Fate/Lunar Song (Nasuverse/Symphogear)

Golden Lark · Oct 29, 2015

That bit is easy. The Lyrics don't lie.

Miku was pouring her fucking heart into that song and that fight, and the end result was more or less a wide scale high energy expression of Shen Shou Jing's properties in its purest form. That being: purification itself.

Unfortunately for Hibiki, her failure to embrace Gungnir's capacity for piercing consciously (berserker Hibiki and X-drive Hibiki in G did it well enough, sans flashcard moves) means that she is never going to match that direct capacity for attack via pure conceptual expression with her favorite Gear. Now, her grasping ability obviously scales up, but it will never be at 100% efficiency due to the fact that it's not really Gungnir's thing, conceptually.

I kind of want to see Hibiki give Argetlam a spin, since it's a freaking gauntlet by default.

But yeah, even if Miku's actions and logic were compromised by Ver at the time, her heart was not. He built every aspect of the hasty slipshod Gear acclimation around her absolute, unwavering feelings, and let's be honest; it was pretty fucking effective, for what it was.

notthepenguins · Oct 29, 2015

Golden Lark said:
But yeah, even if Miku's actions and logic were compromised by Ver at the time, her heart was not. He built every aspect of the hasty slipshod Gear acclimation around her absolute, unwavering feelings, and let's be honest; it was pretty fucking effective, for what it was.

Was it not, though? There's more than enough commentary in that scene to indicate that her will wasn't behind it, which has to mean that her heart wasn't fully, either. Her song itself is twisting and doesn't follow step from step; it's genuine but it's not internally consistent and not pure.

But, setting that aside, because in the end it doesn't matter.

Even if you assume that her heart was unwavering, even if you assume Hibiki actually understood everything within her song, you need to know more than just emotions for snagging the conceptual basis for a technique like that. You need the context, the reasons behind them, because without them you don't know the shadings and applications of meaning, and Hibiki quite frankly never got that. Neither she nor Miku actually wanted to talk about it, after. The best she has is inference and extrapolation, and she shies away from both of those because thinking about that Miku hurts her.

Could Hibiki understand that Miku? Sure. Does she actually? That's a very different question, and one to which I would say no. And her attempts to understand via extrapolation (as in, without Miku's input, just based on what she knows and can infer), might well lead her in the wrong direction. They wouldn't inevitably do so, but the possibility is certainly there.

Certainly, any understanding she was able to gain of Miku in the Shen Shou Jing would not be nearly on the level she has of Miku as she is normally, which is what justinkal was using as a basis for his question.

Incidentally, you're right about conceptual expression with regards to Gungnir, and grasping, but it's in the end something of a moot point, because she'll never get far enough on grasping, even, to hit its actual limits.

justinkal · Oct 29, 2015

notthepenguins said:
Was it not, though? There's more than enough commentary in that scene to indicate that her will wasn't behind it, which has to mean that her heart wasn't fully, either. Her song itself is twisting and doesn't follow step from step; it's genuine but it's not internally consistent and not pure.

Based on how embarrassed and panic attacky Miku is in an OVA when seeing the recording of herself fighting, I'm leaning towards "yes, her heart was fully into it". Based on his statements in that battle and GX, I'm inclined to think that a big part of how Ver's LiNKER works is lowering your inhibitions towards bearing your true feelings before the world, make it easier for the Gear to draw the lyrics out of your subconcious.

A more pertinent question though is if this quest's divergence from G happened late enough for Miku's fight scene to even be canon to the quest

notthepenguins · Oct 29, 2015

justinkal said:
Based on how embarrassed and panic attacky Miku is in an OVA when seeing the recording of herself fighting, I'm leaning towards "yes, her heart was fully into it". Based on his statements in that battle and GX, I'm inclined to think that a big part of how Ver's LiNKER works is lowering your inhibitions towards bearing your true feelings before the world, make it easier for the Gear to draw the lyrics out of your subconcious.

Ver's tactical assessments are shown time and again to be, ah, rather wrong. I am far more inclined to trust Nastassja's commentary that what Ver is doing cannot prevail against genuine willpower (and thus, what Miku is doing cannot be born of genuine willpower), because that's what actually plays out in the episode. She gets her ass kicked back and forth by Chris until Chris tries the exact wrong counterplay, and she doesn't stand a ghost of a chance against Hibiki. Miku was certainly into it, but the scene supports the idea that she wasn't entirely into it quite well. I haven't seen that OVA, but she doesn't need to have been actually one hundred percent devoted to be utterly horrified and guilty about what she did.

justinkal said:
A more pertinent question though is if this quest's divergence from G happened late enough for Miku's fight scene to even be canon to the quest

Oh, it certainly did. When I referenced them not wanting to talk about it, and Hibiki's lack of desire to think about it, I was referencing this quest's AU. Although, I'll note that Ver's LiNKER was required to manage the brain interface, not to make Miku Gear-compatible in the first place.

The real question present in this Quest's AU that never really gets discussed in the series is why the hell Hibiki survived. She was more Gear than human at that point (we can quite clearly see it altering her cells and structure in Season 1 -- it was replacing, not adding), nearly killed herself by exacerbating its spread to save Miku, and then jumped into a Gear-destroying laser.

By all rights, she should have died right there by wiping away the vast majority of her body, and they honestly have no idea why she didn't. Then again, they still have no idea why Tsubasa and Chris came back to life (or at least, back from the brink of death -- it's not like they can really be sure on that front since no one was watching) during the final battle of S1, beyond "Uhh, Phonic Gain I guess?" Similar questions and answers apply to "How did Hibiki manage to channel six Zesshous without exploding when previously three was really hard on her with an impossibly high sync ratio that she now lacks?"

They mostly filed all those under "weird bullshit mysteries, let's not try that again," shrugged their shoulders, and went back to work.

(This is one of the ways in which working with magic bullshit without actually having thorough knowledge of the setting's metaphysics makes life hard)

justinkal · Oct 29, 2015

notthepenguins said:
I haven't seen that OVA, but she doesn't need to have been actually one hundred percent devoted to be utterly horrified and guilty about what she did.

It wasn't horrified or guilty. It was being embarrassed at how obvious she was making her yuri feelings.

You totally should see the two OVAs that came with G......despite it being a bit difficult due to not being on Crunchyroll. Unlike most OVAs, Symphogear's OVAs are a mix of worldbuilding, humor, and character development instead of fanservice. Fanservice is actually pretty much impossible in them, because everything looks like it was drawn with crayons. Everything in them looks like this.

Each OVA is basically a sequence of vignettes, occuring at various points in time. The first OVA consists of vignettes that occur either shortly after season 1 or shortly before G, and the second OVA consists of ones that happen during G and shortly after G. GX seems to imply that they are canon, because it had multiple call backs to events from the OVAs (such as Miku having a key to Chris's apartment).

GX will also have 4 more of those OVAs spread among the blurays.

notthepenguins said:
Similar questions and answers apply to "How did Hibiki manage to channel six Zesshous without exploding when previously three was really hard on her with an impossibly high sync ratio that she now lacks?"

Actually, she kept her bullshit high sync rate even after no longer being fused with Gungnir

notthepenguins · Oct 29, 2015

justinkal said:
Actually, she kept her bullshit high sync rate even after no longer being fused with Gungnir

Meh, not here she didn't.

justinkal · Oct 29, 2015

Oh, and world building comes courtesy of scenes like this.

Miku asking Hibiki and Tsubasa where the lyrics come from. When watching the recording of herself fighting, she gets really embarrassed when she flashes back to this scene and remembers the answer.

Azecreth · Oct 29, 2015

Guys, I think we may begetting a bit ahead of ourselves here with this whole conversation. Imma propose that we get back to full strength first, before we go experimenting. After all, theoretical anti-magic hax are nice and all, as well as whatever else we may pull, but I'd like to be able to give another servant a serious fight without having to use a Command seal each time, if you don't mind. Because otherwise that isn't what one would call a winning situation.

Golden Lark · Oct 29, 2015

I was running under the assumption that the author had seen the OVAs. If I could do an SA :colbert: emoticon here upon hearing he hadn't, I would.

Go watch them! They are good! And they clarify my argument precisely, as Justinkal points out.

notthepenguins · Oct 29, 2015

justinkal said:
GX seems to imply that they are canon, because it had multiple call backs to events from the OVAs (such as Miku having a key to Chris's apartment).

The OVAs aren't canon, per their original announcements. They're not full, Carnival Phantasm-grade we-are-on-drugs-ignore-us-entirely noncanon, but they're still not really canon and they take a solid back seat to any canon sources. Even more so in practice here, as I've only seen the first one and have other things to watch.

Even if they were canon, the idea of Miku having any reaction to being forcibly reminded of her a) attempting to murder Chris and Tsubasa (to say nothing of Kirika and Shirabe), and b) fighting Hibiki, that isn't dominated by guilt and horror... is so horrendously out of character I would discard it out of hand anyway. If I need to change things to make characters work in a sane and story-appropriate manner, I will.

Azecreth said:
Guys, I think we may begetting a bit ahead of ourselves here with this whole conversation. Imma propose that we get back to full strength first, before we go experimenting.

You, as voters, don't have direct control over when you get back to full strength; that's contingent on when Hibiki and Jordan manage a proper prana transfer. You've chosen your path, and I'm not going to keep giving votes to change your mind or press matters further because that would be really repetitive. It'll happen when it happens.

You do have control over whether or not you train new techniques to give you an edge in combat, and there are reasons to do so and not to do so. The two are fairly independent things.

Azecreth said:
After all, theoretical anti-magic hax are nice and all,

I'm not sure what about "if you had double-digit years to practice you could theoretically do it" made you think it was within reach, but you should probably rethink whatever it was

Speaking Of Special Moves, Though

Condensing her Gear energy and punching, Hibiki lets out a shotgun-like blast of energy bolts. It is short range, but that's still way better than melee-only!

Clapping her hands or punching her fists together, Hibiki resonates two energy pulses off of each other and generates an expanding shockwave. It isn't very strong, but could disorient an enemy (or knock back very weak enemies) and would play merry hell with physical projectiles.

Removing the scarf from her Gear, Hibiki takes it in her hands and uses it as a weapon, extending, contracting, and animating. She is not the most experienced with it, and it is not especially strong by Servant standards, but it can provide a reach advantage or bind and slow an enemy.

Rather than firing energy at her opponents, Hibiki lets it loose but keeps it close, a swirling storm of prana tightly wrapped around her fists. It is an energy-inefficient technique to keep active in the long term, but short activations significantly strengthen the hardiness of her gauntlets, allowing her to better block attacks. Additionally, has increased effectiveness when used to strike aside bolts of prana.

Drawing deep from the nature of Gungnir within her, and channeling her energy to enhance and amplify, Hibiki launches forward in a punch or kick with significantly increased armor-penetrating power, at the cost of increased windup time.

Update will likely not be tonight.

justinkal · Oct 29, 2015

GX seemed to be trying really hard to say that the OVAs are canon......at least to an extent. For example, in one of the first episodes, Miku has the key to Chris's apartment that she got from Hibiki in the first OVA, and in the last episode, when they show the inside of Chris's apartment, the most detailed object in the background is the fancy shrine she bought in the second OVA.

As for those attacks, Sunlit Flash and Coruscant Vortex sound the most useful.

Also, not a fan of the name "Enfolding Grasp", but that's just me.

Azecreth · Oct 29, 2015

notthepenguins said:
You, as voters, don't have direct control over when you get back to full strength; that's contingent on when Hibiki and Jordan manage a proper prana transfer. You've chosen your path, and I'm not going to keep giving votes to change your mind or press matters further because that would be really repetitive. It'll happen when it happens.

You do have control over whether or not you train new techniques to give you an edge in combat, and there are reasons to do so and not to do so. The two are fairly independent things.

Yes, I am aware of this. What I am saying to my fellow voters is that maybe we should have some sense ofpriority, not get distracted by the shiny, and focus on ways to get us back into top fighting shape ASAP so we don't have to rely on Command Seals and bersekr mode to get us through fights. Because surprisingly, I'm not a fan of that particular strategy. Though I can understand why it might be amusing for a QM.

notthepenguins said:
I'm not sure what about "if you had double-digit years to practice you could theoretically do it" made you think it was within reach, but you should probably rethink whatever it was

Oh, I don't. It taking years upon years to do it doesn't make it any less theoretical. It just makes it less practical

Golden Lark · Oct 29, 2015

justinkal said:
GX seemed to be trying really hard to say that the OVAs are canon......at least to an extent. For example, in one of the first episodes, Miku has the key to Chris's apartment that she got from Hibiki in the first OVA, and in the last episode, when they show the inside of Chris's apartment, the most detailed object in the background is the fancy shrine she bought in the second OVA.

As for those attacks, Sunlit Flash and Coruscant Vortex sound the most useful.

Also, not a fan of the name "Enfolding Grasp", but that's just me.

Give up, the battle is lost. You fought well. To press further would only push him to take a hacksaw to yet more canon out of spite. Or something. Maybe.

I'm done commenting on this quest until I go back and actually read the whole thread. A buddy recommended this to me last night because it was Nasu/Symphogear, and I just shotgunned the story posts until the last one, then started reading post by post. I liked what I read. I really did.

Now I understand that anything I know about Symphogear is irrelevant to the quest as a whole, and before I make any remotely informed decisions I'd have to carefully parse every word the author has dropped between story posts for any further clues about His Better Symphogear Cast.

Because if we're supposed to buy that HibiMikuChris threesome as even remotely in character, then there's some kind of canon source I am totally ignorant of. Or something was explained in between story posts, because that's about as left-field as it gets, given what we know, eh justinkal?

justinkal · Oct 29, 2015

Golden Lark said:
Give up, the battle is lost. You fought well. To press further would only push him to take a hacksaw to yet more canon out of spite. Or something. Maybe.

I'm done commenting on this quest until I go back and actually read the whole thread. A buddy recommended this to me last night because it was Nasu/Symphogear, and I just shotgunned the story posts until the last one, then started reading post by post. I liked what I read. I really did.

Now I understand that anything I know about Symphogear is irrelevant to the quest as a whole, and before I make any remotely informed decisions I'd have to carefully parse every word the author has dropped between story posts for any further clues about His Better Symphogear Cast.

Because if we're supposed to buy that HibiMikuChris threesome as even remotely in character, then there's some kind of canon source I am totally ignorant of. Or something was explained in between story posts, because that's about as left-field as it gets, given what we know, eh justinkal?

Its not a terribly uncommon pairing in doujins, but barely anything related to Symphogear ever gets scanned. Let alone translated.

Probably has roots in the fact that Miku actually became friends with Chris before Hibiki did.

Flibspeak · Oct 29, 2015

Golden Lark said:
Give up, the battle is lost. You fought well. To press further would only push him to take a hacksaw to yet more canon out of spite. Or something. Maybe.

I'm done commenting on this quest until I go back and actually read the whole thread. A buddy recommended this to me last night because it was Nasu/Symphogear, and I just shotgunned the story posts until the last one, then started reading post by post. I liked what I read. I really did.

Now I understand that anything I know about Symphogear is irrelevant to the quest as a whole, and before I make any remotely informed decisions I'd have to carefully parse every word the author has dropped between story posts for any further clues about His Better Symphogear Cast.

Because if we're supposed to buy that HibiMikuChris threesome as even remotely in character, then there's some kind of canon source I am totally ignorant of. Or something was explained in between story posts, because that's about as left-field as it gets, given what we know, eh justinkal?

It's only ever a side dish.

Golden Lark · Oct 30, 2015

justinkal said:
Its not a terribly uncommon pairing in doujins, but barely anything related to Symphogear ever gets scanned. Let alone translated.

Probably has roots in the fact that Miku actually became friends with Chris before Hibiki did.

Yassai mossai! Yassai mossai! Yassai mossai!

justinkal · Oct 30, 2015

Hmm, because this actually has implications in the Nasuverse, I have a question for everyone.

You know how, In Universe, it seems as if it's impossible for anyone to memorize the lyrics of the Swan Song and the Gear activation chants (most visible in GX)? Do you think that means that those lyrics are actually in the Universal Language? Remember that Fine created songs for the explicit purpose of trying to work around humanity's loss of the Universal Language.

If so, I wonder how any Servants with knowledge of the Universal Language (like Gilgamesh) would react to hearing us.

notthepenguins · Oct 30, 2015

Golden Lark said:
Give up, the battle is lost. You fought well. To press further would only push him to take a hacksaw to yet more canon out of spite. Or something. Maybe.

Let me head this off right here:

This thread is not the place for passive aggressive sniping. If that's all you have to say, I recommend taking your leave of posting in it.

This thread is similarly not the place for arguing about whether or not my interpretation of canon (and changes to canon) are correct. It's disruptive and shits up the thread, and I have zero desire to deal with it.

What this thread is a place for is constructive discussion of the quest, decisions made, and where you go going forward. Questions about the canon I am running with, what happened since the timeskip, etc are perfectly fine (though some I will refuse to answer).

justinkal · Oct 31, 2015

Hmm, something that just came to mind. I wonder if "Lancer" heard our Gear activation chant. If he did, then I'm quite surprised that he didn't have any kind of reaction to it.

I can't imagine its normal for a Lancer to not raise an eyebrow at another Servant invoking Gungnir (the only comprehensible word in the entire chant), which is quite possibly the most famous spear ever. At the very least, I would expect him to be quite confused as to who the hell Hibiki is, because she clearly isn't Odin.

notthepenguins · Oct 31, 2015

justinkal said:
Do you think that means that those lyrics are actually in the Universal Language? Remember that Fine created songs for the explicit purpose of trying to work around humanity's loss of the Universal Language.

Remember, while Hibiki (and the narrative) assert that songs provide true communication, Finè didn't, instead feeling that the Universal Language was the only way. It's a pretty good bet that if they actually granted limited access to the Universal Language, she would have a different opinion.

The other weirdness of the chants is their High Speed Divine Words-ish nature, where they can either be sung in full or in instants depending on what the speaker wanted; that is likely the kind of thing she engineered in.

justinkal said:
Hmm, something that just came to mind. I wonder if "Lancer" heard our Gear activation chant. If he did, then I'm quite surprised that he didn't have any kind of reaction to it.

Well, Hibiki finished the chant in a fraction of a second while the ground was busy exploding. He'd need pretty good ears to make that out!

Some Servants have those, though, so who can say?

Update maaay be tonight but don't count on it. A sick penguin is not a writing-busily penguin.

justinkal · Oct 31, 2015

notthepenguins said:
Remember, while Hibiki (and the narrative) assert that songs provide true communication, Finè didn't, instead feeling that the Universal Language was the only way. It's a pretty good bet that if they actually granted limited access to the Universal Language, she would have a different opinion.

Since its been a while since I last watched them, I honestly don't remember if it was explicitly stated in either of the first two seasons, so if it wasn't, fair enough, BUT, the beginning of episode 12 of GX made it quite clear that Finè was the one who created songs and that she did so for that reason.
Note: if the wording feels strange, blame Crunchyroll

Carol: Seven planets and seven musical scales. The harmony of the universe, alchemy's deepest secret, is the harmony of music and the absolute truth it creates.
Tsubasa: What do you mean?
Carol: As they all come from the same source, there's nothing strange about it at all. In the prehistoric era, after the Curse of Balal removed humanity's mutual understanding, they sought a new method. Alchemy is communication with the world, attaining harmony with it by knowing all. They tried to use it to go beyond words, to connect with the world. Both alchemy and songs were created to restore the lost unified language. Its origin is lost to history, but you three should easily be able to guess.
*Hibiki, Tsubasa, and Chris all gasp in realization and an image of Finè is then displayed on the screen*

Also, in regards to the stuff about canonicity, I'm pretty sure the source of all the confusion flying around is that generally when a quest ignores the events of certain portions of canon, the worldbuilding from those portions is still valid. If the worldbuilding introduced in G's OVAs and GX isn't valid here, that makes things highly confusing, because its often quite difficult to remember where worldbuilding was first introduced.

notthepenguins · Oct 31, 2015

justinkal said:
Also, in regards to the stuff about canonicity, I'm pretty sure the source of all the confusion flying around is that generally when a quest ignores the events of certain portions of canon, the worldbuilding from those portions is still valid. If the worldbuilding introduced in G's OVAs and GX isn't valid here, that makes things highly confusing, because its often quite difficult to remember where worldbuilding was first introduced.

About that...

The First Post said:
I'm ignoring GX pretty much entirely

When I said I was ignoring GX, I meant I, personally, was ignoring GX. I dropped it and have no intention of going back and actually watching it, so I ruled it all out to prevent exactly this eventuality. It's been stated since the beginning of this quest, and I've said so since as well.

The OVAs, when they were first announced, were explicitly stated as not-really canon, and I am still not interested in debating based on "Well GX implies they're canon." Very little saps my interest in writing this quest as much as having to take time away from actual story to argue about my interpretation of canon.

Please, lay off it.

justinkal · Oct 31, 2015

notthepenguins said:
About that...

When I said I was ignoring GX, I meant I, personally, was ignoring GX. I dropped it and have no intention of going back and actually watching it, so I ruled it all out to prevent exactly this eventuality. It's been stated since the beginning of this quest, and I've said so since as well.

The OVAs, when they were first announced, were explicitly stated as not-really canon, and I am still not interested in debating based on "Well GX implies they're canon." Please, lay off it. Very little saps my interest as much as having to take time away from actual story to argue about my interpretation of canon.

I'm not trying to argue here. If I come across that way, I'm sorry.

Like I said, I honestly don't remember if it was mentioned in an earlier season. If it wasn't, fair enough. I'd have to rewatch the first two seasons to check for sure, which is something that I doubt any of us want to do just to fact check one detail.

That last part was just a comment on WHY all these questions have gotten asked. I was saying that as players its hard to keep track of what worldbuilding is and isn't valid, due to it being hard to remember where it first appeared. That's why some of these questions get asked. I've just been trying to clear up ambiguity so that making plans is easier.

notthepenguins · Oct 31, 2015

justinkal said:
Like I said, I honestly don't remember if it was mentioned in an earlier season. If it wasn't, fair enough. I'd have to rewatch the first two seasons to check for sure, which is something that I doubt any of us want to do just to fact check one detail.

Okay, here's the thing: when you ask a question, I'm happy to answer it.

When I answer a question, and then you push back with other textual evidence citing the season I've said I'm not using... it doesn't really come across as 'not trying to argue.' Especially when the matter in question is ultimately an irrelevant side note.

As far as its presence earlier...

It did not show up before GX. In Season 1, songs were clearly an adjunct to the actual plan of blowing up the moon (they served to empower the Gears to get government funding, and activate Durandal and Nehushtan so she could use them, but that's all), and she dismissed the pinnacle of Song-using technology as simply toys (she was wrong, but that's not very important here). The Universal Language doesn't really come up in G.

justinkal · Oct 31, 2015

Fair enough. I'll drop it.

notthepenguins said:
she dismissed the pinnacle of Song-using technology as simply toys (she was wrong, but that's not very important here)

Like you said, not important here, but I've always interpreted that line as her saying that the Symphogear system is a toy made from broken relics that have been thrown away. Basically, I interpreted that as her saying that its complete relics, not Symphogears, which are the pinnalce of song-based technology.

Considering that there were probably a shit ton more complete relics around when she was actually alive, it makes sense that from her perspective the Symphogear would be nothing more than a a makeshift, MacGyver'd, bootleg method of using the power of a relic.

Like you said though, not important, so don't feel any need to reply if you don't feel like it.

In regards to the thing about sounding like I'm arguing, its a problem I have. In my family, our regular, friendly discussions around the table while eating at a restaurant look like heated arguments to the people around us

Growing up like that has effects on how you tend to discuss things.

Fate/Lunar Song (Nasuverse/Symphogear)

The First Fiction User

Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless

Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless

Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless

Giant Monster All Out Attack

The First Fiction User

Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless

Giant Monster All Out Attack

The First Fiction User

The First Fiction User

Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless

Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless

Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless

Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless