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Even Further Beyond [Complete]

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Deathbybunnies said:
What do you think going from Beyond to FB will do, or FB to EFB, if not give us the opportunity to implement this?
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What evidence do we have of being capable of modifying the effects of the Vault after deciding and implementing it?
Rask said:
Then we use what we learned from studying it to replicate it the normal way. Or we improve our Cultivation techniques from the deep insights we gained from studying an effect that can suppress existing Cultivation progress.
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Assuming we can make Artifacts to replicate the effects is shaky. Possible, I admit, but not a certainty, and I'm not one hundred percent sure on wanting to take that bet.

Also, to anyone calling visiting the Elves a poor decision, remember that we will FINALLY learn about Naturalism from them.
 
Random musings regarding the Tomb

  • Tomb of the Netherine - Netherine can be taken as "those who are from bellow", implying that race that built the Tomb is subterranean in nature. Mole men, perhaps. Alternatively, name could imply that Tomb itself likes to burrow, which could explain how it manages to move around without people noticing. Or maybe, "those who come from bellow" are some kind of extradimensional horrors?
  • It's very interesting that Tomb managed to defeat a GS level opponent. Simply put, that shouldn't have had happened. At all. GS should be well above anything from previous ages. There are few possible explanations to this - we know that Cultivators are not as resistant to mental attacks, although expecting danger to be something we are already almost immune to would be silly. They might be some sort of dimensional fuckery going around, as that's sort of hax we didn't exactly see around, so it might be effective against Cultivators? Or maybe it's offensive version of Bleak Procession, causing Cultivator's own Inner World to burst out, rending them in process - maybe reality within Tomb is lesser, thus causing greater pressure to be applied on Ego Barrier by Cultivators own greater reality?
  • Or, it could be that something overpowered GS level opponent? Someone already mentioned possibility of Tomb itself being created for a Divinity - i'd like to take that step beyond. We know that Fates didn't kill all other Divinities at the same time, so it could be possible that Tomb was created by another Divinity for fallen he loved. It is possible that Divine tier measures could overpower even a GS, to say nothing of possibility of Divine specter lurking around.
  • Going back to dimensional fuckery theory, it's interesting to note that Bleak Procession includes becoming one with shadows - maybe there's a link there?
  • Why is dungeon moving around? Or rather, why would you make dungeon that is randomly moving around? Perhaps it was moving museum, now wandering aimlessly without controller to give it direction? Perhaps it doesn't actually move for it's creators, our geometry having little with how they perceive the world?
 
Look, if the Tomb turns out to be useless, we just - fuck off. We don't have to spend months in there if there's nothing interesting for us to research/loot/kill.

That said, I highly doubt that is the case. Not only does this dungeon hail from far antiquity, it has also survived until now after countless Ages while killing off the majority of its visitors. It is built well enough that it can negate the revolutionary Cultivation Arts made by combining the magics of the previous Ages, which its constructors should have had no way of knowing about. If that doesn't scream 'important plot hook', then I don't know what would.
 
I mean, that it survived overpowered might of Cultivators and endless utility and ton of dumb divination spells of Diagram tells us volumes about how stupidly well defended that place is.

That shouldn't be a thing. And yet, there it is.
 
Unelemental said:
Look, if the Tomb turns out to be useless, we just - fuck off. We don't have to spend months in there if there's nothing interesting for us to research/loot/kill.

That said, I highly doubt that is the case. Not only does this dungeon hail from far antiquity, it has also survived until now after countless Ages while killing off the majority of its visitors. It is built well enough that it can negate the revolutionary Cultivation Arts made by combining the magics of the previous Ages, which its constructors should have had no way of knowing about. If that doesn't scream 'important plot hook', then I don't know what would.
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...That's actually an excellent point. How the fuck does this thing have explicit anti-Cultivation measures when its designers knew nothing about Cultivation? Either the builders could see the future - multiple Ages into the future, which I think is beyond the Fates - or whatever's in there is just that nuts.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
...That's actually an excellent point. How the fuck does this thing have explicit anti-Cultivation measures when its designers knew nothing about Cultivation? Either the builders could see the future - multiple Ages into the future, which I think is beyond the Fates - or whatever's in there is just that nuts.
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Well, if Cultivation is the magics of past Ages interacting, then it would only take suppressing one of the cornerstone ancient magics to make the entire house of cards fall.

Or there is simply no such negation effect, and the danger is something along the lines of an angry imprisoned elder god.
 
Part museum, part mausoleum, this relic of a bygone Age was crafted by a species that was ancient when the Diagram was still young
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Now, this wording is very interesting. This implies that race that built it existed when Diagram did - and the way Diagram works, it would mean that it would be something for it to consume. We know three races that got destroyed by Diagram magi, so it could be that this is source of Fourth Ascendant Diagram? But, if that was the case, Diagram magi should have hate very little trouble dealing with it.

So it could be that it's builders are not relying on outward magic. Maybe they had their own version of inner magic, Cultivation before Cultivation; maybe they used some sort of alien technology or elf-like ability to affect the world in way that isn't quite magic.
 
Mhm, we can ask the Heroine about it! Surely, she will tell us something!
 
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Wolfy said:
Now, this wording is very interesting. This implies that race that built it existed when Diagram did - and the way Diagram works, it would mean that it would be something for it to consume. We know three races that got destroyed by Diagram magi, so it could be that this is source of Fourth Ascendant Diagram? But, if that was the case, Diagram magi should have hate very little trouble dealing with it.

So it could be that it's builders are not relying on outward magic. Maybe they had their own version of inner magic, Cultivation before Cultivation; maybe they used some sort of alien technology or elf-like ability to affect the world in way that isn't quite magic.
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Not necessarily Diagram's contemporaries. It could also mean that they were already ancient history when the Diagram emerged. After all, it is said to contain 'secrets of a world endlessly eroded by the Fates', and I don't think the passing of one or two Ages fits this description.

Edit: Or maybe the Diagram's predecessors discovered those secrets and put them in the Tomb? The flowery descriptions are awesome, but they're kinda hard to interpret sometimes.
 
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A monster spawning Vault seems either worthless or worse than worthless.

We need the Vault to give us strategic depth. We need it to be a world of its own where we can make our own Fate.

[X] Vault of the Ur-Pharaoh
-[X] Go Further Beyond
[X] Journey to the West
 
Wolfy said:
Now, this wording is very interesting. This implies that race that built it existed when Diagram did - and the way Diagram works, it would mean that it would be something for it to consume. We know three races that got destroyed by Diagram magi, so it could be that this is source of Fourth Ascendant Diagram? But, if that was the case, Diagram magi should have hate very little trouble dealing with it.

So it could be that it's builders are not relying on outward magic. Maybe they had their own version of inner magic, Cultivation before Cultivation; maybe they used some sort of alien technology or elf-like ability to affect the world in way that isn't quite magic.
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Hmmm... the school of the Diagram is apparently unparalleled at countering other external schools of magic - that's how they beat the others. Maybe what was in there was simultaneously not so useful for the Diagram and too much of a pain to actually deal with?

Also, it occurs to me that if the "Bleak Procession" is referring to the ongoing Cycle of the Ages, this might give us some pretty excellent insights into how the Fates work. If there's information about how previous Ages fell, then that means there's also information about how the Heroes won! This may actually be a goldmine in terms of seeing what gambits previous Overlords attempted, seeing what worked and what didn't - and what our reincarnated Heroine likes to rely on, and what she's not so good at dealing with.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
...That's actually an excellent point. How the fuck does this thing have explicit anti-Cultivation measures when its designers knew nothing about Cultivation? Either the builders could see the future - multiple Ages into the future, which I think is beyond the Fates - or whatever's in there is just that nuts.
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Most of Cultivation's power, by what we've seen so far, seems to exploit the border of reality to accumulate Yin-Yang Power. If something were naturally equipped to slide between realities, or had a backdoor into the human psyche... Well, the insight's already been brought forward that Cultivators are one and all weak to mental attacks. Perhaps the lower levels are near an artificial worldly border, and the flood of Yin-Yang Power ruins the soul pressure balance that gives a Cultivator his strength?

This is the kind of stuff we have to consider, when dungeon-delving the Tomb of the Netherine.

I'm still sad that literally no one voted for the Golem. Come on guys - think of the Iron Man references! We could teach it to talk, and have an orichalcum Jarvis!
 
[X] Tomb of the Netherine

Best option for finding something outside Zang Kong's knowledge. Not sure about the spell we should choose yet, only that It's probably a choice between the the immediate benefit of 2.2x Cultivation bonus of Elder Beast and the long term utility of a Vault. As Netherine is an attempt to find more Cultivation boosts and I think the Thread would be less compelled to put BP in it, thereby saving for EFBs, I lean slightly towards Palimpsest. The investment we already made in Suizhen for farming makes me hesitate, however. Palimpsest would double our Artifact production too, something we kind of need to augement ourselves, while the Vault would need a whole new Artifact to reach exploitable capabilities. I think that being unable to FB and EFB Vault contains the silver lining that it is one less thing we'd spend BP on, and we are short on them as it is. However, all the things we could do with a FB vault look sweet as hell...

Once again, I can't hold this. Will vote for spell later, when my mind is more made up.
 
Box Lunch said:
Most of Cultivation's power, by what we've seen so far, seems to exploit the border of reality to accumulate Yin-Yang Power. If something were naturally equipped to slide between realities, or had a backdoor into the human psyche... Well, the insight's already been brought forward that Cultivators are one and all weak to mental attacks. Perhaps the lower levels are near an artificial worldly border, and the flood of Yin-Yang Power ruins the soul pressure balance that gives a Cultivator his strength?

This is the kind of stuff we have to consider, when dungeon-delving the Tomb of the Netherine.
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That was one supposition, but it is not necessarily true, just one of our guesses for what Art the new Age could introduce to supplant Cultivation. That was before we learned about Zang Kong and how truly overpowered Cultivation is, of course, so the normal rules don't necessarily apply anymore.

Given that using one of the greatest Diagram mind-control spells to affect Cultivators at high levels requires the caster to be a Cultivator himself (normally impossible) and preferably (Even) Further Beyonding it to be of use, Cultivation's 'weakness' against mental attacks is quite questionable. Frankly, as an Art that has an explicit 'Ego Barrier' which protects against mental intrusions, it is probably has stronger mental defenses than other magics.

As for the 'border' theory... dunno. From my impression, Cultivation draws energy by creating an isolated mini-universe, which apparently produce the Energy of All and Nothing simply by existing. It's possible to overpower that barrier, but it's not something I would call negation.
 
Box Lunch said:
Most of Cultivation's power, by what we've seen so far, seems to exploit the border of reality to accumulate Yin-Yang Power. If something were naturally equipped to slide between realities, or had a backdoor into the human psyche... Well, the insight's already been brought forward that Cultivators are one and all weak to mental attacks. Perhaps the lower levels are near an artificial worldly border, and the flood of Yin-Yang Power ruins the soul pressure balance that gives a Cultivator his strength?

This is the kind of stuff we have to consider, when dungeon-delving the Tomb of the Netherine.

I'm still sad that literally no one voted for the Golem. Come on guys - think of the Iron Man references! We could teach it to talk, and have an orichalcum Jarvis!
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I like the theory of "reality pressure". Think how your ears hurt when you get down the mountain. Ego Barrier separates two realities, and different "quality" of each cause pressure on Ego Barrier as higher concentration reality tries to pour in, or out. If Cultivator tried to visit area with different concentration that what's standard for Labyrinth Empire, it's possible that it would create increase in "realty pressure" applied to the Ego Barrier, causing it to burst. In particular, if Tomb has lower reality concentration, Cultivator could rend their own Barrier with their Cultivation energies.

Indeed, it could be that the reason why Bleak Procession doesn't work is because it was made for different environment. Although, i don't think that this will be a thing, it just sounds fun.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
I'm referring to the explicit mechanic where dangerous adventuring gives us 1 MM per month, instead of 1 per 6. Do we have a WOG to show that politicking does the same, or did you just make that up?
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There are other challenges that proc Deliberation per WoG:
Rihaku said:
You can find non-combat challenges to activate Deliberation as well!

Such as scamming people, or trying to negotiate a peace between the Empire and the Elves.
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Deathbybunnies said:
I'm referring to the explicit mechanic where dangerous adventuring gives us 1 MM per month, instead of 1 per 6. Do we have a WOG to show that politicking does the same, or did you just make that up?
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Not dangerous adventuring per say. That's just the easiest way to get the one per month. It's been stated before making Peace with Elves is mentally straining and stimulating enough for MP.
 
No pure elf waifus. Please, for the love of the Accursed. I can take build votes or waifu wars, but not both.

[X] Tomb of the Netherine

More shiny EFB options that we can't afford. Should've just picked Externalize, then we wouldn't have yet another fucking BP sink. Protector looked cool to me, but that's one bandwagon that isn't changing course, so just gonna vote Tomb and ignore Liminal. Shame about Center, be nice to know what's up with this Winter Labyrinth shit. A mystery box is fine too, though.
 
Unelemental said:
There are other challenges that proc Deliberation per WoG:
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DarkKing98 said:
Not dangerous adventuring per say. That's just the easiest way to get the one per month. It's been stated before making Peace with Elves is mentally straining and stimulating enough for MP.
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Neat! I'd still prefer to go with Netherine for a variety of reasons, but I concede MM generation may not be one of them.
Well, except that this is the last chance to get MMs through adventuring, whilst the Elven situation isn't going away in the meantime. In fact, if we go Netherine => Elves, we might feasibly get enough for Truth!
 
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