Fear Cuts Deeper Than Swords: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder Quest

[T_of_A]

While I understand the sentiment I'm still tempted by better casting. That's probably a personal thing though,even when I played bard the character ends up handling more like a sorcerer.

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Same here! I always play casters, or rogues who end up being basically casters/alchemical-casters.

No, we'll never grow powerful. A strong fighter with some neat perks and decent abilities, sure, but never powerful.

An accelerated spell casting track is nothing special when you're still limited to Paladin spell lists. It's just helpful to have a small handful of decent spells by level four or five rather than having to wait until level nine or ten to have any appreciable spellcasting abilities at all. Learning Cure Light Wounds when full casters are about to gain the ability to travel hundreds of miles in an instant, step into new Planes of existence, or transform an enemy into a turtle as easy as we can swing a sword, well, that's just deeply unsatisfying.

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We have yet to see the difficulty of this game. You are basing your opinion on standard CR-appropriate stuff, but nothing says that our QM cares about that!
Indeed, we don't even have fellow PCs to compare ourselves to.

Furthermore, it's far easier to make encounters easier than to make them harder : as our current QM seems like a rules-newbie, I would prefer to avoid power creep during character creation

IMO we can pick for flavor now, and can probably expect difficulty to adjust

This. If we're not a full-caster we need to diplomance and recruit as many fullcasters as we can.

It will probably be a good idea to travel Westeros at first so we can find them.

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I agree with you in principle, but I'm afraid of turning this into an inferior clone of ASWAH. Let's do things a little differently!

Even though yes, playing a martial PC sucks balls.

Most save or dies are at higher levels and their saves are all either fort or will, which are a paladin's good saves (plus divine grace, which we get next level, plus whatever bullshit we manage to tack on by then). Also, we'll be immune to a solid chunk of them (paladins are immune to fear effects after level 3).

The save or dies in the early levels have low saves. You only get high saves that early if the caster in question is min-maxed to hell and back, so they can't really do anything else all that well.

Save or dies can kill anyone and nobody can stop bad rolls.

We can deal with damage easily in the middle of combat. Lay on Hands (which we get next level) is a swift action when used on ourselves.

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Amazingly, literally everything you said is wrong. Sorry.

There are level 1 spells that are effectively "save-or-die", like Sleep. Cast it, then coup de grâce. Bam, instant death! And let's not even mention Power Word Pain... That's a "no save, just die" at low levels.
This only gets worse with Hold Person, etc. You're hit by one of those, and you are effectively dead. At higher levels, "Finger of Death" works similarly : unless your allies can rush in and save you (a scroll of Revivify is traditional, but there are many ways of reverting death mid-combat and those are usually better than Raise Dead and other effects that still work if you died a few minutes ago), then you are dead.

Then, high saves are actually easy to get. Just spend your feats on that, and it works ! Gear and stuff can help, but it's honestly fairly easy to get a high DC on a low-level spell that targets the weak saves of your target (use Knowledge skills to identify that weak save, it's usually easy). And there are spells that target each save and that basically kill you when they land. At low levels, your weak saves are at +1 to +3. Meanwhile enemies can throw DC 16-19 effects easily, if not higher. The odds are pretty bad there...

At high levels, this gets worse because basically everything can throw save-effects around. The game is balanced around having access to buffs and gear, and reroll mechanics. Conveniently, spellcasters get a lot of ways to make themselves immune to bad rolls (rerolls, make rolls count as a 20, insane bonuses, crafting and polymorphing tricks and summoning to get gear, immunities...). Meanwhile martials depend on spellcasting allies and magic gear to survive against level-appropriate enemies.

And most ennemies that rely on damage to kill you can inflict it in large amounts : Lay on Hands is useful, but it just doesn't keep up at higher levels.
Still, for now it's fine.

SoD do indeed tend towards high levels, but magical beings can have them as SLAs long before human mages of equivalent CR, which is my point. The CR scale is designed for players with access to an magical equipment. We should thus make that a significant OOC goal.

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This.
D&D relies on every character having a lot of "boring" gear that just applies +5 to various numbers. Pathfinder is the same. Without a lot of such gear, you will die like a punk all the time. That's fine, but only if you want death to be a revolving door and if you have several people capable of raising the dead in the party...

 

[Miriam]

Don't forget that depending on how the story goes, you don't have to stay with a martial class. And depending on the choices made and adventures taken, I am willing to boost abilities or stats or whatnot if you do exceptionally well.

And as for recruitment, well... that depends on what you have Domeric do...

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

Is there any way we can sneak in arcana as a class skill? I have a feeling we are going to need it sooner rather than later as we poke around the Dreadfort.

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We can use a trait for that.

 

[Goldfish]

Don't forget that depending on how the story goes, you don't have to stay with a martial class. And depending on the choices made and adventures taken, I am willing to boost abilities or stats or whatnot if you do exceptionally well.

And as for recruitment, well... that depends on what you have Domeric do...

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Don't mind me, nothing to see here.

/starts making plans for Domeric to become a Life Oracle

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

I hear good things about Warpriest, too.

In any case, looking into a few options for builds right now. Generally, there are some interesting things to consider:
1 - Mounted Combat: It's simple, and it's incredibly effective. Things hit with Spirited Charges generally die on the spot. The caveat is obvious: you need to get on your mount of choice for it to work, and it takes three feats. Upside, is that three is all it takes.
2 - Barding it up: From Smite To Song opens up several interesting capabilities, including Dragonfire Inspiration, and bardic music is generally pretty damn good. Obvious downside is that it costs a smite use. Potentially extra benefit is that PF Bards advance Inspire Courage faster, and the attack and damage bonus is the much rarer competence, instead of morale.
3 - Ultimate Mercy: This one feat is something of a game-changer, especially in a place where magic is as scarce as here. Essentially, you get to Raise Dead, including without expending material components. Downside: two feats to qualify, and unless we spend even more feats, it's not going to come in early. We could potentially rush this by pumping Charisma up to 20 at character creation and picking up a Extra Lay on Hands feat, and get it as early as level 7. This would be absolutely awesome, but it comes at a cost, both in feats (3) and in ability scores (a 18 will really eat into our point buy). We'd be looking at a STR 14 DEX 8 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 8 CHA 20 starting spread, which while actually being pretty good, it's far more specialized.

Both 1 and 2 are effective and fit the character's background, and 3 is something pretty unique for picking a Pally in getting Raise Dead early, and without the limiting material component.

And, of course, literally raising the dead tends to add some weight to your words

 

[Plausbius]

When Domeric gets a magical mount, it must be a giant fluffy wolf. I will not vote for any others!

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

For stats, the best options I see are:
1) STR 14 DEX 8 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 8 CHA 18+2 - The Ultimate Mercy spread.
2) STR 16 DEX 10 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 8 CHA 16+2 - A standard, all-round good option: good strenght and charisma, moderate constiution, non-negative Dex and just enough INT to give an extra skill point. A variation of this would be swapping DEX and INT, but we need skill points more than a little more DEX, IMO, as you can always compensate with itens and spells.
2.1) Knock STR down to 15 (to round it off at lv 4) and start with 14 INT for more skills.

I... don't think people are hyped for an Archer build? Fortunately for us, we have weapon proficiencies, so while we might not be rocking Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim, carrying a Composite Longbow and Smiting the shit out of it is still a pretty good tactic for dealing with annoyingly positioned enemies.

Thoughts?

 

[Goldfish]

For stats, the best options I see are:
1) STR 14 DEX 8 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 8 CHA 18+2 - The Ultimate Mercy spread.
2) STR 16 DEX 10 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 8 CHA 16+2 - A standard, all-round good option: good strenght and charisma, moderate constiution, non-negative Dex and just enough INT to give an extra skill point. A variation of this would be swapping DEX and INT, but we need skill points more than a little more DEX, IMO, as you can always compensate with itens and spells.
2.1) Knock STR down to 15 (to round it off at lv 4) and start with 14 INT for more skills.

I... don't think people are hyped for an Archer build? Fortunately for us, we have weapon proficiencies, so while we might not be rocking Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim, carrying a Composite Longbow and Smiting the shit out of it is still a pretty good tactic for dealing with annoyingly positioned enemies.

Thoughts?

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Option two, and no mounted combat feats.

We can also get an extra skill point from a Favored Class bonus. Normally for a melee-focused build I would go with the extra Hit Point each level instead, but there is a feat, the name of which I cannot currently remember, which allows you to get the skill point and Hit Point each level. That's an investment worth making, IMO.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

We can also get an extra skill point from a Favored Class bonus. Normally for a melee-focused build I would go with the extra Hit Point each level instead, but there is a feat, the name of which I cannot currently remember, which allows you to get the skill point and Hit Point each level. That's an investment worth making, IMO.

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Yeah, it's a human-only feat.

Funnily, it's worse than that generic feat that simply gives you +1 skill point per level, as it's class-dependant.

No rushing Ultimate Mercy?

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

A pair of feat's I'd strongly urge us to take is Battle Blessing and Awesome Smite, to take at 5th and 7th.

 

[Duesal]

Don't forget that depending on how the story goes, you don't have to stay with a martial class. And depending on the choices made and adventures taken, I am willing to boost abilities or stats or whatnot if you do exceptionally well.

And as for recruitment, well... that depends on what you have Domeric do...

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I'm holding out for a Barbarian Giant and a Druid or Ranger Child of the Forest.

 

[Horium]

Really interested to see how this develops.

With all due respect to Dragonparadox, I really hope this quest doesn't turn into a dnd reskin as well, but rather that it takes more inspiration out of the mythical background of Planetos.

 

[Goldfish]

Really interested to see how this develops.

With all due respect to Dragonparadox, I really hope this quest doesn't turn into a dnd reskin as well, but rather that it takes more inspiration out of the mythical background of Planetos.

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That way leads straight toward Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos...

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

I'm really starting to dig getting Ultimate Mercy at 7th. We could bring Domeric's mother back, for one. Lyanna Stark, too.

It's just such a tremendous card to play, and one that no one should be even close to being able to match.

I really want a mounted build to represent the character, too, but that has some downsides we can't ignore... Especially in getting a good mount, like a Dragonnel.

@Goldfish how about a feat at 5th for an INT 2 Dragonnel? @Zioneer something like that would need to be signaled from IC, how does a "bought a large, exotic "dragon egg" at Gultown" sound? Not an actual dragon, but the merchant wasn't lying when he said he went to the outskirts of Valyrian badlands and found it. Just a fairly murderous dragon-horse.

An unicorn is something you can get with just an ACF at 5th, at the cost of it having a delayed Special Mount progression. How about our patron guiding us to one of the deep primeval florests of the North?

Even if we don't pick up the riding feats, a good Ride score and just fighting from on top of it is valuable, especially for an exotic one.

Also, what about being a Mystic Fire Knight, and the Spellshatter feature costing a Channel Energy use to fuel (and still being limited to 1/day at 6th, and one more every three levels afterward, like the original)? What about that @Artemis1992 ?

 

[Goldfish]

I'm really starting to dig getting Ultimate Mercy at 7th. We could bring Domeric's mother back, for one. Lyanna Stark, too.

It's just such a tremendous card to play, and one that no one should be even close to being able to match.

I really want a mounted build to represent the character, too, but that has some downsides we can't ignore... Especially in getting a good mount, like a Dragonnel.

@Goldfish how about a feat at 5th for an INT 2 Dragonnel? @Zioneer something like that would need to be signaled from IC, how does a "bought a large, exotic "dragon egg" at Gultown" sound? Not an actual dragon, but the merchant wasn't lying when he said he went to the outskirts of Valyrian badlands and found it. Just a fairly murderous dragon-horse.

An unicorn is something you can get with just an ACF at 5th, at the cost of it having a delayed Special Mount progression. How about our patron guiding us to one of the deep primeval florests of the North?

Even if we don't pick up the riding feats, a good Ride score and just fighting from on top of it is valuable, especially for an exotic one.

Also, what about being a Mystic Fire Knight, and the Spellshatter feature costing a Channel Energy use to fuel (and still being limited to 1/day at 6th, and one more every three levels afterward, like the original)? What about that @Artemis1992 ?

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Yeah, if we can swing Ultimate Mercy by 7th level, that would be pretty amazing.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

Seeing how a lot of people would like better casting, but @TalonofAnathrax does raise a good point with trying and keeping it simple, what about casting as a Warpriest? We can look into making a fifth and sixth level list afterwards.

It's a nice, happy medium between "4/9 casting quickly becomes worthless" and "Essentially a gestalt a la Mystic Ranger". It's enough Spellcasting to be fairly relevant, but not your entire thing, and it goes well with a CHA-heavy build.

This simplifies the Mystic Fire Knight idea too (as we don't have Turn Undead to replace with the Improved Spellcasting feature), leaving only the smite effect and Spellshatter.

@Zioneer @thread?

 

[Miriam]

Seeing how a lot of people would like better casting, but @TalonofAnathrax does raise a good point with trying and keeping it simple, what about casting as a Warpriest? We can look into making a fifth and sixth level list afterwards.

It's a nice, happy medium between "4/9 casting quickly becomes worthless" and "Essentially a gestalt a la Mystic Ranger". It's enough Spellcasting to be fairly relevant, but not your entire thing, and it goes well with a CHA-heavy build.

This simplifies the Mystic Fire Knight idea too (as we don't have Turn Undead to replace with the Improved Spellcasting feature), leaving only the smite effect and Spellshatter.

@Zioneer @thread?

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To clarify, do you mean that you want Domeric to remain in the Ghost Hunter class, but cast as a Warpriest as a homebrew thing?

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

What about taking all of these ideas, mixing it with Ghost Hunter and the character's background, and making something new, that'd be well worth staying Paladin all the way?

How's this for an archetype, @Zioneer @thread ? The ability descriptions are dry as I'm knocking this out quick for the vote. Suggestions for names and descriptions appreciated (especially from @DragonParadox , the master of absurdly cool fluff)

Paladin of Dawn

Your line has been that of Lords since time immemorial, since before the Age of Heroes itself. Your ancestor rose to fight the tide of darkness, and was one of the giants upon whose shoulders Bran the Builder stood when facing the Long Night. Your coming as a Paladin has awakened something deep and powerful within your blood.

HD: d8

Skills: Add Knowledge (Arcana) to class skills.

Casting: From Charisma, following the Warpriest table (6th level casting), from the Paladin list (Orisons from Cleric list, 5th and 6th level spells to be decided because that's a lot of work that will take many levels to be relevant so I will come to it later).

Ghostly Smite (Su)

A Paladin of Dawn's smite evil ability does not automatically bypass DR (other than DR/good), unless it's against an Undead or [Cold] creature.
However, she treats her weapon as a ghost touch weapon against the target of her smite. She does not deal extra damage on the first attack against evil outsiders and evil dragons, but she deals 3 points of damage per paladin level she possesses to undead creatures on the first attack (instead of 2 points).
This ability alters smite evil.

Dawn Fire (Su):

At forth level, a Paladin of Dawn is able to spend a use of Channel Energy as a free action whenever he hits a creature with Smite Evil and, if said creature fails a Will save DC (10 + 1/2 paladin level + charisma), the purifying flame of dawn wracks it with pain and, for one round, it must make a Concentration check DC (10 + Paladin level + Charisma) in order to cast spells, use spell trigger or spell completion itens.

Heroic Steed (Sp):

Gain an Unicorn* instead of the usual Special Mount options. Consider your effective Druid level as four lower than your Paladin level for the purposes of its advancement. At 10th level, it gains the Celestial Creature template. At 15th level, the Celestial Creature template is upgraded to Half-Celestial.

This ability replaces Divine Bond.

Exorcise Possession (Su)

At 6th level, a Paladin of Dawn can try to end any possession spells or effects, or effects that directly exercise mental control over a creature.
She must touch the affected creature (this requires a melee touch attack if the target is neither willing nor helpless) and expend a use of her lay on hands ability.
The target can immediately attempt a Will save against the original save DC of the controlling effect. If the save is successful, the effect immediately ends, as if the target had succeeded at its original saving throw.
This ability replaces the 6th-level mercy.

Spellshatter (Su):

Once per day at 9th level, and one time more every three levels afterward, you may deliver a Targeted Greater Dispel Magic effect with a melee attack against a creature under your Smite Evil. You must spend one use of Lay on Hands to trigger this ability, and your Caster Level is equal your Paladin Level. You must declare you are using this ability before making your attack roll.
This ability replaces the 9th-level mercy.

*: May or may not actually look like an enormous, "majestic" carnivore goat.**
**: The divine patron is not legally liable for the grumpiness, if any, of your sentient magical goat.



How about that? Unicorns because they are essentially Paladin Horses, and actually cannon in ASOIAF.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

It mixes the Undead fighting and High Magic themes.

4th level casting really is a bit too shitty, but 6th level has a balance that's just right for "you are decent at magic" without being "you are a wizard now". It's the Warpriest, Magus and Bard progression.

And, unlike with Mystic Ranger, it actually staggers out your casting, instead of you being a gestalt with a full caster for the first ten levels, and then abruptly nothing.

We were looking into ways to rectify the Paladin's shitty casting: Sword of the Arcane Order, Mystic Fire, Magical Knack, homebrew Mystic Paladin, etc.

I think just plainly making it a 6/9 progression is a solution that's neat and balanced. We are still noticeably behind the real casters, but we aren't just a guy with tricks that were sorta good five to ten levels ago.

Other stuff is to add some spice to the class that's withing the "magic" theme, and a cool mount for our riding prodigy that's a cannon animal from the region, even if today it's degenerated into a mundane beast.

And come on, the classical paladin has to have a noble white steed, right?

 

[Goldfish]

What about taking all of these ideas, mixing it with Ghost Hunter and the character's background, and making something new, that'd be well worth staying Paladin all the way?

How's this for an archetype, @Zioneer @thread ? The ability descriptions are dry as I'm knocking this out quick for the vote. Suggestions for names and descriptions appreciated (especially from @DragonParadox , the master of absurdly cool fluff)

Paladin of Dawn

Your line has been that of Lords since time immemorial, since before the Age of Heroes itself. Your ancestor rose to fight the tide of darkness, and was one of the giants upon whose shoulders Bran the Builder stood when facing the Long Night. Your coming as a Paladin has awakened something deep and powerful within your blood.

HD: d8

Casting: From Charisma, following the Warpriest table (6th level casting), from the Paladin list (Orisons from Cleric list, 5th and 6th level spells to be decided because that's a lot of work that will take many levels to be relevant so I will come to it later).

Ghostly Smite (Su)

A Paladin of Dawn's smite evil ability does not automatically bypass DR (other than DR/good), unless it's against an Undead or [Cold] creature.
However, she treats her weapon as a ghost touch weapon against the target of her smite. She does not deal extra damage on the first attack against evil outsiders and evil dragons, but she deals 3 points of damage per paladin level she possesses to undead creatures on the first attack (instead of 2 points).
This ability alters smite evil.

Dawn Fire (Su):

At forth level, a Paladin of Dawn is able to spend a use of Channel Energy as a free action whenever he hits a creature with Smite Evil and, if said creature fails a Will save DC (10 + 1/2 paladin level + charisma), the purifying flame of dawn wracks it with pain and, for one round, it must make a Concentration check DC (10 + Paladin level + Charisma) in order to cast spells, use spell trigger or spell completion itens.

Heroic Steed (Sp):

Gain an Unicorn instead of the usual Special Mount options. Consider your effective Druid level as four lower than your Paladin level for the purposes of its advancement. At 10th level, it gains the Celestial Creature template. At 15th level, the Celestial Creature template is upgraded to Half-Celestial.

This ability replaces Special Mount.

Exorcise Possession (Su)

At 6th level, a Paladin of Dawn can try to end any possession spells or effects, or effects that directly exercise mental control over a creature.
She must touch the affected creature (this requires a melee touch attack if the target is neither willing nor helpless) and expend a use of her lay on hands ability.
The target can immediately attempt a Will save against the original save DC of the controlling effect. If the save is successful, the effect immediately ends, as if the target had succeeded at its original saving throw.
This ability replaces the 6th-level mercy.

Spellshatter (Su):

Once per day at 9th level, and one time more every three levels afterward, you may deliver a Targeted Greater Dispel Magic effect with a melee attack against a creature under your Smite Evil. You must spend one use of Lay on Hands to trigger this ability, and your Caster Level is equal your Paladin Level. You must declare you are using this ability before making your attack roll.
This ability replaces the 9th-level mercy.

How about that? Unicorns because they are essentially Paladin Horses, and actually cannon in ASOIAF.

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PF Paladins don't necessarily get a special mount. It's a choice between the mount or a self-empowered sword.

For Warpriest casting, I would say we axe the mount/sword choice entirely.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

PF Paladins don't necessarily get a special mount. It's a choice between the mount or a self-empowered sword.

For Warpriest casting, I would say we axe the mount/sword choice entirely.

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That's why it is replacing the choice entirely and saying "here's a mount".

I mean, if that's the cost for actually decent casting, I will gladly take it.

But a cool horse when we don't even plan on Spirited Charging it up, on a character that's cannonically prodigal at riding, felt pretty good.

The unicorn gets a tame horse and two inconsequential hoof attacks, and some low-level healing.

The templates add a bit of durability, and flight at 15th level. But then again, that's fifteenth level. The Wizard has been flying since 5th, the Cleric has been Air Walking since 7th. The SLAs are largely similar to what he already had, besides a 1/day low CL Dispel Evil and Holy Smite (yawn).

 

[Miriam]

Hmm, I like the abilities, though I was planning for the actual source of Domeric's paladin powers to be a bit more esoteric.

And if people want to vote on Paladin of Dawn, that's definitely an option.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

Hmm, I like the abilities, though I was planning for the actual source of Domeric's paladin powers to be a bit more esoteric.

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Of course, you can just fluff it up however you want. The Dawn Fire thing can be just an addition to Smite Evil (as it didn't even have a name of its own on the original), and Spellshatter is pretty generic.

Anything else that jumps as contrasting with what you had planned? The mount choice good?

 

[Goldfish]

That's why it is replacing the choice entirely and saying "here's a mount".

I mean, if that's the cost for actually decent casting, I will gladly take it.

But a cool horse when we don't even plan on Spirited Charging it up, on a character that's cannonically prodigal at riding, felt pretty good.

The unicorn gets a tame horse and two inconsequential hoof attacks, and some low-level healing.

The templates add a bit of durability, and flight at 15th level. But then again, that's fifteenth level. The Wizard has been flying since 5th, the Cleric has been Air Walking since 7th. The SLAs are largely similar to what he already had, besides a 1/day low CL Dispel Evil and Holy Smite (yawn).

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I would prefer no special mount at all. It's always been my second least favorite aspect of Paladins, right behind their Code.

Reskinned Paladiny version of Phantom Steed as a 2nd level spell maybe? One only useable by the caster?

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

I would prefer no special mount at all. It's always been my second least favorite aspect of Paladins, right behind their Code.

Reskinned Paladiny version of Phantom Steed as a 2nd level spell maybe? One only useable by the caster?

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I like the Unicorn for being thematic to the region, and come on, Domeric is essentially the Horse Guy from ASOIAF. He was said to be a better rider than Lyanna, and Lyanna's one thing was how she was incredibly good at horsemanship.

It's useful and thematic, not to mention a classic choice. Knight on a white steed and all that.