Even Further Beyond [Complete]

I wonder if the Psionics suggested by Alectai would be heavily augmented by the Fall of the Diagram. They say that each competing paradigm saps a magic's power, and if Psionics is external, then it might well be in the same category as Diagram. Extremely useful against Cultivators, not so much against Diagrammists.. but then the Diagrammists are about to be wiped out.
 
Kleinvarr's Greater Refining now improves our resources by a large amount, roughly 20 - 100% at least.
Not mastered. So it's effectiveness is cut down severely.
lvan's Balm of Growth lets us grow better Cultivation resources by simply regularly casting it on a plant. (This stacks with Refining, we can use Refining on plants grown by Balm)
We would need a Vault, otherwise this is useless unless you are implying we should just stay at a location farming for years.
Quickening boosts our everything by 4, which speaks for itself in terms of practical use.
The one solid multiplier we have, which is only as good as it is due to The Ring, and a Beyond Point.
Forge let us forge an extremely powerful Cultivation boosting Artifact that at least doubles efficiency of any Cultivation resources we eat.
If you were to look at the base spell of Forge, you'd realize how weak this was until we went Further Beyond. The forge is only useful to us as it is because we took it to such a point where it's neigh to completely unteachable to anyone else.
Potentiation further adds X% increase on every one of these spells. (And we can only use it safely due to being a Lich and not needing blood-another Diagram)
Potentiation required us being a Lich and a Beyond point to be used at it's full effectiveness.

Diagram has been a huge BP sink to get us the power we currently have. And even then, we are only the strength of about Mid Dao Cleaving because we went out of Diagram and actually Cultivated and used two certain Artifacts.

Meaning, we have gained more strength in a few months, than we have in 14 years of pure Diagram focus. And you want to go back to Diagram focus, because you believe we can get an actual, functioning multiplier, and even then, you are convinced we still need to spend BP to actually make it useful.
 
Yeah, that was exactly what Diagram was marketed as on Page 1 of this Quest: a very potent multiplier for non-magic sources of power. There's no denying that. And even if the Diagram liches are weak, Rihaku has mentioned the Diagram is a very good method for reaching Ultimate power early. The only way I can see that happening is through exploiting its multipliers.

We havent't even finished investing in the spells that we already have access to that might get us multipliers.

I do know that, but I'm also voting for getting BP since we're perpetually short on it, which is a plus.

For the three choices, though, I'm referring to the three choices dealing with the Lich Stronghold. There's no "I'm not doing a Stronghold" choice. It's A: Direct, B: Indirect, or C: Find another Stronghold.

We generally have a lot more BP to spend than we do Mastermind Points. So far they've been a significantly more constrained resource. We've spent, what, ten plus Beyond Points and never had a single Mastermind Point.

That isn't the only choice to make in this update. We can also choose how much time to invest in this. Hopefully the direct approach is fastest.

I believe that you are confusing "sunk cost fallacy" for "reaping the rewards of your investments".

A common mistake, for sure.

Lich means new spells. New spells mean new BP opportunities. More BP to spend means ability to maximize profit on actions we have taken so far.

We don't need new places to spend BP. This isn't reaping the rewards of an investment, as we've no idea if there is a reward, or whether it will be attractive to us.

What we can say is that we know that Nameless needs money. We also, meta-wise need information on the capabilities of Mastermind points.

The fact that we've previously chosen to spend effort on liches does not oblige us to spend more effort on them. The previous expenditure is dead.

The type of spells that the liches would develop don't seem at all optimised for the problems we face. They've been fighting Cultivators that don't have esoteric respawn methods. They don't have any Cultivation or artifice to augment. The ones obvious thing we know they can make which we could buy is the Vault spell, which would probably be worth a BP, but we could have developed it independently in less time than this will take. We also have the single BP required for Vault.
 
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[X] Direct Investigation
[X] Scam People

[X] +40% Beyond Point Progress

I still want to scam people, but we need that VP
 
[X] Stealth Insertion
We don't know what is going on. This offers the best chance of finding out what the Reality-Forming Patriarch is up to before committing to an unfortunate course of action. Besides, our allies will train and get stronger. Without our allies around, the Liches have less leverage over us, too (potential hostage situation, Suizhen's morals).

[X] Take Out a Loan
No hassle, gives us time to focus on the main task.

[X] Actually Useful
Unique opportunity to eventually get more than 20/25 customization out of the Vault of the Ur-Pharao without spending additional BP or objective months of Cultivation to make an artifact.
Could also be traded to a Lich, I suppose.
 
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[X] Direct Investigation
[X] Scam People
[X] +40% Beyond Point Progress

So looks like the Reality Forming Cultivator is trying to breakthrough unopposed. I wonder if they found a good Cultivation spot.
 
Well tough shit bud, we just took one. Now, we need to make most out of it.

You know how it goes - when other voters give you lemons...

We don't need to make the most of it if that isn't the most effective thing to do at this junction. As they say in the tech world, fail fast and pivot.

Insisting that previous votes have to be followed through whatever the trade offs involved is the sunk cost fallacy.
 
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We have a BP here to go Beyond on a spell that the Liches teach us. That's enough. Given the other expenditure we need to make on other things, I don't think we should be spending more than that anyway, so it's more efficient to have a Mastermind Point at its full value of 0.5 BP rather than get BP progress at a discount. The psychology of the thread means that it's more efficient to be on 2.x BPs anyway, so that if a very attractive Further Beyond comes along people are motivated to write omakes/create art. If we're already at or close to 3 BP, that motivation is removed, so taking this option will tend to reduce our overall power.
 
We don't need to make the most of it if that isn't the most effective thing to do at this junction.
Except, you know, it is.
Insisting that previous votes have to be followed through whatever the trade offs involved is the sunk cost fallacy.
What trade offs? Maybe 10% chance of getting an unknown treasure? You seeing what MMs do despite blurbs clearing stating what they do?

Nah mate, I'll take my chance to go Further Beyond instead. Who knows, maybe it turns out that spells are shit and i get second chance on convincing people to go for Truth.
 
Argument for taking out a loan instead of Scammery:

Loans Pros:

Basically consequence-free, the Yong bank isn't realky going to chase after the Yong scion.
Massive cash infusion.
Minimal time spent.

Scammery Pros:
Trains scammery skills.
Potential treasures.
Potential Priceless Treasure (MMP)

Scammery Cons:
Takes up quite a bit of time - We might well want to cultivate up to peak Soul Chyrssalis or Research/Master a spell.
Potential Enemies (MMP mitigates)
Costs MMP (If suboption chosen)

And an argument to take Direct Investigation - Well, we've got power, they've got suboptimal foundation while we've got optimal ones.. But mostly Charmed Life. We simply have to discuss options.
You know how it goes - when other voters give you lemons...
Give them back lemonade concentrate, plus salt on top.
 
[X] Stealth Insertion
[X] Take Out a Loan
[X] +40% Beyond Point Progress

I'm not really sure why we would want to go through the Cultivators, because we get to bring our Lackeys?

The gold Diagram is interesting because of the 2 points it would presumably give to the Vault, I'm just not sure if the 2 points to Vault really worth it. Do we really did a Vault uses so many points? For instance I would want a training Area Vault, would the extra 2 points make that much better? I lean towards no.

Kong eyes don't seem particularly good here. Unless this is step one of a multi-upgrade plan for Suizhen. Interesting that with this we could Pass and use Suizhen as our Lich Hunter. Might be worth taking it for her to be able to find Lichs for us anyway.

Ultimately I want to get the BP point and see what the Lichs have for us to learn. Going in stealth, either we can make a deal with the Lichs and help them escape the Cultivator, or we destroy the Lichs with our Ring immunity and receive acclaim from the Cultivators. Stealth, assuming it works, gives us great future options here.

I don't support Scamming because of the time involved, don't want to be too late to this situation. Other than that I have no real problems with it though.
 
Except, you know, it is.

What trade offs? Maybe 10% chance of getting an unknown treasure? You seeing what MMs do despite blurbs clearing stating what they do?

Nah mate, I'll take my chance to go Further Beyond instead. Who knows, maybe it turns out that spells are shit and i get second chance on convincing people to go for Truth.

I think that each further investment in Diagram Magic we make predisposes the voter base to make even more such investments in future, whether efficient or not, as their conception of Nameless becomes more and more that he is a wizard and should stick to wizarding becaus that's his assigned 'role'.

This, while getting an enhanced spell from the liches may be locally efficient, I don't think that it will be globally so, given how it will influence future build decisions.
 
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The gold Diagram is interesting because of the 2 points it would presumably give to the Vault, I'm just not sure if the 2 points to Vault really worth it. Do we really did a Vault uses so many points? For instance I would want a training Area Vault, would the extra 2 points make that much better? I lean towards no.

Well, there are five categories that the pocket dimension can be specialized in. Accessibility, Habitability, Security, Sign Augmentation, Size.
For a training area, we would want stuff like time acceleration, healing, and so on, so Sign Augmentation. Spending lots of time in there presumably also requires a certain degree of Habitability. Since it's already time-accelerated and habitable, we might as well farm valuable Cultivation plants in there, requiring more Size. Also, the Vault holds supplies and valuable stuff, which means it needs Security to keep it safe. Leaves Accessibility as a dump stat, unless we want to use the already present Sign Augmentation and Security to make it useful in combat...

There's always ways to make it better with more points. How much better is hard to tell without knowing what a category gives at what rating. In any case, it's perhaps the best use for a 10% boost to something we don't really want to go Further Beyond on.
 
If we did get a Vault, Security would be my highest priority. All the other things are nice, but having a place where you can puts things and be sure nobody can get them is essential, especially when a significant proportion of your power is stored in objects.
 
Since wild, far out theories are acceptable here, such as finding the heroine before she becomes 18, we may not want to take out a loan. It could harm the economy here. And the heroine could be living here and it'd give her a perfect excuse to go on a revenge plot against us if her family suffers for it.
 
One side benefit of scamming is that we've seen that we target people that disrupt the proper functioning of the Empire. This will, in it's own small way help make Southern Vane a more stable place, reducing the Heroine's ability to knock it down. This contrasts with the bank loan option, which would destabilise the area in its own small way by risking causing a financial crisis. Also, I think we invented banking in this world. I don't want to screw that up, as it could be a stabilising factor for the broader Empire. We also don't want to unnecessarily compromise our own social standing by undermining the Yong, as we're already borrowing our clan's prestige.

This makes it more worthwhile to spend a Mastermind Point on it, as we'll be redistributing more powerful and useful resources away from disruptive influences. We'll also do so in a way that lives up to our father's advice about making enemies and being too obvious.

There's also the question of practice. We haven't scammed in conjunction with Xiaoling before, and a backwater place like this is a perfect place to refine our techniques before using them somewhere that matters. If we use a Mastermind Point, she may also learn something from seeing a masterful display of the art of the con.

Scamming probably also has pretty good synergy with the direct approach anyway, as both involve socialising with other Cultivators. Getting some practice in before meeting the lich(es) may also be a good idea.

There's also meta concerns. Taking longer to actively adventure can be a good thing thanks to its accelerated Mastermind Point production. Taking three months rather than one to find the lich and moving on to another multi-month time skip may actually be to our advantage, as we'd have an extra Beyond Point. If we do all our adventures very quickly and spend nearly all our time time-skipping between adventures Deliberation would give very poor returns.

Time burns, but time and BPs are a partially interchangeable currency. We're six months through our first year and have currently generated negative one Mastermind Point. That's a very poor showing.
 
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In my opinion it's pretty likely that Bleak Ravens are minions of this lich. Weakened core sounds like a thing that allows for subversion by Alvan's Crown of Tragedy especially if Diagramist have a Beyond version of spell. Hell, maybe he deliberately arranged things so that sect is vulnerable to this and now they're protecting their boss from big scary Nameless and his Ring of Doom. Or maybe lich plans to pull voluntary soultheft or something similar on that Patriarch and dodge the Doom that way, there is probably spell for doing that.
 
In terms of plans, scamming should work very well in combination with the direct approach, particularly if combined with a Mastermind Point. That's because if we get leverage over the local Cultivators we don't have to exploit them for money, we can also pump them for information or get them to betray their sect in ever escalating ways. This would hopefully give us a way in, or at least a lever to make one.

The basic plan would be to take inspiration from Nameless' memories of how organised crime rings were rolled up back on Earth. He starts with a junior member of the organisation and compromises them, and so flips them. Using what he learns from there, he can work his way up the chain until he gets to people who know useful things and have actual influence. In this way he can start to subvert the operations of the sect itself. Even better though, there are three rival sects in the city, and he can work on all of them at once, building the tension between them that will already be elevated by one of the Patriarchs ascending to the Reality Forming stage, and the threat that he's going to get even stronger with whatever he's found. He can exploit that to cover up his own activities, to cause distractions, or even to set up situations where his catspaws succeed and so are given more responsibility. His Potentiation boosted illusions really pay off here, as he can impersonate members of the sects to one another to stir tensions or manufacture conspiracies. Additionally, normally sects would be too static for this kind of subversion to happen quickly enough, but the situation will be in complete flux at the moment, and we can use that.

For example, one way of playing this is to substantially weaken the Bleak Raven sect, so that they get desperate enough to accept Nameless' offer of aids at a critical point to tide them over until their Patriarch emerges from seclusion.

This is why spending a Mastermind point on scamming is so useful, because it does a lot more than give him resources, it also means that his direct approach to the lich question will have a huge amount of potential backing if we make proper use of it. Stripping the locals of their Treasures will also probably make them more desperate and destabilise the situation any more, allowing Nameless and Xiaoling to compound their scamming.

This may also setup a giant scam, where we frame the sect as being in collusion with a Diagram Lich (whether or not they are), which would allow for some industrial grade exploitation and so very rapid cultivation for a while afterwards. This is where being able to cast illusions and the hidden ability to cast Diagram spells comes in very handy, as he can do things like impersonate the lich and have him be caught conspiring with a Sect Elder.

One of the reasons we went with Xiaoling was for the social benefits she brought, so lets try it out and see how it works. Spending a Mastermind point on this is there fore efficient as there's more to leverage. And don't tell me that the combination of the near supernaturally beautiful innocent young daughter of a Great Clan and Nameless can't come up with some amazing scams to work on the stereotypical xianxia characters. How many times do you think that Nameless would have to broker a deal or come to her rescue after some arrogant young inner disciple or lecherous sect elder implies ambitions on her virtue.

We should remember our father's teachings, both how to enslave and when not to, but also this:

The nameless heir soon learned that the ideal strategy was to play a myriad of simple plans, each of which could pay out substantially if successful, but whose loss would not be critical in the grand scheme of things. One took credit for the plans that succeeded, brushed the others under the table, and used the reputation gained thereby to support wilder schemes.​

We shouldn't only have one plan in motion at a time. We shouldn't only be depending on what we can get from the lich, we should have backup plans like extorting the local sects based on our knowledge of his presence if that doesn't pan out.

In my opinion it's pretty likely that Bleak Ravens are minions of this lich. Weakened core sounds like a thing that allows for subversion by Alvan's Crown of Tragedy especially if Diagramist have a Beyond version of spell. Hell, maybe he deliberately arranged things so that sect is vulnerable to this and now they're protecting their boss from big scary Nameless and his Ring of Doom. Or maybe lich plans to pull voluntary soultheft or something similar on that Patriarch and dodge the Doom that way, there is probably spell for doing that.

How would the lich know about Nameless or his Doom though? We were told that none of the other liches dared look at Fate.

The mind control option looks plausible, if unlikely. If the lich has been pulling the strings of the sect, then it may have developed Cultivation boosting spells, such as a force grand diagram that makes a place better to cultivate in. It still seems like a long shot though.
 
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[X] Direct Investigation
[X] Scam People
-[X] Spend a Mastermind Point
[X] Choose an 'expend Mastermind point' option this update for free
 
[X] Direct Investigation
[X] Scam People
-[X] Spend a Mastermind Point
[X] Choose an 'expend Mastermind point' option this update for free
 
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Guys, I understand the desire to pass on guaranteed resource we desperately need in favor of very slight opportunity to get unknown item, but i have even better plan.

Instead, we don't do that an get said resource we desperately need.
 
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