Rihaku
The Internet
Their power in their mortal (Heroine / Hero) forms is uncapped, but their power as the Fates is static.
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Even Further Beyond [Complete]
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
Their power in their mortal (Heroine / Hero) forms is uncapped, but their power as the Fates is static.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
We should definitely let Baen perform the Fates' punishment - the disappointment that we're limiting our hyperatrocity to only being the equal of what they've dealt out to incredible numbers of people over innumerable cycles (which thinking about it, is also probably an amount beyond our capacity to understand) will probably be outweighed by the joy of doing it himself.
There's also another aspect that doing it himself might bring about. Could Baen himself understand just how much suffering is going to be inflicted, if he's not doing it himself? It's one thing to know intellectually that he hates the Fates, and that he would always prefer them to suffer "more", but there's a pretty decent chance that some point around the 10 thousandth cumulative year of suffering inflicted he's going to pull a Captain Ahab and discover that actually, vengeance is an ultimately empty thing that doesn't accomplish anything. It's not going to bring back the Age of the Diagram (though unlike in Ahab's case, that's because we're bringing it back already, booyah) and it'll probably get boring after a while.
There's also the fact that Nameless is literally infused with Baen's desire for vengeance. It could be argued that our decision here will in some ways define how much Baen wants this, because it's really his drive for vengeance that's compelling Nameless here - if Nameless chooses not to throw them into a pit of infinite suffering, that says something about Baen's motivation too. Hell, in the event Mercy won, it might be that killing them and ruining everything they built would be enough.
There's also another aspect that doing it himself might bring about. Could Baen himself understand just how much suffering is going to be inflicted, if he's not doing it himself? It's one thing to know intellectually that he hates the Fates, and that he would always prefer them to suffer "more", but there's a pretty decent chance that some point around the 10 thousandth cumulative year of suffering inflicted he's going to pull a Captain Ahab and discover that actually, vengeance is an ultimately empty thing that doesn't accomplish anything. It's not going to bring back the Age of the Diagram (though unlike in Ahab's case, that's because we're bringing it back already, booyah) and it'll probably get boring after a while.
There's also the fact that Nameless is literally infused with Baen's desire for vengeance. It could be argued that our decision here will in some ways define how much Baen wants this, because it's really his drive for vengeance that's compelling Nameless here - if Nameless chooses not to throw them into a pit of infinite suffering, that says something about Baen's motivation too. Hell, in the event Mercy won, it might be that killing them and ruining everything they built would be enough.
- Location
- England
I happen to agree, but unfortunately the votes don't pan out that way.
That these Immortals can only grow when mortal has rather unfortunate implications for Immortal Ascencion.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
I have been wondering, if they die in their mortal form and actually lost the game, do they return as a Fate or are they actually dead? Second, what's the mechanism that kills the Hero/Heroine of an age after they win their rigged contest?
DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
Why wouldn't it? There is no reason why they should be like mortals in there range of emotions and stuff.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Well yeah, but there not being a reason against it isn't the same thing as there being the reason for it. The absence of a negative is not a positive, it's nothing.
The reason might be "because they can think faster/harder", but it still has to exist.
- Location
- Canada
The rewards from choosing Vengeance are certainly tempting and one could argue that, given the power that we could gain from it could possibly help with the negotiation with Zang Kong and given that from those negotiations may depend the fates of a literally infinite amount of beings, an utilitarian calculation could see it as a justifiable option.
But ultimately, I just cannot countenance an option which would make the majority of the experiential content of our post-victory reality be suffering. To me that would taint our victory and make it rather unsatisfying. Particularly as it would be putting the wishes of Baenlixnaire ahead of pretty much every one else. Think about Aurelia, about Suizhen, about the elves and how they would feel about that decision...
So let there be
[X] Justice
But ultimately, I just cannot countenance an option which would make the majority of the experiential content of our post-victory reality be suffering. To me that would taint our victory and make it rather unsatisfying. Particularly as it would be putting the wishes of Baenlixnaire ahead of pretty much every one else. Think about Aurelia, about Suizhen, about the elves and how they would feel about that decision...
So let there be
[X] Justice
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Ah, the dreadful Power of Nepotism. Of course.
Protect this vaguely discomfited expression.
This is hilarious and awesome. Kudos, Rihaku.
[X] Mercy
Just murder them already.
Not voting for Vengeance is in very literal sense voting for a worse outcome. We know we can spend BPs to change epilogues for better - is it really worth it to make our future and future of our friends ever so slightly worse to lend our help to Fates?
To say that Fates did nothing to earn such favor would be an understatement. Baen himself more than earned his reward, giving his own life to allow us might we have arrived at.
In exchange for promise the transaction was made. Can one be trusted on the matters of morality if something as basic as keeping their word is beyond them?
To say that Fates did nothing to earn such favor would be an understatement. Baen himself more than earned his reward, giving his own life to allow us might we have arrived at.
In exchange for promise the transaction was made. Can one be trusted on the matters of morality if something as basic as keeping their word is beyond them?
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Would it be moral to agree and follow one's promise to commit utter horror?
Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We promised he'd get his vengeance and he will, Justice still has a great deal of suffering in store for them. We didn't really go for the infinite, unbearable hyperatrocity. We spent 3 BP to avoid being forced to do that, in fact. There was no contract that we are reneging on and all children must grow beyond the approval or disapproval of their parents, whether it be Liefang or Baenlixnaire.
Moreover, do we not have a responsibility to our subordinates to not force them to be party to this level of monstrosity? Rihaku has already said that the changes to the epilogue will be minor and I'm pretty sure they'll be outweighed by every elf everywhere dedicating themselves into freeing the Fates from their torment.
And yeah, this. What, Suizhen doesn't get her Vengeance but we do? We can literally resurrect the dead so it's not like her killing Kong would preclude saving him or the people within him but we still chose to Negotiate. Meanwhile, we can't take the Fates outside the Punishment Sphere+++ that we're going to put them in, nor can we undo their suffering. They deserve a lot but not infinite, unbearable torture.
Rihaku
The Internet
That brings up an interesting point - the BP is a quantifiable reward, but there are other less quantifiable consequences of this decision as well! For example, the psychological toll of knowing that entities are suffering, even if those entities are twisted assholes, and that nothing can be done to help them! Would that not make Nameless as unaccountable an overlord as Tyranshal proclaimed?
I really think Mercy is underrated here. It's what Suizhen would want! And there is still the matter of Zang Kong... having her in an amenable mood might help with negotiations!
- Location
- Canada
That's nonsense.
Yes, BPs will have an impact on the ending, but only a very minor one in comparison to the impact of the decision we make now.
And what impact do you think that decision will have on Aurelia and Suizhen? They will not be happy with Vengeance, that's for sure...
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
TBH I am really wondering what caused the Age of Grace to fall. The Elves are supernaturally perfect, so it would be very difficult to break down an 'Elven Empire'. Unless the Fates did something, like, uh, turn one of their Magnum Opus into creating a new Age or something.
I also wonder what Ages were like before the Fates murdered all the other Divinites.
I also wonder what Ages were like before the Fates murdered all the other Divinites.
What would the Elves and Aurelia want?
Rihaku
The Internet
Well, that's only if they find out. But yes, in a perfect world they would certainly prefer to know and be horrified, though if they are powerless enough before you the utter futility of the act might deter them...
Is this the distance between a Lackey and an Overlord!?
It can still come back! If you guys vote for it!
Killing the guys maintaining reality without knowing how or why they did what they did is extremely unwise. Annoying Suizhen is a small price to pay for not accidentally screwing the natural order forever.
EDIT: Also, being the Nameless Heaven, Master of the Fates, sounds cool.
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Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
The guys maintaining one aspect of reality murdered all the other guys who managed their aspect of reality though.
Though using the Necromancer to resurrect the Dead Gods would be nice. Assuming they don't like kill Nameless.
DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
I don't think we are deciding the fate of Mortal Spring here. We can make her tell us everything important!
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Ah, I like how utterly annihilating someone from this plane of existence is considered Mercy in comparison to other options.
Because Justice? Justice sounds like the Fates will get to be TNO's wage slaves forever. Ever and ever. And ever and ever and ever and ever.
I mean, still better than getting tortured to insanity and even further beyond, but hey. Suizhen thinks she has it hard? TNO hasn't even reached his final form!
Which is an omnipotent NEET with every pleasure imaginable at the tip of his fingers, I guess.
No, seriously, Suizhen. You are his friend, more or less. You get to see how he would exploit someone he won't be feeling guilty about doing so. It will be, eh, not glorious, not really.
Because Justice? Justice sounds like the Fates will get to be TNO's wage slaves forever. Ever and ever. And ever and ever and ever and ever.
I mean, still better than getting tortured to insanity and even further beyond, but hey. Suizhen thinks she has it hard? TNO hasn't even reached his final form!
Which is an omnipotent NEET with every pleasure imaginable at the tip of his fingers, I guess.
No, seriously, Suizhen. You are his friend, more or less. You get to see how he would exploit someone he won't be feeling guilty about doing so. It will be, eh, not glorious, not really.
I think we are.
Also, I would prefer to obtain my information from the guys with a power level cap instead of the girl with a potential beyond ours.