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Exclusion (PMMM AU / MTG)

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Nixeu said:
Wait, hold the phone. Is this basically saying we can keep the Constructs around long enough that our allies would be recovered enough for another Convoke? Just how long can the Constructs last?
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It is me explicitly saying they won't last that long and that there isn't a way to game them into doing so. Constructs are "damaged" both over time and when they're "injured." :p
 
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Alivaril said:
Using Convoke for Titanic Growth (considering renaming that since even I'm getting confused already) will always be a net loss. Using it for Rapid growth will slowly yield a net gain (temporary bonus vs. permanent one), but since Convoke effectively siphons off the mana reserves plants would reserve for lean periods, they have the potential to suffer more from droughts, loss of nutrients, injuries, and disease. In other words, once you pick up a Convoke project, don't stop monitoring it until a week or two after you've stopped using Convoke on it.
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Sounds like HH comes out ahead in regards to generating mana, so long as there's a pool of mana mages or MGs to draw upon. (Which makes sense from a balancing perspective; HH is stationary and easier to destroy, while Convoke can be used anywhere and doubles as a means of attack.)

Alivaril said:
Yeah, I've been thinking about it and was about to post an announcement (you ninja, you). Specifically, I'm removing Summer Raiment as an option and am just going to give you a weakened Summer Raiment as a bonus spell. I don't like how all the others would have a significant impact on approaches while Summer Raiment just lets you keep doing what you'd keep doing anyway.
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Higher mana lands now grant the PC stronger armor? HH and Convoke are looking even more appealing. HH in particular, imo.

To those revising their votes: one of the nice things about preference voting is you can remove an option without affecting the final tally. The previous votes still work.
 
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Sapient_Ham said:
Sounds like HH comes out ahead in regards to generating mana, so long as there's a pool of mana mages or MGs to draw upon. (Which makes sense from a balancing perspective; HH is stationary and easier to destroy, while Convoke can be used anywhere and doubles as a means of attack.)
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If used aggressively, Convoke has an advantage early on while they're about equal later in the ramp.


Sapient_Ham said:
Higher mana lands now grants the PC stronger armor? HH and Convoke are looking even more appealing. HH in particular, imo.
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For the version you'll be getting, HH and Convoke do not affect the "production" of a land. Otherwise, you could have something as ridiculous as almost impenetrable armor the weekend of a Magical Girl convention followed by puny plate mail after it.
 
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Sapient_Ham said:
HH in particular, imo.
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Hmmm. Sort of?
Alivaril said:
Humans sleeping or spending most of their time within a Hallowed Haven will passively generate Green/White mana, adding it to the standard mana generation for whichever land the Hallowed Haven is on.
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I doubt we'll find many magical girls that're living on lands that can already produce multiple G.

Alivaril said:
You can conjure magical armor for yourself that scales in protective ability based on how much Green mana is generated by lands within your range (spent and unspent). To your vague amusement, once you exceed a given coverage threshold, Summer Raiment still seems to guard you even if you leave significant parts of your body (such as your head) uncovered. You think your "range" will include lands you can pull on once you understand the basics of Harvest, or the gift of tapping nearby lands.
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Do our family's synthetic gems allow lands to contribute to this?

Alivaril said:
Using it for Rapid growth will slowly yield a net gain (temporary bonus vs. permanent one),
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How slow is this? For example, the MC currently estimates that it'd take her about a month to increase the production of Central Park to the point where her family could bind a gem to it. How much would that estimate change if we took Convoke?



edit: Oop, ninjad.
 
Vebyast said:
How slow is this? For example, the MC currently estimates that it'd take her about a month to increase the production of Central Park to the point where her family could bind a gem to it. How much would that estimate change if we took Convoke?
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At a guess, you'd see something like a 20-50% speed increase (going by your current reserves and assuming you only pull from pets + plants) or faster.

Let me put it another way: If you get it, it's worth using Convoke to help plants along, especially since you'll often be tapping plants you aren't cultivating at the moment to improve others.

Vebyast said:
Do our family's synthetic gems allow lands to contribute to this?
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No(t yet).
 
Hmm.

@Alivaril: Say we cover a meaningfully sized region with HH, a few city blocks or a district. Does this entirely prevent magical girls from hunting in that area?
 
[1] Convoke
[2] Soul Stone
[3] Hallowed Haven
[4] Knight's Oath

Nixeu said:
Not really? Dragons are usually Red and typically have lairs, and there's at least one Red card that's rather famous for the territorial nature of the Minotaur it depicts (the one where there's a long description of someone's travel plans to avoid said minotaur's territory). Red isn't really anti-creating things, otherwise the Izzet wouldn't be so focused on making stuff. And Black creatures also create bases and lairs. Having a villainous secret lair or place of power is a very common thing with Black mages, and especially Black cults.

Overall, when thinking about it, base creation isn't something exclusive to any given color, they just all do it a bit differently. I think you're confusing having a base or home or lair, and Red and Black's tendencies towards anarchy and independence. They aren't really the same thing.
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I'm stating descriptively, not prescriptively.
Everyone uses bases, but Green and White would be playing significantly counter to their natural advantages without one, while Red and Black significantly benefit from being able to move away from the consequences of their actions.

Sapient_Ham said:
If Convoke exhausts animals, what do you think happens to plants? At a guess, they either wilt slightly, or grow slower. Essentially, Convoke saps vitality, but not to a degree that causes lasting damage. My point was that using Convoke to power Rapid/Titanic Growth should lower net vitality if the mana donator and recipient are the same organism, because otherwise this trick could be used to generate infinite growth/mana. No way Alivaril would allow something like that.

While Convoke can be used to boost Green economy, I'm betting it mostly works by tapping 'external' sources that normally wouldn't contribute much to a land's Green mote production—people and animals. However, this still exhausts them, and the resulting growth needs quite a bit of space, so it doesn't scale the way HH does.
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Well, the environmental mana generation is from the general leakage from whatever the inhabitants aren't using. Thats why it takes either a large area or a lot of residents to generate a mote of mana, while one squad of elves can generate a mote of green by exhausting their ability to do anything else.

Convoking then, is the lifeform offering up the energy its actually using to move, think and fight, as mana directly. The advantage is it makes a lot of power, the disadvantage is that they're still drained from giving up that energy while tapping a land doesn't even produce a noticable blip
 
Alivaril said:
If used aggressively, Convoke has an advantage early on while they're about equal later in the ramp.
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That's...kinda surprising. I guess combining defense and mana generation is pretty powerful, though. And it kinda makes sense that the dedicated mana generation spell nets us more mana at first, and about the same later. In theory, that skews towards HH in the long run, since we get the same amount of mana and defensive options. I'll still take the broader scope of Convoke over the defensive advantage, though.
veekie said:
I'm stating descriptively, not prescriptively.
Everyone uses bases, but Green and White would be playing significantly counter to their natural advantages without one, while Red and Black significantly benefit from being able to move away from the consequences of their actions.
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Ah. Yeah, that makes sense.
 
Mellithae said:
What if an MG witched inside the area?
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You're pretty confident they'd leave the area in short order. Even the Witches with natures like fearful violently lash out at the world around them; who can blame them when their souls are overflowing with solidified negative emotion? They wouldn't be comfortable someplace that forced them to behave.
 
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Alivaril said:
...From a certain point of view? There wouldn't be any Witches in that area, so there wouldn't be any MGs hunting in it.
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I guess that's an offensive strategy for geopolitical conflicts, then - we can just make it more and more difficult for magical girls to inhabit an area by forcing out the witch population. Not, uh, not exactly the nicest strategy. Bleh. I'm not sure we have a solution for cleansing. Though...
Alivaril said:
...Raise the dead as free-willed ghosts, provided they didn't turn into Witches and you get to them within about ten minutes...
(Ability Known: Dearly Departed [Rank 2])​
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...Are these the same ghosts that the Soulstone provides? If so, that's a hilarious albeit morbid solution for saving magical girls: Rez them as non-griefy ghosts.

@Alivaril Would the ghost of a magical girl count for Hallowed Haven?
 
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Vebyast said:
...Are these the same ghosts that the Soulstone provides? If so, that's a hilarious albeit morbid solution for saving magical girls: Smash their soul gems and rez them as non-griefy ghosts.

@Alivaril Would the ghost of a magical girl count for Hallowed Haven?
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Yes, they're the same ghosts. Soulstone simply removes the limited timer/body (currently need to reach their corpse within about 10 mins of death) requirements you'd have on ghost resurrection, provided you gave them a Soulstone shard while they were still alive. Instead, you don't need their bodies and have as much time as you need to raise them.

As mentioned in the description, people have to be alive to generate mana via HH. :p
 
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[2] Convoke
[4] Soulstone
[1] Hallowed Haven
[3] Knight's Oath
 
Alivaril said:
You're pretty confident they'd leave the area in short order. Even the Witches with natures like fearful violently lash out at the world around them; who can blame them when their souls are overflowing with solidified negative emotion? They wouldn't be comfortable someplace that forced them to behave.
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Police wouldn't be able to arrest a criminal inside a Haven either, would they? Until we can also prevent drug dealing, theft, and similar stuff, that might cause the police to be somewhat annoyed with us.
 
Gnarker said:
Police wouldn't be able to arrest a criminal inside a Haven either, would they? Until we can also prevent drug dealing, theft, and similar stuff, that might cause the police to be somewhat annoyed with us.
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You can still perform harmful acts in the name of non-violent order. If you can perform surgery, you can definitely arrest someone, and it's not like they could resist.
 
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