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Even Further Beyond [Complete]

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Conjured Blade said:
Any spells we're willing to reject to reduce temptation to go beyond on for truths sake? If we reject 1 we may be able to get out before the attack.

[x]Accept Tyranshal's Proposal
-[x]Reject Tyranshal's Vitrification
[x]Don't inform the Bleak Ravens
[x]Bring Xiaoling and Suizhen
[x]Go Beyond Tyranshal's Extirpation
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It's more that he's giving us all his notes, we're just picking which ones Nameless will learn on his lonesome.

Anyway, I would point out one hidden benefit for spending a Beyond Point--in virtually every circumstance we've seen it, spending a BP accelerates Mastery of the spell as well as improving its effects. It gives us a much better chance of getting out before the hammer falls--and even if it doesn't--you never know what a grateful Sage might do to give you a boon when you've shown that you're better and wiser than he thought you to be.

And yes, even if we can only get that Cultivation Boost at 2x out of this, we will have profited in time from this endeavor.
 
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Exter said:
So what does us speaking in blue actually mean? And this liches gray? How was our Second able to hear that we spoke in blue?
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Anyone can hear that you're speaking in blue. As for what it means... perhaps it just reminds you of teachers past.

Corripere said:
[X] Accept Tyranshal's Proposal
[X] Inform the Bleak Ravens
[X] Don't Go Beyond
[X] Send Lackeys Away

Truth at any cost. Don't falter now: the world will demand much of us, and we must be ready to sacrifice.
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But you're going to be spending all your Beyond Points next spell vote anyway! It is inevitable... it is your destiny.

Conjured Blade said:
Any spells we're willing to reject to reduce temptation to go beyond on for truths sake? If we reject 1 we may be able to get out before the attack.

[x]Accept Tyranshal's Proposal
-[x]Reject Tyranshal's Vitrification
[x]Don't inform the Bleak Ravens
[x]Bring Xiaoling and Suizhen
[x]Go Beyond Tyranshal's Extirpation
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Well, the only other spells you could reject are Amplification and Cerebration, which are both very high-power. Vitrification is too, for a Sigil. Imagine what it could do if you go Beyond!
 
A somewhat rushed evaluation of today's options.

[ ] Accept Tyranshal's Proposal
Costs three months, the Essence Grand Diagram, and a week per spell chosen. Given that he foresees his doom in three months, it's likely the other Liches are on a similar schedule and he's the last one we can meet if we accept.

[ ] Decline
Option states we can likely self-initiate into Essence and develop the spells he knows by ourselves. Doesn't cost a Grand Essence Diagram, costs more time.



[ ] Inform the Bleak Ravens
It would probably be good if the Ravens were around to defend the pocket dimension so we can loot it when Tyranshal goes away.


[ ] Don't Tell the Ravens
Not our problem, but may become our problem if the Vault is attacked while we are doing research inside.

[ ] Go Beyond Tyranshal's Extirpation [1 Beyond Point]
This is probably something that determines Nameless' future character. No other benefits should be expected from it. (Something derived from its principles might make for an excellent spying method, though!)

[ ] Don't Go Beyond

[ ] Bring Xiaoling and Suizhen
Not sure if Tyranshal should be allowed to share his views with Suizhen.

[ ] Send Lackeys Away
Fringe benefits, chance of Spoiled trigger?
 
Wolfy said:
I can't help a feeling that this whole situation was entirely inefficient.

Anyway, our Ring allows us to use spell wherever, so it might be possible for us to develop spells in darkness beyond if we do use Expiration. That means that we can get back, possibly.
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The most important thing is to make sure that you're counted as wearing the Ring, something that can be difficult to arrange when one resides in a realm literally beyond space and time.

Alectai said:
It's more that he's giving us all his notes, we're just picking which ones Nameless will learn on his lonesome.

Anyway, I would point out one hidden benefit for spending a Beyond Point--in virtually every circumstance we've seen it, spending a BP accelerates Mastery of the spell as well as improving its effects. It gives us a much better chance of getting out before the hammer falls--and even if it doesn't--you never know what a grateful Sage might do to give you a boon when you've shown that you're better and wiser than he thought you to be.

And yes, even if we can only get that Cultivation Boost at 2x out of this, we will have profited in time from this endeavor.
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In this case, Going Beyond uses up that extra time and effort to develop the Diagram further. It's not easy turning Banish Unto the Outer Darkness into Create Untouchable Observer, after all!
 
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Alectai said:
It's more that he's giving us all his notes, we're just picking which ones Nameless will learn on his lonesome.

Anyway, I would point out one hidden benefit for spending a Beyond Point--in virtually every circumstance we've seen it, spending a BP accelerates Mastery of the spell as well as improving its effects. It gives us a much better chance of getting out before the hammer falls--and even if it doesn't--you never know what a grateful Sage might do to give you a boon when you've shown that you're better and wiser than he thought you to be.

And yes, even if we can only get that Cultivation Boost at 2x out of this, we will have profited in time from this endeavor.
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At what cost, though? We cannot justify spending 1.2BP on iffy 'gratitude' gifts when there's a spell vote literally next update! We need too much BP for them-- a known, urgent, and important need--to spend points on a spell half of which is useful when we've lost.

I also think this event payed off well. We can unlock Essence without costs, get a Cultivation booster that stacks with quickening, get an amazing strategic divination spell, and get an upgradeable sigil in 4 months. We've also confirmed the Doom is occuring to liches NOW. Our timetable for liches has moved up: by the end of the year, there may not be any left. Good bonuses and a clear near future direction.
 
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Corripere said:
At what cost, though? We cannot justify spending 1.2BP on iffy 'gratitude' gifts when there's a spell vote literally next update! We need too much BP for them-- a known, urgent, and important need--to spend points on a spell half of which is useful when we've lost.
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This looks like a rihaku post.

Not very important, but it made me laugh, and I wanted to share that amusement if I could.
 
[X] Accept Tyranshal's Proposal
[X] Inform the Bleak Ravens
[X] Go Beyond Tyranshal's Extripation
[X] Bring Xiaoling and Suizhen


Well, time to try (and fail) to write an omake in time to help with this vote. Anyone have our current BP count? I'm assuming we're at 1 and change right now.
 
The point about not allowing Suizhen to interact with Tyranshal is well taken.

As is the issue of the time we'll be spending. Though I think Tyranshal's spells are worth it. Amplification is impressive, but Cerebration is the real powerhouse.
 
Blonddude42 said:
[X] Accept Tyranshal's Proposal
[X] Inform the Bleak Ravens
[X] Go Beyond Tyranshal's Extripation
[X] Bring Xiaoling and Suizhen


Well, time to try (and fail) to write an omake in time to help with this vote. Anyone have our current BP count? I'm assuming we're at 1 and change right now.
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You currently have 2 and change BPs. Not that far from 3.
 
The benefit of Ming Xiaoling collecting information for us shouldn't be dismissed.

Even if the liches are all doomed she seems to be very good at picking out rumors, she can probably find a dungeon or something cool for us if we give her time to investigate.

Suizhen should be loyal enough not to wander off.
 
And we need to find the liches before they all disappear in like a year. We require information, and Ming should get us a new lead immediately after.
 
The full time cost of accepting Tyranshal's Proposal is 3 months plus up to 3 increments of 1 to 6 days. 3d6. If we're bringing friends, we may want to sacrifice a spell to ensure we get out before the hammer falls. Also Tyranshal's a bad influence on Suizhen.
 
Mellithae said:
This looks like a rihaku post.

Not very important, but it made me laugh, and I wanted to share that amusement if I could.
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Well, yes, that's the point, Rihaku Posts are always about pointing out the flaws of the winner until people change their minds.

Thing is, we've never yet found ourselves in a position where spending a Beyond Point goes utterly without reward, just from a meta standpoint, there would be no reason for Rihaku to offer for us to spend a Beyond Point on this if it would have no benefits whatsoever. To do otherwise would mean that every Beyond Point expense that he won't quantify the benefits of (Which includes--above others--the Truth that so many people want.) Must be considered suspect for the remainder of the game.

This is very much a choice of being given a bad choice, and finding a New Path out of it--taking an insoluble problem (Tyranshal--like all other Liches, is Doomed), and making it into something that they might actually be able to tolerate--satisfying the Doom but denying the thirsting gods their pound of flesh.

This is--in fact--the kind of tool we can use to give a "Way Out" to many of the less hostile surviving Diagram Liches. A Fate as an impartial observer, capable of witnessing the flow of history at their whim is much better than many that such Doomed figures can expect.

But even without that possible application, and any other possible ways we can weaponize it in some fashion--for fuck's sake, what's the point of having power if you're just going to play up to the stereotypes? What's the point of having power if you're not willing to grant some semblance of peace to an old man just because it'd be hard?

Mercy is a privilege of the Strong--and Fate is not yet our enemy. It would not see such an act of magnanimous mercy go unrewarded, not when its gaze is upon us at this time. We satisfy Tyranshal's Doom--and thus, do its work for it, but we do it in a fashion that sows good karma, which is a big thing in this genre. Might be a way to sweet talk it into allowing us a second Fate Diagram.
 
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[X] Accept Tyranshal's Proposal
[X] Inform the Bleak Ravens
[X] Go Beyond Tyranshal's Extirpation
[X] Bring Xiaoling and Suizhen

It's a roll of the dice, but if we keep Extirpation and we end up on the verge of losing, having a chance to flee beyond the reach of the Divinities is a solid out, and it's entirely possible Tyranshal might be able to help us find a way back to the world. I'd rather have a Grand Diagram of Essence, even if we can't use it on the Heroine. Surely we will encounter at least one thing that we want out of the realm of existence for the foreseeable future in our travels. On top of that, if the cost of unlocking Essence is severe, it'd be foolish to pass up Tyranshal's offer of paying that cost for us. And, as a further incentive to work with him, we can learn Tyranshal's Vitrification and Tyranshal's Cerebration without spending extra time on them. Vitrification, if we can figure out how to make it stick to the heavy hitters, is better than Flesh to Stone, which is a classic high-level mage takedown spell. Being able to just snap our fingers and glass people has two huge benefits; taking down targets almost instantly, yes, but we can do that with Mordant Fire. Vitrification gives us some shock and awe tactics. Then Cerebration can let us answer one question a year even with its drawbacks. Evocation, Conjuration, and Transmutation win skirmishes. Illusion and Enchantment win battles. Divination wins wars.
 
Alectai said:
Thing is, we've never yet found ourselves in a position where spending a Beyond Point goes utterly without reward, just from a meta standpoint, there would be no reason for Rihaku to offer for us to spend a Beyond Point on this if it would have no benefits whatsoever. To do otherwise would mean that every Beyond Point expense that he won't quantify the benefits of (Which includes--above others--the Truth that so many people want.) Must be considered suspect for the remainder of the game.
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False. Rihaku explicitly lays out that this will give us no benefit in the option itself.
 
We can demonstrate our compassion adequately enough by informing the Ravens, rewarding their compliance with salvation. Tyranshal is a Sage, not a saint, and is quite literally asking for this. Nameless' opinion is that the spell will be useless to him, and I'm inclined to trust his judgment on that matter. Going Beyond and refining it out of compassion is well and good, but let's not pretend it's secretly a mysterious box option or test of character that will cause Tyranshal to cough up additional resources for us. He has no reason to believe we even possess this capability, and 1.2 BP is a utopian bounty of power, especially with a decision point coming up. We can't afford to burn ourselves out on this.
 
Robotninja said:
False. Rihaku explicitly lays out that this will give us no benefit in the option itself.
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He doesn't say that at all, just that it'd be useless against the Heroine and we can't be assured it will bounce back to us, because Tyranshal didn't offer us something to do a better job of it.

The entire "Usefulness/Not Usefulness" calculus in both choices is that "Does this help me defeat the Heroine? No? Then it's useless"
 
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Alectai said:
He doesn't say that at all, just that it'd be useless against the Heroine and we can't be assured it will bounce back to us, because Tyranshal didn't offer us something to do a better job of it.
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Not my point. My point is that no, you cannot say "oh, any unspecified BP cost is suspect if this leads to no reward".
Because this explicitly lays out that it will be useless to us. There is no trap where we spend 7BP for Truth only to discover that it gives us nothing.
 
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Tally incoming
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Mar 28, 2018 at 1:07 AM, finished with 72 posts and 22 votes.
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Look, it's a Grand Diagram. There is no such thing as a useless ninth level spell. This is the kind of magic that flips off reality. Even if the other Liches don't want to go, even if we just use it as a garbage pail, it's still doing things that cannot be done without it; removing items from Existence without destroying them, almost certainly permanently.

If all else fails, sketch it through the stonework of our Evil Lair later on in life and send us and the Heroine Outside. It'll make sure we can't lose her, and we're a Diagram genius. We'll make it back eventually.
 
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