" The Sirim floating here is not the Sirim who swore himself to the Midnight Lord. That being was already gone before the Kuthites sent an Assassin Devil after his successor." <- Kinda reads as someone who is trying to squirrle away from responbolity.
I'm not sure of the best angle, but I do think "Could find literally no other choices/methods to escape save suicide[1]" would go over better than an argument "I'm not him"; especially considering that the method of "I'm not him" is part of how one becomes a lich, so using that to argue that this Sirim-fork is not responsible would go over badly. Current Sirim-fork is still a person who agreed to a plan to have someone to do that stuff.
[1] And that might not even have been enough to win freedom.
Also, I'm not sure if Sirim would like that argument. The fork of him that was tortured and broken into swearing those oaths, that he destroyed... that was still a Sirim.
[Also, Sirim can use Surge Points on the roll itself?]
" The Sirim floating here is not the Sirim who swore himself to the Midnight Lord. That being was already gone before the Kuthites sent an Assassin Devil after his successor." <- Kinda reads as someone who is trying to squirrle away from responbolity.
I'm not sure of the best angle, but I do think "Could find literally no other choices/methods to escape save suicide[1]" would go over better than an argument "I'm not him"; especially considering that the method of "I'm not him" is part of how one becomes a lich, so using that to argue that this Sirim-fork is not responsible would go over badly. Current Sirim-fork is still a person who agreed to a plan to have someone to do that stuff.
[1] And that might not even have been enough to win freedom.
Also, I'm not sure if Sirim would like that argument. The fork of him that was tortured and broken into swearing those oaths, that he destroyed... that was still a Sirim.
[Also, Sirim can use Surge Points on the roll itself?]
I'm leaving the house for a very boring hour, so I'll have time to ruminate on it. Currently leaning to the below this, though I want to check the god's spheres/domains first
[] Focus on his enmity to the Midnight Lord whose claiming of the Perfect Shadow is still a sore spot with the Church of Abadar even after all these many years
Edit: high level priest, so we should avoid lying/bluffing if possible.
Abadar and his followers wish to bring the light of civilization to the wilderness, to help educate all in the benefits of law and properly regulated commerce. He expects his followers to obey all meaningful laws, but not those which are ridiculous, unenforceable, or self-contradictory. He is also a great proponent of peace, as war inevitably leads to the degradation of trade and the stifling of prosperity for the general public. He advocates cautious, careful consideration in all matters, and frowns on impulsiveness, believing that it leads to the encouragement of primitive needs. Abadar discourages dependence on government or any religious institution, believing that wealth and happiness should be achievable by anyone with keen judgement, discipline, and a healthy respect for all sensible, just laws.6
I think there might be value in "did what was needed to escape a place filled with unjust laws. Harmed none but my other-self, and I knew that one of me would die before I forked. That I would die".
Because there is no way to read it otherwise. Sirim entered a lawful contract with the intention to break it. He agreed to this scheme with the Other Self, and is just as complicit.
Not quite how we want to present ourselves unless we claim he was forced or coerced into the deal. I do not know how the ascention to the Umbral Court works, nor Sirim's motives for pursuing it.
We can play on the enmity to the Midnight Lord and make a point that this contract deserved to be undermined and Sirim's life can be put to better use now that he has knowledge to share about Nidal, which keeps its secrets close otherwise. Abadar is a god of law, but not all laws should be followed.
And yes, taking part in restoration of Jernashal and the resettlement of the iruxi are good points as to why it is better for him to live again.
I've updated my plan to just have Sirim play on the enmity between Abadar and Zon-Kuthon for now.
I'm trying to think of the best way to present his actions since escaping in a positive light without seeming too much like it's all been for Abadarian brownie points.
There is a difference between not bringing his crimes to light and undermining a law-abiding court. To do the latter, we would have had to deliberately tamper with evidence, intimidate witnesses, falsify statements, etc.
No matter how we look at it, our double-crossing Gavhaul is bad optics, though few people with any real familiarity with the Apsis Consortium and what they do, and how they do it, would have a problem with it.
Not quite how we want to present ourselves unless we claim he was forced or coerced into the deal. I do not know how the ascention to the Umbral Court works, nor Sirim's motives for pursuing it.
[X] Sirim will try to explain how little choice he felt he had, raised as he was within the mockery of civilization Zon-Kuthon forces upon the inhabitants of Nidal.
-[X] It is a dysfunctional culture purposely designed by the Midnight Lord to make victims of everyone. From citizens to slaves, the wealthy and the penniless, none are spared the indignities and torment, and the higher one reaches in hopes of rising above the pain, the worse the agonies inflicted upon them become.
--[X] So when he had finally discovered a means to escape the society of his birth, even if it meant splintering his soul and losing much of himself in the process, Sirim grasped that opportunity and ran with it. And for desiring not to live under that curdled shadow of malice and sadism, the Kuthites engineered his destruction. They succeeded in that, for Sirim's body was destroyed, though the bud of his soul was able to survive in this insubstantial form. -[X] Mina will cast an Encouraging Mythic Heroism spell on Sirim before the meeting, along with an Extended Hermean Potential spell, and Kori will cast an Extended Moment of Greatness spell and an Extended Bestow Insight (Diplomacy) spell using Shadow Enchantment.
-[X] After the spells have been cast on him, Sirim will use Wild Arcana to cast Greater Magic Aura on himself to hide the auras of the spells.
--[X] Sirim will use Hermean Potential rerolls before the Bestow Insight reroll, if necessary, and he will cancel his Moment of Greatness buff to double the Morale bonus from Mythic Heroism from +5 to +10 when he judges the time is right. He will also use Mythic Surge at that point to add another +1d6 bonus to the roll as a Free Action.
I'll be glad when Sirim gets a new body. Then he'll be able to cast Air of Nobility. It's not very expensive, but it's too much for his Eschew Materials feat to handle, and he can't use it on himself until he has a body.
I guess he could possess someone, then maybe cast it on the body he is in, but I'm not sure if that would work for him or would just apply the buff to his host.
didn't get chance to develop idea. haven't read upthread.
argument: the laws of Nidal are fundamentally unjust.
Sirim rebelled to survive in the only way he could, and in ways that required no harm to anyone save either the fork-that-is-current-Siim, or the fork that-is-the-sacrafice-Sirim.
---
unrelated: for the city reclaiming, a casting of the mirror-view spell (i have it bookemarked, I tihnk) that lets us see through a mirror, and Urgor (or one of his people) see through a mirror should allow us to share text. The spell should only last days/level (I tihnk) but that should be fine for short expeditions where we might need sudden warnings to come back, or for us to provide alerts about what monster we're poking, and for people to maybe be marginally more alert.
I agree with the general point I guess. Nidal is a fundamentally unfair society in which nothing can prosper without adhering to the god of pain and torture. If we ever get into the high-end levels, overthrowing that regime is higher on my list than Cheliax or the Worldwound.
I'll be glad when Sirim gets a new body. Then he'll be able to cast Air of Nobility. It's not very expensive, but it's too much for his Eschew Materials feat to handle, and he can't use it on himself until he has a body.
I guess he could possess someone, then maybe cast it on the body he is in, but I'm not sure if that would work for him or would just apply the buff to his host.
unrelated: for the city reclaiming, a casting of the mirror-view spell (i have it bookemarked, I tihnk) that lets us see through a mirror, and Urgor (or one of his people) see through a mirror should allow us to share text. The spell should only last days/level (I tihnk) but that should be fine for short expeditions where we might need sudden warnings to come back, or for us to provide alerts about what monster we're poking, and for people to maybe be marginally more alert.
That would allow for two-0way communication with a little bit of basic prep work. The casting time is too long to use with Wild Arcana, so we will need to buy a scroll of Mirror Sight for Sirim to learn and prepare. Good catch, though. I don't think I've ever noticed this one before.
I've avoided trying to use any spells from 3.5 so far in this quest since it's been Pathfinder 1e only. DP has used two or three for various effects, but nothing that stands out as noteworthy.
It's limiting, but I have to admit I prefer it this way. It keeps things more consistent and reasonable, IMO. There are some 3.5 spells we could easily abuse. Also, I don't mind only having to refer to a single source for spells and stuff.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Dec 25, 2024 at 9:40 AM, finished with 26 posts and 4 votes.
[X] Sirim will try to explain how little choice he felt he had, raised as he was within the mockery of civilization Zon-Kuthon forces upon the inhabitants of Nidal. -[X] It is a dysfunctional culture purposely designed by the Midnight Lord to make victims of everyone. From citizens to slaves, the wealthy and the penniless, none are spared the indignities and torment, and the higher one reaches in hopes of rising above the pain, the worse the agonies inflicted upon them become. --[X] So when he had finally discovered a means to escape the society of his birth, even if it meant splintering his soul and losing much of himself in the process, Sirim grasped that opportunity and ran with it. And for desiring not to live under that curdled shadow of malice and sadism, the Kuthites engineered his destruction. They succeeded in that, for Sirim's body was destroyed, though the bud of his soul was able to survive in this insubstantial form. -[X] Mina will cast an Encouraging Mythic Heroism spell on Sirim before the meeting, along with an Extended Hermean Potential spell, and Kori will cast an Extended Moment of Greatness spell and an Extended Bestow Insight (Diplomacy) spell using Shadow Enchantment. -[X] After the spells have been cast on him, Sirim will use Wild Arcana to cast Greater Magic Aura on himself to hide the auras of the spells. --[X] Sirim will use Hermean Potential rerolls before the Bestow Insight reroll, if necessary, and he will cancel his Moment of Greatness buff to double the Morale bonus from Mythic Heroism from +5 to +10 when he judges the time is right. He will also use Mythic Surge at that point to add another +1d6 bonus to the roll as a Free Action.
Cob was all too aware that he didn't understand gods proper, they were so big that they overflowed the eye like a river poured into a cup, so loud that the sound of their voice was everywhere and nowhere, and most of them didn't seem to give a bent copper about goblins, which the goblins were more than happy to return by turning to their own. But most of those same goblins also wouldn't have thought of a way to turn back death, mostly because they didn't think they would die.
"Not that Sirim thought he'd die," Cob said to Shoffe and him alone in his head. The snake mage was kind of like a goblin himself, always chasing the bigger fire until it set his head alight. It's just that his fire didn't burn to eyes of flesh, nor witch-eyes either, but only to the eyes inside, the ones that span the dreams you have when you're awake.
Donkeys brayed and carts piled up one behind the other, people gawked and guards shouted as they passed. Not for the first time Cob wondered just how kings, queens, princesses, and all the rest worked. If just being around the rest of their folk made them act like half-pints, how'd they get anything done?
"Maybe it's just the people who live far away," the rock in his pocked answered.
"Well how come those'uns listen to them then?" he fired back and to that he got no answer, all the way to the big carved gate with the keys that turned no lock and the scales that weighed nothing.
"Pssst, why no-use thing?" he asked Gorok, knowing that he'd get a shorter answer from the iruxi than from Mina or Akorian.
"To prove they can. If you have so many hands and so skilled as to make that. what else can you do?"
"Makes sense," Cob nods.
What followed was a confusing bunch of talk about how the God of Sirim's old people did things wrong and not like the god of the big stone temple with all the gold keys that Sirim could tell was just aimed at greasing the priestess was good, maybe even the god. Could you grease up a god if they knew all that stuff? Cob wondered. Would they care if their priestess got, got?
At first it seemed she'd have none of it, getting angry at the princess for ever asking such a thing...
"The Laws of the Empire dictate that I hear all requests from the Imperial Household, but not that I heed them. We are not Osirion to bow our heads low before a lunatic pharaoh as he bleeds the people dry and withers the land. The secrets of the gods are not to be handed to those who ask in pride and spite, nay even if it be spite of the Midnight Lord." She turned to Sirim and proclaimed. "So you have sworn wizard, so you are yet bound no matter how heavy you might find the usury of Zon-Kuthon upon thy soul."
"Hmm... could take we her prisoner and make her tell him what he needs?" Shoffe wondered and Cob wondered with him, for they were much alike.
***
Rage, it was the only name Sirim of the Pale Sun could think of for the emotion that filled him as he looked upon the face of the old priestess so sure of herself, of the invisible scales of Abadar, judge of a courtroom in flames. Not even that, for the honor of actually presiding over the screaming burning battlefield of the world as though it were an ordered court went to Pharasma, not Abadar. He was as a child mumbling to himself in the dark, inventing rules. But that was not what he said, forging all of his malice into meaning and purpose, some might say into manipulation.
"Bound am I to the only god whose name I knew until I two score years and give access to the archives, and even that was early. A prodigy they called me to my face and a tool they counted me behind my back, no less than the design and the artifice of the Midnight Lord. When the Shadowbreak ended do you think that all of Nidal passed willingly back into the embrace of the Prince of Pain? How many of your fellows were tortured into recanting their faith? How many more were passed under the hooked blade of sacrifice, their hearts given to the cold hands of the libitinarii? The Midnight Lord affords his victims not even so much respect as the Lord of the Ninth, for he at least understands that mortals begin their path with freewill even as he works tirelessly to strip it from us. By turn the Kuthite Inquisition, like the Midnight Lord, respect nothing, not even themselves, they are nothing, but a scream? How could I have been bound to the words of ones who do not speak?"
"What... what do you mean they don't speak?" the priestess grasps at straws, though she does not seem to realize it. "Written contracts are just as binding."
"They do not speak, they do not reason, they are nothing screaming in infinite nothing. Sometimes that nothing lies to itself and pretends it is the person it used to be, drags others down into the pit of suffering they dwell in. Not even their hate is their own. I did not serve him even for an instant, the 'I' that was in truth a part of the Umbral Court was a husk, not even his hate remained his own, but an extension of the Midnight Lord. 'I' was murdered, twice, once partly in spirit and once in body, that I put the first instance out of its misery and made due without the second makes the deeds no less gross miscarriages of justice by any contract, law, or principle you would care to invoke."
"I..." the priestess glances over at Eutropia as though looking for reassurance, but finding none, for Sirim's speech was meant as much for that part of his audience as her. "Abadar-who-is-Judge struck agreements with Zon-Kuthon, that cannot be denied."
"And how many did he make with the servants of the Prince of Pain?"
"That is not the place of any gods. It was done by the... church." Her eyes widened.
"The same one whose faithful were tortured into madness?" If the mage's shadowy form had eyebrows he would have raised them. As is, he had to contend himself with rising whole higher and higher into the air. Then, as though to offer an out, "Though I suppose some managed to escape the purges, to flee or live in hiding... hunted apostates." After a pause, left so that his words might sink in further, the wizard continued: "Were I one of them would you judge me so harshly for swearing false and worshiping in secret? Would you have denied them?"
Without words and without meaning to the priestess shook her head... and a moment later realized what she had admitted to and what that signified. One of the guiding principles of the judge of gods was that he judged all by the same standard as his own, for his standards were perfect.
"I have no interest in restoring the dead to life, only myself from present misfortune," Sirim pressed and he could see her resolve crumble. Victory tasted... well, it tasted like nothing for he had not tongue, but that would be remedied soon. Alas, he did not know how long that door would be open to him, so after providing a vision of Sanar Sirim rushed into the temple library, seeing the texts, the understanding that would make him whole again.
In the absence of Sirim, who will be busy studying, what if any preparations do they make before facing the recalcitrant nobles?
[] Try to track down the missing pirates again, if they are anywhere in the city it would be at the the warded Basri estate
[] Be ready for a fight, but don't start anything
[] Nobles sounds like they would have quite a lot to loot and it wouldn't take much to set off Eutropia given her dark mood, see if you can profit by your proximity to Taldan Intrigues again
[] Write in
OOC: I ended up doing an interlude split down the middle since this was a chance to add a bit more nuance on what Cob thinks of Sirim, hope it works.
It probably says something about me that my mind went to a very different place than Cob's as I read this question...
Damned good job with that priestess, Sirim. I hope you didn't cause her any trouble with Abadar with that last exchange. Well, not too much trouble anyway. 🧐
I don't want to go looking for a fight or starting trouble. Things must be somewhat tense in the city right now, and they're only going to get worse as the princess moves to hold House Basri accountable.
With Sirim preoccupied, I think we should just brace ourselves and be ready to act should it proves necessary.
[X] Be ready for a fight, but don't start anything
EDIT: @DragonParadox, have Mina or Sirim managed to learn any spell scrolls over the past couple days?
