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Even Further Beyond [Complete]

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[X] Mercy

I'll put the vote for Mercy here and see where it goes. I am somewhat concerned this might well lead to a diminished world forever since there are no Ages or new Magic Systems anymore. On the other hand it does lead to a world free from the Fates.
 
[x] Justice

Sure, Baenlixnaire would want Vengeance, but literally every other person Nameleas cares about would prefer Justice. I really don't see how Baen's desire to commit hyperatrocities against the Fates outweighs... literally everything else.
 
DkArthas said:
I don't think we are deciding the fate of Mortal Spring here. We can make her tell us everything important!
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I think we are, actually?

Hey @Rihaku, given that this vote is a scale rather than 3 unrelated options, will the vote be judged as the average of that scale? I vaguely remember similar votes doing that in the past, I think. (Or was that from the previous quest?)
 
[X] Mercy

Kill them, and engineer their replacement. That is the best punishment, to see that they are forgotten, while all that they destroyed flourishes beyond them.
 
formalAI said:
And what impact do you think that decision will have on Aurelia and Suizhen? They will not be happy with Vengeance, that's for sure...
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Aurelia might not but Suizhen would go along with it just fine. This is the girl who was willing to go along with sparing Kong Zang at far less loyalty then she's at now, so long as we don't constantly rub her face into the fact that the cruel beings which have treated the world like their plaything for years on end are being horrifically tortured she'll shrug it off. She's idealistic and altruistic not an Elf.
 
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Mercy is likely gonna get removed at some point.

Justice is getting really ahead so it's time to devil advocate against it :V
 
Deathbybunnies said:
I think we are, actually?

Hey @Rihaku, given that this vote is a scale rather than 3 unrelated options, will the vote be judged as the average of that scale? I vaguely remember similar votes doing that in the past, I think. (Or was that from the previous quest?)
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The Lover's Oath - Marriage - Annihilate spectrum was one such example from this quest.

Da Boyz said:
Aurelia might not but Suizhen would go along with it just fine. This is the girl who was willing to go along with sparing Zang Kong at far less loyalty then she's at now, so long as we don't constantly rub her face into the fact that the cruel beings which have treated the world like their plaything for years on end are being horrifically tortured she'll shrug it off. She's idealistic and altruistic not an Elf.
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Sparing Zang Kong to redeem him and save those he contains is in line with her self-image as a virtuous swordmaiden, even if it's personally less satisfying. Infinite, unbearable torture that manifests reminders in the form of twisted Artifacts is a very different kettle of fish.

Rihaku said:
Well, that's only if they find out. But yes, in a perfect world they would certainly prefer to know and be horrified, though if they are powerless enough before you the utter futility of the act might deter them...
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>futility
>deter
>elves

uh huh. Also, what's the Nameless' explanation for his fucked up looking Artifacts going to be? Does that apply to all Binary Magic users? Because that's pretty hard to explain away.

EDIT: rip, added the users part in
 
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I think part of the problem is that people voting vengeance don't really understand what that entails.

It would mean torture. It would mean rape. I would add that it means things far worse than rape, but that's not really something people can wrap their minds around. Just think of the worst thing you or someone you love has ever experienced, and then imagine that lasting forever.
 
runeblue360 said:
Sparing Zang Kong to redeem him and save those he contains is in line with her self-image as a virtuous swordmaiden, even if it's personally less satisfying. Infinite, unbearable torture that manifests reminders in the form of twisted Artifacts is a very different kettle of fish.
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I was more talking about the decision point back in The Endless Sky. Suizhen would have been extremely sad and pissed if we'd sided with Kong going Type V back then but she would have accepted it.
 
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Da Boyz said:
I was more talking about the decision point back in The Endless Sky. Suizhen would have been extremely sad and pissed if we'd sided with Kong going Type V back then but she would have accepted it.
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That at least has some element of necessity to it. He was so absurdly beyond anything we'd thought possible that fighting him seemed entirely hopeless. We know better now, of course, but back then it would've been reasonable to conclude we couldn't possibly grow strong enough to resist him before the deadline. When not putting aside your vengeance could lead to every man, woman and child in existence to be devoured, forgiveness becomes a lot more palatable.

Meanwhile, we're the king of the cosmos right now or we would be if we could be bothered to take that title. We're beyond anything short of Kong and we could destroy him if we felt like it. For us to do this to the Fates is nothing less than an act of supreme cruelty. It's not like we don't have alternatives.
 
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Rule 2 Violation: Please avoid graphic torture fantasies in the future, because this post is beyond unacceptable.
vali said:
I think part of the problem is that people voting vengeance don't really understand what that entails.

It would mean torture. It would mean rape. I would add that it means things far worse than rape, but that's not really something people can wrap their minds around. Just think of the worst thing you or someone you love has ever experienced, and then imagine that lasting forever.
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>Claims that other people don't understand torture
>Thinks that rape is pinnacle for someone like Baen

Sweet, sweet summer child. Lich will spend decades having Fates build a values system just to tear it down in most cruel way. He will give them hope of salvation just to snatch them as they are about to escape. He will remove any limit on their ability to feel pain and have them reach realms of suffering never felt by a sentient being.

He will break them into soulless husks, then break them beyond that again and again, untill their whole existence is defined by suffering; but they would not forget love and happiness for such things would be allowed to them just so they never lose sights on sheer depths of their torment.

Imagine being Summer - after centuries of endless suffering you are saved by elves. You decide to repent, finding love with a commoner and having children with them. After long and fulfilled life she is on her deathbed surrounded by her children and their children too - just for all of that to vanish in puff of smoke, her and phantoms of her children going back to unlimited torture.

Then Baen stops fucking around and starts doing shit my mortal mind can't even.

But sure, rape is bad mkay :V
 
Wolfy said:
Then Baen stops fucking around and starts doing shit my mortal mind can't even.
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Let's all take a step back and very carefully avoid discussing any of the details of what's going to happen should Vengeance win. Bringing topics related to real life issues (like sexual assault) into this Chinese elfgame fantasy realm is the opposite of what we should be doing, especially if it might lead to making light of those issues.

If you really must discuss what might happen should we choose Vengeance, please keep it appropriately abstract lest we draw moderator attention.

(and yes, I know Orm's a mod, he's not gonna be the one judging)
 
Wolfy said:
>Claims that other people don't understand torture
>Thinks that rape is pinnacle for someone like Baen

Sweet, sweet summer child. Lich will spend decades having Fates build a values system just to tear it down in most cruel way. He will give them hope of salvation just to snatch them as they are about to escape. He will remove any limit on their ability to feel pain and have them reach realms of suffering never felt by a sentient being.

He will break them into soulless husks, then break them beyond that again and again, untill their whole existence is defined by suffering; but they would not forget love and happiness for such things would be allowed to them just so they never lose sights on sheer depths of their torment.

Imagine being Summer - after centuries of endless suffering you are saved by elves. You decide to repent, finding love with a commoner and having children with them. After long and fulfilled life she is on her deathbed surrounded by her children and their children too - just for all of that to vanish in puff of smoke, her and phantoms of her children going back to unlimited torture.

Then Baen stops fucking around and starts doing shit my mortal mind can't even.

But sure, rape is bad mkay :V
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There's thinking that doing an awful thing would be a good choice for the story, and then there's fantasizing about torturing people. I'm pretty sure the latter is against ZE RULES.

EDIT: Ninja'd
 
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Hm... given the policies of the site, it would probably be safest not to speculate on the details of Vengeance. I'm fairly certain it is okay to have characters contemplate morally unconscionable acts in the abstract but we don't even want to get close to the point where it is questionable.

Actually, just in case it ever comes up, we should decide on a spot for logistical discussion in case discussing Vengeance at all is considered beyond the pale. If that happens, I'll make an SB thread.
 
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Wolfy said:
>Claims that other people don't understand torture
>Thinks that rape is pinnacle for someone like Baen
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It's easy to vote for "Unspeakable horrors" because "Unspeakable horrors" don't exist. There's no moral weight to these words, no negative associations. Our moral sense is adapted for a very physical and immediate world, and so it naturally finds vague statements of eternal torture meaningless. I brought up real world examples like rape because I want to make this vote personal. I do, in fact, want to open this can of worms.

I care a lot about what words mean. That's why I'm on this website.

runeblue360 said:
Let's all take a step back and very carefully avoid discussing any of the details of what's going to happen should Vengeance win.
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While this is just a quest and not real, I do try to bring a certain moral seriousness with me when deciding on what to vote for. I think it makes for a more authentic questing experience.

Rihaku said:
Hm... given the policies of the site, it would probably be safest not to speculate on the details of Vengeance.
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In the future, I would prefer that you not offer voting options that we cannot discuss.
 
vali said:
It's easy to vote for "Unspeakable horrors" because "Unspeakable horrors" don't exist. There's no moral weight to these words, no negative associations. Our moral sense is adapted for a very physical and immediate world, and so it naturally finds vague statements of eternal torture meaningless. I brought up real world examples like rape because I want to make this vote personal. I do, in fact, want to open this can of worms.

I care a lot about what words mean. That's why I'm on this website.



While this is just a quest and not real, I do try to bring a certain moral seriousness with me when deciding on what to vote for. I think it makes for a more authentic questing experience.



In the future, I would prefer that you not offer voting options that we cannot discuss.
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No, you are being patronizing and implying that others put less thought into this than your enlightened self, while simultaneously displaying deep lack of understanding of what this torture means.

People looking down on others despite their own ignorance is irritating. Don't assume that others don't understand something because they disagree with you.
 
Considering the future as to mass Embracing, I wonder if Elven Naturalism could reinforce the world so Stage 15 Vampires everywhere do not result in cosmic destruction?

I also wonder if the Heroine without Fate intervention even has enough BPs to exploit her powers to levels reaching even a Titan's height.
 
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Wolfy said:
No, you are being patronizing and implying that others put less thought into this than your enlightened self, while simultaneously displaying deep lack of understanding of what this torture means.

People looking down on others despite their own ignorance is irritating. Don't assume that others don't understand something because they disagree with you.
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I assumed no one in this argument was putting much thought into exactly what Vengeance or Justice actually entailed beyond the literary aspects or knock-on effects, or we'd all be voting Mercy in disgust. I'm honestly a bit alarmed to find that I was mistaken.
 
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