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Fate/Collapsing World

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Scia said:
Otoh it is much faster to build robots then to train up new valks .
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Yeah, they're still used cause they're good at plugging the gaps and filling out a raw quantity factor, but usually a well supplied and programmed squad of mechs, just using the cheapest tier of mook ones available, will probably kill double to triple their numbers in a lifetime, and that's if they're not just getting swarmed by greater numbers and are lucky in deployments.

I wish the Herrscher of Void scene wasn't so spoiler filled, that probably had a decent showing of Honkai Beasts vs Mechs in the earlier part of it.

On the other hand a single squad of mediocre Valkyries will probably see dozens of deployments and hundreds of dead Honkai and Zombies, each, if they have a quiet career.

From cost effectiveness, Valks just beat mechs hands down.
 
Who? said:
Well, that threw me for a loop. I mean, makes perfect sense, but still.
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As I mentioned in another response, this is what happens when Rin dedicates her efforts to things she can actually publicly talk about.

Very niiiiiice.

For reference, there's some early line that notes that machinery is about 30% as efficient as humans at processing Honkai energy?

So, Valkyries are by and large more useful, though Schicksal - in the modern day, at least - does seem to make use of mechanical forces as security, and presumabky in supporting roles as well.
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Yeah, it's less efficient so a machine needs to calibrate between 'the size of a goddamn Evangelion', 'way weaker than a Valkyrie' and 'completely ruined within the first day of use'. The honkai-powered robotics capable of competing 1-1 with a top-level Valkyrie are very rare, very expensive, and very big, and I'm not sure they last that long either. I think there might be, like, literally 2-4 mechs in the entire setting I'd consider actually capable of beating a typical A-rank Valkyrie, and most of those just exist as mid-bosses for the upper end of A where most of the main cast lives.

They have their uses (for one you don't actually need Valkyries to operate them so if you don't have a honkai-tolerant population to work with...), but in terms of mainline usage it's pouring money into a bonfire relative to using Valkyries. Granted, it's not an ethical minefield like Valkyries are.

(In Rin's case, Blue Bride takes a few points in size and dumps the rest into 'short lifespan', it can literally only operate a minute before the stress gets too high for self-repair)

TBF, if I remember the manga right, the official Valkyrie uniform is straight up a leotard, short, and stockings. No gender differences. (Louis wore that thing like a champ, damn.) At least, that was the uniform a decade or so ago.
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I'm not sure if that's the official uniform, or if Louis just dressed like that out of choice.

She does also have contacts who can give her super-advanced machinery on the cheap, and I imagine AE would like some eyes on the ground of whatever's happening in Fuyuki.

The big question is, has she ever done any work with - ME, was it? Raiden's company.
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She is looking at job offers from ME Corp, yeah. Private sector stuff.

Oh, Rin, will you ever stop making massive mistakes? Well, I guess they may not be able to instantly peg it as AE tech.
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it's out of character for rin to always have all the angles covered so she doesn't outsmart herself

Interested Party said:
I mean, AE tech is explicitly Schicksal-tech-derived to the point that you can still make the former work using parts from the latter, so it might not actually be that noticeable as long as the aesthetic is modified and no one walks a Titan into the sitting room or something.
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There've been about 50-ish years of divergence, so it's not gonna look super-alien, and since Blue Bride is a custom build it's not going to immediately raise eyebrows if the design solutions look odd and divergent from what you'd expect out of Schicksal or the private sector. But detailed examination will probably give the game away if it is AE, especially if it was made with parts shipped in from AE Central rather than domestically available parts - even if it's not divergent from Schicksal parts it would definitely be divergent from private sector which is what it's supposed to be, and if it still has AE parts labels it's gonna be even more obvious.

On the other hand it's not like student possessions get detailed forensic examinations.

ShadowAngelBeta said:
Valkyries on the other hand, even the mediocre ones, have the years long schooling start up, but last for years after. Depends on how well their body can take the Honkai, but its usually like a decade at the lower end barring extreme cases* I think?

*Himeko in other words. I think the manga had her be a survivor of an attack, but she was infected with energy so they implanted a stigmata into her despite her horrible sync rating with Honkai cause it'd let her live longer anyway.
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I'd say two to three decades is more in the normal range. Himeko's an extreme case (since she A: started pretty late, and B: has far below Valkyrie-grade honkai tolerance) and has gone eight years before she's really looking at her looming doom.

I wish the Herrscher of Void scene wasn't so spoiler filled, that probably had a decent showing of Honkai Beasts vs Mechs in the earlier part of it.
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To be fair, those were knightbeasts, which are probably around the top of Chariot-class - like, those are about as high as the honkai beast category gets before you have to start giving them individual names. Though those were also likely the highest-end mechs too.
 
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Pale Wolf said:
I'm not sure if that's the official uniform, or if Louis just dressed like that out of choice.
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Its what Kallen's Ritual suit wears as well under the armor flaps (I think) and her thing was being a newbie at the school or something in her event/paralogue thing.
Pale Wolf said:
To be fair, those were knightbeasts, which are probably around the top of Chariot-class - like, those are about as high as the honkai beast category gets before you have to start giving them individual names. Though those were also likely the highest-end mechs too.
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It was about an equal weight-class throw down. Knightbeasts are pretty tough yeah, but it was also their equivalent in the mech department they were fighting instead of Shamans or the little explody bots. Rocket boys too, but that's also what I meant by mechs usually having a better supplies and programming, err, better tactical and strategic support I guess would be also what I meant.

Also
Pale Wolf said:
like, those are about as high as the honkai beast category gets before you have to start giving them individual names
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Emperors. Also now Crabs. Fucking Crabs, those things are a pain in the ass. And the weird spire like ones with the detached or barely attached arms.
 
ShadowAngelBeta said:
Yeah, they're still used cause they're good at plugging the gaps and filling out a raw quantity factor, but usually a well supplied and programmed squad of mechs, just using the cheapest tier of mook ones available, will probably kill double to triple their numbers in a lifetime, and that's if they're not just getting swarmed by greater numbers and are lucky in deployments.

I wish the Herrscher of Void scene wasn't so spoiler filled, that probably had a decent showing of Honkai Beasts vs Mechs in the earlier part of it.

On the other hand a single squad of mediocre Valkyries will probably see dozens of deployments and hundreds of dead Honkai and Zombies, each, if they have a quiet career.

From cost effectiveness, Valks just beat mechs hands down.
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I mean it also depends as we got to consider how much it costs to train and feed a valkyrie .
I mean a marine is what 45k? And a officer is 350 k for training , with less training time then some valks have .
 
Scia said:
I mean it also depends as we got to consider how much it costs to train and feed a valkyrie .
I mean a marine is what 45k? And a officer is 350 k for training , with less training time then some valks have .
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And a single cruise missile costs 2 million in the modern day.

Do you really want to try guessing at how much a single mech costs? Nevermind the quantity they need to be deployed in on a regular basis to be effective.

Single digit deployments before they break down, even focusing the upmost possible on making them as robust as possible and cheap as possible after, and double digit kills at best is many times worse than even a single, mediocre Valk would have.
 
Pale Wolf said:
I'm not sure if that's the official uniform, or if Louis just dressed like that out of choice.
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I recall other Valkyries being dressed like that as well, which is why it stuck in my memory, since it was like - "oh, impractical female uniform, big surp- wait, that's a dude and he's wearing the same thing."

Pale Wolf said:
They have their uses (for one you don't actually need Valkyries to operate them so if you don't have a honkai-tolerant population to work with...), but in terms of mainline usage it's pouring money into a bonfire relative to using Valkyries. Granted, it's not an ethical minefield like Valkyries are.
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Whaaaaaat, are you suggesting that Shicksal would be involved in unethical behaviour? Never. Not in a million years.
 
ShadowAngelBeta said:
And a single cruise missile costs 2 million in the modern day.

Do you really want to try guessing at how much a single mech costs? Nevermind the quantity they need to be deployed in on a regular basis to be effective.

Single digit deployments before they break down, even focusing the upmost possible on making them as robust as possible and cheap as possible after, and double digit kills at best is many times worse than even a single, mediocre Valk would have.
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Yeah but it's the difference between "cheaper then mechs " and "cheap and not nattering. "
 
Who? said:
Whaaaaaat, are you suggesting that Shicksal would be involved in unethical behaviour? Never. Not in a million years.
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Thinking on it its actually surprising how little abuse they carry out considering they basically have all but actual control of the globe. You got AE, which is basically just short of being a terrorist organization sometimes, and the Academy, which is like an uppity (but effective) sub-group more than anything, as competitors for the most part.

Well until the latest chapter anyway.

Shicksal could do some really horrible things if they wanted to honestly and they stick mostly to
]cloning, a bit of kidnapping, a bit of genetic engineering, and a tiny side of mind control (was Black Nucleus Bronya them or someone else? I know it was that one lady who actually did it, but I don't remember who was backing her. K413 could be considered mind control as well I suppose since it appears she got Kiana's memories (or was she just made to believe she was Kiana by Kiana's dad on accident?) and then Siren with her second awakening.

Pretty bad, but its like all individual level stuff.
Scia said:
Yeah but it's the difference between "cheaper then mechs " and "cheap and not nattering. "
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*Stares and tilts head* ... Rephrase please? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
 
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ShadowAngelBeta said:
Thinking on it its actually surprising how little abuse they carry out considering they basically have all but

Pretty bad, but its like all individual level stuff.[/spoiler]

*Stares and tilts head* ... Rephrase please? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
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Basically some of the word choices of yours implied a attitude towards valks that was sounding a bit like "fire and forget we got enough spares and they cost nothing ".
Versus I would argue "they are much cheaper over their lifetime , but are still a investment of money and especially time."
 
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Seeing Rin teaching at cram school is honestly both appropriate and hilarious. Laying on THE TSUNDERE A BIT THICK TO START, aren't you Tohsaka!? Truly Shirou just has a way with words.

[X] His class president.
Fu Hua? 👀
 
ShadowAngelBeta said:
Its what Kallen's Ritual suit wears as well under the armor flaps (I think) and her thing was being a newbie at the school or something in her event/paralogue thing.
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Tbh I think those are just her panties. She is wearing very little on the lower half of her body in Ritual Imayoh and that skirt does not cover a lot.

K413 could be considered mind control as well I suppose since it appears she got Kiana's memories (or was she just made to believe she was Kiana by Kiana's dad on accident?)
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K-423 has no memories from before she was nine years old - so that's probably about when she was decanted. (Siegfried told her she hit her head, but...)

He didn't really accidentally make her believe she was Kiana, he straight-up told her she was his daughter, though he was a complete emotional disaster so he didn't actually, like, parent, or give her a name, for two years. It's... open to guessing on why he named her Kiana since he fully knew the original was still left in Otto's custody, but he gave her the name very deliberately.

Pretty bad, but its like all individual level stuff.
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I mean, pre-Otto there's violent conquest and attempts at, scalping the populace, generalized tyranny, etc etc. And some seriously questionable means of handling even the things they're actually supposed to be doing, they literally tried to suppress the Black Plague through pure slaughter and tyranny. (Kill all the victims and it can't spread! They only started looking for a cure after that failed) Plus pleeenty of unethical experimentation, and given how things work in Honkworld, sometimes 'unethical experimentation' isn't too distinct from 'Satanic ritual'.

And post-Otto they've doubled down on the unethical experimentation and courting the apocalypse and tbh once you court the apocalypse I think it starts counting pretty high.

Despite which, the post-Otto Schicksal is probably the ethically reformed version compared to medieval Schicksal.
 
ShadowAngelBeta said:
]cloning, a bit of kidnapping, a bit of genetic engineering, and a tiny side of mind control (was Black Nucleus Bronya them or someone else? I know it was that one lady who actually did it, but I don't remember who was backing her. K413 could be considered mind control as well I suppose since it appears she got Kiana's memories (or was she just made to believe she was Kiana by Kiana's dad on accident?) and then Siren with her second awakening.

Pretty bad, but its like all individual level stuff.
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Bronya was Cocolia. The betrayal of trust involved is why the two are now... estranged, to put it kindly.

As for Schicksal, I would remind you of the mass human experimentation on children that directly led into the Second Herrscher, and the experiments with the Box that led into Sakura's corruption - Otto-led, yes, but Schicksal-sanctioned unless my memory fails me. I also seem to recall some worrying stuff from Hellheim Labs, but that one's been a while. My point being, Schicksal has its fair share of black marks on its record. There's a reason the North American branch broke off and formed Anti-Entropy, after all.

Faux-edit: Also all the stuff @Pale Wolf ninja'd in with, yes.
 
The Phosdjinns at the West Asia branch also had pretty nontypical uniforms as well as the Snowwolves. It may either have been a recent thing or OOC-wise it's easier on the artists to reuse uniforms than designing new outfits for characters that appear in only a few panels at most.


New St. Freya also doesn't seem to follow a strict uniform for its students too fwiw.

 
Uniform wise, you can aways look at the immortal blade enemies you fight in chapter 13
 
Scia said:
Basically some of the word choices of yours implied a attitude towards valks that was sounding a bit like "fire and forget we got enough spares and they cost nothing ".
Versus I would argue "they are much cheaper over their lifetime , but are still a investment of money and especially time."
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That's kind of my attitude towards both because that's the reality of the situation honestly. Herrscher's showing up is an extinction level event and they drag a new wave of Honkai to poison the planet with them every time they manifest.

I mentioned a spoilery scene before about Void's awakening that we see in the game and one of the mechs outright jumps in to save a junior valk. The fact is Valks and mechs both are soldiers that are almost certain to die in the line of duty once they sign up.

So its not fire and forget so much as, as I said before, cost-effectiveness.

A general knows not all of his men will come back home, its part of his job to get as many of them as he can home and make sure the lives of the ones who don't are well spent.

That its all of humanity fighting a war of survival put a bad twist onto that though.
Pale Wolf said:
And post-Otto they've doubled down on the unethical experimentation and courting the apocalypse and tbh once you court the apocalypse I think it starts counting pretty high.

Despite which, the post-Otto Schicksal is probably the ethically reformed version compared to medieval Schicksal.
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Interested Party said:
As for Schicksal, I would remind you of the mass human experimentation on children that directly led into the Second Herrscher, and the experiments with the Box that led into Sakura's corruption - Otto-led, yes, but Schicksal-sanctioned unless my memory fails me. I also seem to recall some worrying stuff from Hellheim Labs, but that one's been a while. My point being, Schicksal has its fair share of black marks on its record. There's a reason the North American branch broke off and formed Anti-Entropy, after all.

Faux-edit: Also all the stuff @Pale Wolf ninja'd in with, yes.
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Didn't know about pre-otto Schicksal stuff honestly.

Also Otto is basically a Yandere in control of a world power. I thought he was the only one trying to court Death in order to bring her back?

And I'm not saying they don't have black marks, I just didn't know or remember most of the stuff you pointed out. And... some of it still seems pretty light by "We can literally get away with basically anything we want" levels of power and not abusing it.

The black plague thing stands out, but I honestly wouldn't put that past, say, Rome if it had been in power still at that time. I don't remember what technological development was like at all though, so maybe they did have the medical tech to solve it?
 
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ShadowAngelBeta said:
Didn't know about pre-otto Schicksal stuff honestly.

Also Otto is basically a Yandere in control of a world power. I thought he was the only one trying to court Death in order to bring her back?

And I'm not saying they don't have black marks, I just didn't know or remember most of the stuff you pointed out. And... some of it still seems pretty light by "We can literally get away with basically anything we want" levels of power and not abusing it.

The black plague thing stands out, but I honestly wouldn't put that past, say, Rome if it had been in power still at that time. I don't remember what technological development was like at all though, so maybe they did have the medical tech to solve it?
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I think he's the only one who knows about that. The rest of Schicksal (speaking of the organization generally) just follows his orders to do what he needs to complete those steps and work towards his goal. Even when those steps are monstrous. See again Second Impact - the researchers might not have known Otto was angling to make the next Herrscher through the experimentation on and resulting murder of children, but they still did it. That's still on Schicksal's hands, not Otto's alone.

Also, you do realize that "not as completely monstrous and horrifying as they have the potential ability to be" and "others could also be that bad given the opportunity" are not equal to "alright" or "good", right? Just because they don't commit every abuse they could possibly commit, doesn't mean they aren't abusive.
 
Interested Party said:
I think he's the only one who knows about that. The rest of Schicksal (speaking of the organization generally) just follows his orders to do what he needs to complete those steps and work towards his goal. Even when those steps are monstrous. See again Second Impact - the researchers might not have known Otto was angling to make the next Herrscher through the experimentation on and resulting murder of children, but they still did it. That's still on Schicksal's hands, not Otto's alone.

Also, you do realize that "not as completely monstrous and horrifying as they have the potential ability to be" and "others could also be that bad given the opportunity" are not equal to "alright" or "good", right? Just because they don't commit every abuse they could possibly commit, doesn't mean they aren't abusive.
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Well yeah, but I was more talking about them relative to not just what they could do, but what you'd be expecting them to be doing.

Though the child experimentation does tip them over the latter line.
 
Pale Wolf said:
it's out of character for rin to always have all the angles covered so she doesn't outsmart herself
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To be fair to Rin, her canon depiction in original Fate was that she's too perfect. She never had to learn how to deal with uncertainties and failure because Tohsaka Rin Does Not Fail. So she covers every angle she can think of, and efficiently solves for the situation she knows about, this works for 99% of cases and then gets stabbed in the back in the 1% because one of the things she thinks she knows, she doesn't really, and she's committed all her resources into the other case already.

Her rear is undefended basically.
 
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