Only direct Diagram magic attacks, which, as these traps were designed against Cultivators, probably don't exist, given Diagram Magic's inferior offensive power. I'd expect more in the way of giant boulders or lakes of lava as threats, or giant monsters.
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Even Further Beyond [Complete]
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
Only direct Diagram magic attacks, which, as these traps were designed against Cultivators, probably don't exist, given Diagram Magic's inferior offensive power. I'd expect more in the way of giant boulders or lakes of lava as threats, or giant monsters.
First of all, there is exactly zero reason to think that scamming these Cultivators would make them loyal to us. In fact, scamming people usually results in the opposite of loyalty. There is no reason to think that they'll end up working for us.
Second, we already had Huai, a Reality Forming Cultivator, offered to us. A guy an order of magnitude stronger than these scrubs. We turned him down. And now you want to waste time winning these losers over?
Lastly if we want to focus on allies we can just talk to dad or grandpa.
...
Here's a hint at what fighting a Psion might look like.
So we can see here that Psions have a large innate advantage against even Titans, because they need merely to reinforce the existing reality.
No. Of course not. That's why rolling them over is something we can do without consequences. What I am pretty sure on is that having a bunch of Dao Cleaving and one Reality Forming Cultivator, possibly working alongside a lich, gather cultivation resources for him for a few months is an awful lot more efficient than doing it himself.
They're a notable more powerful and much more disposable strike force than him and his friends.
And yes, they'll become obsolete soon, but spending one month to get several months service would be pretty efficient.
That's what the Mastermind point is for. It ensures that we don't make them enemies. Nameless was taught by his father how to keep his allies sufficiently loyal by offering them sufficient benefits from playing along. This is something that Nameless knows how to do, and particularly if we can get the lich on side, we can make it very profitable for them as well, so that it's in their interests to keep to the deal.
One of these guys is a Reality Forming Cultivator, and they have multiple Dao Cleaving guys, so I don't get where you're saying that Hui is an order of magnitude more powerful from. I also don't see why you'd think that we'd turn Hui down if he was offered to us today.
We can't talk to Nameless' father and grandfather because they're eight months travel away and so currently inaccessible. We have to make do with the materials we have to work with.
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The Bleak Ravens' Cultivation path is antithetical to the pursuit of the Philosopher-King; they're mostly relevant as obstacles to getting at the liches, who themselves are spell repositories for us. Access to their resources and getting everyone working together would be convenient for our purposes, I just don't think it's going to pan out. We have no idea what the Patriarch is doing or whether that information might be enough leverage to compel the Sect's cooperation. His plans might be totally incompatible with the liches' continued survival, since they're Doomed. Everyone involved hates each other, to a degree that even our talents and advantages probably can't overcome, and binding them together with a web of deceit is bound to backfire.
The idea is that it doesn't really matter what the Reality Forming guy's plans currently are, because we want to be in a position of sufficient power over him to make him decide to change his plans. We are fully capable of framing the sect if they're not actually engaging in treason with a Diagram Lich.
We don't know precisely what's wrong with the Bleak Ravens Cultivation Path. It may be flawed in a way that Nameless' other skills perfectly patch, giving him the upsides without the downsies. More generally, I think Nameless' scientific cultivation will be aided by knowing what the other paths are. Seeing someone else's errors helps you as well, and reveals more of the underlying rules and interactions that Cultivation exploits.
And everyone hating each other is to our advantage, as it makes it much harder for them to decide to team up against us, and gives us an emotional lever to use against them. It also gives us a way to create a nice self-destruct mechanism for the scheme when we're done with it, as we can get them to kill each other and plug the potential information links. The liches' Doom is helps with this.
And, as a small side benefit, I think Nameless' father would be so proud if we pulled this off, as his first real, proper scam when he was adventuring.
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Rihaku
The Internet
I count two omakes since I last issued Beyond Points, is that correct? Unelemental's lich omake and drake_azathoth's game guide omake.
In that case, you guys do not yet have two Beyond Points. If you took .4 Beyond Points, you still wouldn't, though you'd be pretty close to two. If you are offered an attractive Further Beyond, I imagine the thread might be able to make one Beyond Point in time, but ~1.5 is not something you guys can bank on. On the other hand, combinations of single Beyond point spells can often be just as good or better than a Further Beyond, if the spells are synergistic.
And you do need to save some Beyond points for Philosopher-King, if you guys intend to pursue that route.
In that case, you guys do not yet have two Beyond Points. If you took .4 Beyond Points, you still wouldn't, though you'd be pretty close to two. If you are offered an attractive Further Beyond, I imagine the thread might be able to make one Beyond Point in time, but ~1.5 is not something you guys can bank on. On the other hand, combinations of single Beyond point spells can often be just as good or better than a Further Beyond, if the spells are synergistic.
And you do need to save some Beyond points for Philosopher-King, if you guys intend to pursue that route.
Our grandpa is a Titan who rules billions of people. Our clan rules a fifth of the empire. Trying to recruit these guys is like Bill Gates picking up pennies on the sidewalk. Flawed pennies, at that, since these guys have wrecked their cores.
I think everyone has already made up their minds here, so I'm not going to waste any more time arguing with you.
And Nameless has access to almost precisely none of those resources right now, unless he prefers to rip off his family's bank rather than a bunch of strangers. He's largelly one his own on this adventure. He doesn't have half a dozen hidden experts guarding his back, he isn't being showered with a continuous stream of high grade cultivation resources. At this point he has whatever resources he can scrounge together.
If we'd wanted access to the Yong government resources, we should have run a fief. Instead we decided to go (almost) solo.
Look at what Nameless' father did. He went out and scammed people just like this. He couldn't rely on just being given stuff either, and found this kind of deal to be much more profitable. Seriously, he was investing time in scamming people he met on the side of the road when he was the son of the Titan of Earth. They can't have all been the Titans that you think are the only cultivators worthy of our time to scam. If they had been, they'd just have killed him, or his father would, for bringing shame on the family for being an idiot.
Even Ming Xiaoling, who's even wealthier than Nameless was, would rapidly bankrupt herself if she tried to rely on the assets her clan gives her for Cultivation resources.
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Da Boyz
The Cutest Apocalypse.
A reaction to A Pitiless Age, I really do appreciate how Liefang's introduction showcased his character so well while still keeping him charming and entertaining to read. 1336 words.
Odd for Nammeless to be counting his blessings here since unlike everyone else he got to choose the circumstances of his birth and paid through the nose to get them. As the Young Master we are the 0.00001% though which conveys a whole host of benefits, dosh being a superpower fit to rival Cultivation!
dad why
dad stahp
Also damn that casual reference to slavery really hammers home just how different the world is here.
Dad's healthy dollop of pragmatism will hopefully prevent us from getting too prideful or vindictive in the future. Though when your role-model casually enslaves people and sends them to their deaths to cover up his crimes it does not bode well.
Surprisingly communal and beneficial themes from our grandpa considering how prickly he was last update. Then again when you have to deal with some young upstart causing a mess every few years I guess its only natural you'd develop into a grumpy old man. If the very environment is terraformed though you have to wonder why its so beautiful when rather then focused on efficiency. Some sort of Daoist pattern which resembles art but nonetheless encourages productivity more then more efficient farming techniques? Or maybe Grandpa just wanted a beautiful landscape near his house.
"And then he'd die as heaven smote him down because he had the lack of luck to be selected by them."
Odd for Nammeless to be counting his blessings here since unlike everyone else he got to choose the circumstances of his birth and paid through the nose to get them. As the Young Master we are the 0.00001% though which conveys a whole host of benefits, dosh being a superpower fit to rival Cultivation!
We stand atop one of the pillars of the Empire...if nothing else we now really have personal investment in seeing it stay safe! Still it seems that Grandpa is Cultivation's version of the Avatar and that he was reasonably proactive about improving his lands back in the day. I have to wonder if the lands still have to be maintained by him occasionally or if the disciples of his Cultivation can keep things under control. Since Grandpa seems to have withdrawn from public life its probably the latter unless he's taken up continent gardening as a hobby.
700,000,000,000 huh? Bigger then some Cultivation settings but far less expansive then some, also gives an idea about just how powerful the Cultivators can get if such a "small" area can contain Titans. No duels involving destroying planets here.
The option we've taken prioritizes long-term growth to the extent that nothing is liable to be able to challenge us if we beat the Heroine so this confidence is probably warranted.
Yeah its as odd as it is endearing to see Nameless freaking out over the possibilities laid before him like a kid at Toys R' Us (RIP). Our choice to be a nerd is showing here though and synergizing with us picking the most intellectual of the mentor options laid before us.
Its good to know that our dad is invested and interested in us. Also his inhuman manipulation skills are showing here as he manages to insinuate himself in his kid's life while still juggling the responsibilities he has as the Yong strategist.
dad no
dad why
dad stahp
In all honesty I'm kinda glad to see this informality and relaxation with our dad. In fiction fillial relationships like this can get pretty fucked up, especially in rich/noble families where the weight of obligation and expectation can be crushing. Our dad being an asshole is a fair trade for that.
"Ah world domination, what an innocent childhood dream. I'm sure the kid will grow out of this phase given some time though."
Mom hasn't even shown up and she's already great. Not sure if dad is trying to lay on a guilt trip for not paying equal amounts of attention to her or just trying to cement himself as the "favorite" parent.
First insinuating that we're a nerd that spends too much time with his nose in books and then switching tracks to saying we've been retarded mentally. Liefang's insult cavalcade cares not for such silly things as "continuity" or "logic."
Phenomenal cosmic power is a pretty nice thing to bribe your kid with in Cultivator society, mildly surprised we don't have a stable filled with thoroughbred magic horses awaiting our attentions though. Also its good to know that Liefang didn't steal our candy when we were literally a baby.
Mildly surprising that dad knows that we're growing up spoiled yet is only now trying to make us work for and earn our power. I guess from his perspective being spoiled isn't that bad a thing for a scion of Yong, bar a disaster we're bound to live in luxury for the rest of our life and the Yong hold the most prosperous and stable lands in the empire.
My dreams of an intense winner take all game of Mahjong with the Heroine to decide the fate the world is crushed.
Well it seems the barrier between mortals and immortals is firmly in place with that "more than human" comment. Still its fairly accurate and so long as it doesn't lead to the typical Cultivator antics of dismissing the deaths of billions due to just being human it isn't that bad. Trying to enforce equality under the law in a setting like this is probably doomed from the get-go.
Neeeeeeeerd, also mildly concerning that Nameless chose "intelligence" as the answer which separates humans from Cultivators. Seems to have taken dad aback at least even if his cultural fixation on Cultivation is unsurprising.
Dad acknowledging both mortals and those he manipulates as people does bode well for his perspective on mortals and relative assholishness. Though it could well be the case that he is just indifferent to trampling over people to reach his goals regardless of their origins. Equality through exploitative indifference!
"The true power was the friends you made along the way."
...you have to wonder about the importance of heirs when you're immortal. Grandpa was apparently around at the beginning of the Empire and was the first Titan so it would seem that vastly increased longevity is something cultivators have if not out and out immortality lich style. Do lower stages really give such a small improvement in lifespan, from the expected training times for each stage you wouldn't think so. Cultivator society might just be violent enough that it is always wise to have an heir though.
"The moral of the story is that drugs, dosh and a can-do attitude can trump any amount of raw talent and hard work provided you use morality as a dump stat."
Also damn that casual reference to slavery really hammers home just how different the world is here.
"You can keep fleecing a sheep for years if you're careful and treat them well during the shearing. However you can only butcher them for mutton once."
Dad's healthy dollop of pragmatism will hopefully prevent us from getting too prideful or vindictive in the future. Though when your role-model casually enslaves people and sends them to their deaths to cover up his crimes it does not bode well.
Liefang is many things but it would seem that whipped is not one of them. Aside from ensuring that she didn't kill him I do have to wonder why he married Mom though, actual affection?
While useful at brushing things under the table and remaining subtle disguises probably have limited use when you're a child of the Yong. At a certain point being able to slap people over the head with the weight of your name trumps being underestimated.
Dad is less then impressed with our fraudster credentials. Kinda surprised that Nameless has knowledge of how to do all these things, while I imagine he can study up on many of them in this world it does make you wonder about his old world knowledge.
Schemes which require trust are drastically less effective in a world where everyone of note is a backstabbing asshole. Who could have guessed?
Somewhere in a universe far far away Anys Syn felt an inexplicable urge to get wasted. Cultivation materials being outside of conventional means to acquire at higher levels was hinted at earlier with the "unremitting competition" part of the Cultivation description. Unsurprising but still rather disappointing.
Oh right the mentor we voted to get and then summarily kill off in the timeskip we first started to learn from him. Our dreams of being a magical terrorist alongside our mentor were crushed before they could even begin...also probably counterproductive but that's irrelevant.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The loan we can take is our access to those resources. We can't access more because it would attract hostile attention we can't protect ourself from and because we aren't in the same place as those resources.
Note my description of ripping off his family's companies rather than ripping off strangers. Well, his lich mentor did teach him to be unfilial.
There's also Genesys' reaction, which admittedly isn't an omake.
Rihaku
The Internet
Hm, it'd be nice if the word count filter detected text in spoilers and quotes. Well, that alongside the other recent reaction will get you guys very close to, if not at 2 BP if you take the +.4.
To be fair, 14-15 year olds typically aren't provided resources sufficient to breach the Dao Cleaving stage as you are attempting. As far as money goes, sufficient resources can usually ensure that even a hack can break into Dao Cleaving if one is willing to bear any level of inefficiency and wait for a substantial amount of time. Only the Ming, with their network and access, might be able to produce Reality Forming with money, and only at enormous cost. Anything above that relies on resources beyond money. Priceless Treasures usually can't be paid for in currency, hence their name.
As there's been some dispute over the fact, if my proposed plan worked and we did managed to suborn the Bleak Ravens/the putative lich to his interests for a few months, would it make a noticeable difference, or are they too small scale to be able to contribute to his progression?
Rihaku
The Internet
Nameless isn't sure, there are too many variables to account for. It depends a great deal on what the Patriarch is actually doing; no other sects in this area have a Reality Forming Cultivator. If he's actually inactive for some reason and they're covering that up then that reduces their value substantially. Same if he's doing something that absolutely can't be disturbed for whatever reason.
If he's fully onboard with being controlled and capable of acting, Nameless could definitely think of uses for him. Whether those uses (given the time invested) are the best use of everyone's energy is impossible to say without considering every scenario, but they'd certainly expand your options.
Suborning the lich is an entirely different consideration, and more likely to be profitable if it is possible. But the lich may or may not have anything to do with the Bleak Ravens. Nameless can't think of a plausible reason why he would have to use Direct Investigation to suborn the Lich, since he can meet with the Lich stealthily as well.
If he's fully onboard with being controlled and capable of acting, Nameless could definitely think of uses for him. Whether those uses (given the time invested) are the best use of everyone's energy is impossible to say without considering every scenario, but they'd certainly expand your options.
Suborning the lich is an entirely different consideration, and more likely to be profitable if it is possible. But the lich may or may not have anything to do with the Bleak Ravens. Nameless can't think of a plausible reason why he would have to use Direct Investigation to suborn the Lich, since he can meet with the Lich stealthily as well.
That's not what he's saying. He's saying "if you want just the Lich under your control, that doesn't need Direct Investigation".
We do, though? It doesn't run the risk of escalating the situation by inserting ourselves into something we don't fully understand and lets us attempt a diplomatic resolution with the Bleak Ravens. The direct approach just isn't required to get to the lich, and suborning the Ravens may or may not be viable, based on information we don't know yet. It's just garden-variety clarification.
Rihaku
The Internet
The pros and cons of a direct vs stealthy approach are enumerated in the option descriptions. Nowhere in the presented options is the possibility of controlling the Bleak Ravens suggested. However, given Nameless' abilities it is something he can attempt to do. It would be difficult for him to reliably give metrics on the outcome of success or failure without knowing more.
Rihaku
The Internet
Alright, it looks like the two Direct Investigation plans (Scam/Free Mastermind Point) vs (Loan/Beyond Point Progress) are leading. On balance it looks like the slight vote and argument lead of the former would put it out ahead. The latter does have more omake power but is behind enough on other metrics that that only tightens the gap. However, neither Unelemental or Genesys, who also have omake power this vote, have voted.
- Location
- UK
There is something to be said for setting up a consistent narrative. We could claim we suspect the Bleak Ravens of being demon cultivators trying bring about the summoning of a terrible demon in four years. Who of the brave sects will dare to earn the contribution points needed to win fabulous prizes? Although perhaps selling tickets to the lottery is a better fit.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Oooh. Nice 94.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That seems... good?
Well, here's hoping the 94 pays off... And that we can hustle up more Beyond points quickly.
Hm, since Direct Investigation is locked in, we should probably think about tactics:
Diplomacy:
Tricky, despite our strengths. Three Great Clans being represented makes it hard to justify barring our path. We can try subtle uses of Illusory Guise to make Suizhen appear to be from a different branch of the Kong, for an additional boost. As a Sect on the edge of the Overgrowth, these guys should know that hiding anything from her eyes is an exercise in futility. "To face Kong is to strike nothing but emptiness," and if she's going to figure out what's going on anyway, why not just tell us?
We could try to bluff already being aware of everything, maybe using the Ring's illusion immunity as a prop for boasting, but that seems tenuous. The Ravens have lots of enemies, though, and if they're desperate to defend their Patriarch they might also be desperate for allies; Xiaoling got intelligence on their operations by bribing rivals, who could try riling up to create a need for more support. Last but not least, our perfect foundation is a tempting carrot for the Bleak Ravens. Sure, they can't actually use it (not least because these guys can't revise their Cultivation bases), but having taught it to Xiaoling makes it a credible bargaining chip to throw in as part of our 'alliance'.
I did have on theory about what the Patriarch is doing, too. Forbidden Techniques that take chunks out of a user's lifespan are common in Xianxia, and in-theme for the Bleak Ravens, who burn their tomorrows in the name of rapid advancement. If that's true (should try and verify, checking ages of Sect members & rumors), then maybe the Patriarch just doesn't want to end up on Night's Plutonian shore? Could be after lichdom or some other radical form of life extension. Could be completely off base, but the Sect's name is telling.
Force:
The Bleak Ravens have weak Cultivation bases; Mordant Fire erodes the target's Cultivation base. Boosted by Potentiation, it's semi-relevant against Dao Cleaving, so we should be able to use it against their officers. Cultivators are notoriously risk-averse where power is concerned. Nobody wants to risk their advancement in a fight. Between our own senses, Suizhen's eyes of Kong, and Xiaoling's preliminary reconnaissance we should be able to pick out who has the weakest foundation. Then we use our speed to spam the Sigil, burying the weakest link in their defense beneath a deluge of Mordant Fire, with the goal of triggering a rout.
Shock and awe should be the name of the game here. If we're ambushing them, teleport into their midst; if targets can be teleported without consent (not sure this works) and the battle drags on, we could potentially isolate and remove troublesome enemies that way. Potentiation-boosted Illusory Guise should be used to hide our Lackeys. Xiaoling only fights three quarters of a Stage above her level (the apex of Ego Barrier, unless she's broken through since then), and putting someone who's effectively in Organ Refining up against a bunch of Dao Cleaving fanatics isn't strategy, just a recipe for slaughter.
Edit: And I'm apparently too late. Well, shit.
Diplomacy:
Tricky, despite our strengths. Three Great Clans being represented makes it hard to justify barring our path. We can try subtle uses of Illusory Guise to make Suizhen appear to be from a different branch of the Kong, for an additional boost. As a Sect on the edge of the Overgrowth, these guys should know that hiding anything from her eyes is an exercise in futility. "To face Kong is to strike nothing but emptiness," and if she's going to figure out what's going on anyway, why not just tell us?
We could try to bluff already being aware of everything, maybe using the Ring's illusion immunity as a prop for boasting, but that seems tenuous. The Ravens have lots of enemies, though, and if they're desperate to defend their Patriarch they might also be desperate for allies; Xiaoling got intelligence on their operations by bribing rivals, who could try riling up to create a need for more support. Last but not least, our perfect foundation is a tempting carrot for the Bleak Ravens. Sure, they can't actually use it (not least because these guys can't revise their Cultivation bases), but having taught it to Xiaoling makes it a credible bargaining chip to throw in as part of our 'alliance'.
I did have on theory about what the Patriarch is doing, too. Forbidden Techniques that take chunks out of a user's lifespan are common in Xianxia, and in-theme for the Bleak Ravens, who burn their tomorrows in the name of rapid advancement. If that's true (should try and verify, checking ages of Sect members & rumors), then maybe the Patriarch just doesn't want to end up on Night's Plutonian shore? Could be after lichdom or some other radical form of life extension. Could be completely off base, but the Sect's name is telling.
Force:
The Bleak Ravens have weak Cultivation bases; Mordant Fire erodes the target's Cultivation base. Boosted by Potentiation, it's semi-relevant against Dao Cleaving, so we should be able to use it against their officers. Cultivators are notoriously risk-averse where power is concerned. Nobody wants to risk their advancement in a fight. Between our own senses, Suizhen's eyes of Kong, and Xiaoling's preliminary reconnaissance we should be able to pick out who has the weakest foundation. Then we use our speed to spam the Sigil, burying the weakest link in their defense beneath a deluge of Mordant Fire, with the goal of triggering a rout.
Shock and awe should be the name of the game here. If we're ambushing them, teleport into their midst; if targets can be teleported without consent (not sure this works) and the battle drags on, we could potentially isolate and remove troublesome enemies that way. Potentiation-boosted Illusory Guise should be used to hide our Lackeys. Xiaoling only fights three quarters of a Stage above her level (the apex of Ego Barrier, unless she's broken through since then), and putting someone who's effectively in Organ Refining up against a bunch of Dao Cleaving fanatics isn't strategy, just a recipe for slaughter.
Edit: And I'm apparently too late. Well, shit.
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