions about you. Especially once she finds out about Arval and how he knows more than he lets on.
  • Rhea ordering you to kill Jeralt and his mercenaries, and only realizing what she's done after Jeralt is dead and Byleth/Sothis are going full Revengeance through her armies.
  • The possibility of a Rhea romance path that isn't secret magic double incest
 
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I have to admit unlike three houses where my clear favorite was the golden deer campaign, I am finding that the Blue Lion campaign is proving to be my favorite out of all the campaigns in three hopes at least so far.

I have to admit I didn't expect that.
 
I don't recall it being mentioned in either three houses and so far it hasn't been it mentioned so far in three hopes or at I haven't come across it as of yet.

My guess would be the fantasy Nazis being involved given they've to have been implied to be involved in in both the creation of the holy kingdom and the alliance and weakening and dividing the church devoted to worshiping the only being they hate more than the rest of humanity seems like it would be right up their alley.

Also, their tendency to kill and replace figures to further their own goals wouldn't make it hard for them to replace key figures to sow dissent.

Edit: Clearly one thing the descendants of the goddess apparently don't seem to be good at all is dealing with any enemies that employ underhanded tactics given how they've apparently never got wind of the fantasy Nazis being around at any point from the murder of Sothis's corporal form until the events of either game story revealed the Fantasy Nazis existence.
 
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