- Location
- Surrey
bonus points if the mothers can only communicate in gesticulations and monster roars.
really i just want to see unit-01 and gendo at Shinji's Parent-Teacher meeting.
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Evangelion Ideas Thread: You Can (Not) Rebuild
- Thread starter Teen Spirit
- Start date
bonus points if the mothers can only communicate in gesticulations and monster roars.
really i just want to see unit-01 and gendo at Shinji's Parent-Teacher meeting.
Yeah, like, the idea of playing a game that becomes real is just too crazy for anyone to consider.
Right?
Jumanji is also silly. It works because it's a pretty lighthearted movie that doesn't take itself too seriously.
It also has the benefit of not having an awkward crossover baggage to juggle. One canon being fiction inside another canon tends to come across as extremely jarring outside of crack fics.
Most importantly, however, turning Fate into a TRPG is just kinda pointless for the proposed idea since there are easier and more natural ways to achieve the same effect without going meta.
Heavy Fuel
Ask me for anything but time.
- Location
- 1123.6563.5321
I've had this idea knocking around in my head for a while now, for a crossover fic. Due to extenuating circumstances Shinji is raised in rural Idaho by horse rancher and former Marine Scout Sniper Bob Lee Swagger with the condition he has to join NERVE and accompanies him to Tokyo-3 when Gendo sends for him. As an officer of NERVE, the US Government briefs Swagger on the truth of Second Impact, Evas, and the coming Angels. Shinji spends his childhood learning to ride and take care of horses, how to shoot and hunt, and an appreciation for the land(how to live off it, and read terrain.)
Bob Lee's task is to learn the truth about SEELE and their plans, and keep his son alive.
I intend to use the book version of Bob Lee Swagger and tie the events of the books into the NGE-verse. The main Point of Convergence is the novel The 47th Samurai. I have some ideas on how the Swagger family may have crossed swords with SEELE members in the past, such as the rogue section of the CIA that tried to frame him in Point Of Impact could have been a group of SEELE operatives.
Bob Lee's task is to learn the truth about SEELE and their plans, and keep his son alive.
I intend to use the book version of Bob Lee Swagger and tie the events of the books into the NGE-verse. The main Point of Convergence is the novel The 47th Samurai. I have some ideas on how the Swagger family may have crossed swords with SEELE members in the past, such as the rogue section of the CIA that tried to frame him in Point Of Impact could have been a group of SEELE operatives.
- Location
- Surrey
If you're going to do an examination of culture clash I guess it could work, given that Shinji would end up a complete and total foreigner with his classmates in tokyo 3.
Also SEELE already runs the world and by extension the USA, so it'd be pretty easy for them to shutdown Swagger unless his orders are unofficial, and in that case you're just writing Kaji's arc twice.
Also SEELE already runs the world and by extension the USA, so it'd be pretty easy for them to shutdown Swagger unless his orders are unofficial, and in that case you're just writing Kaji's arc twice.
Heavy Fuel
Ask me for anything but time.
- Location
- 1123.6563.5321
Do you really think the US would just give up it's sovereignty? My idea was the Nevada branch of NERVE is made up of members of the US intelligence community and military-at least some in the government don't trust SEELE.
Actually, there's more for Swagger to do-he'd be present during the Angel battles to offer advice and have some authority to issue orders. Imagine if someone who knew what he was doing had been there to take charge during the Bardiel fight?
Over the course of the novels Swagger makes many friends and contacts-the US Military, FBI, US State Department (including the CIA), JSDF, and even a few on the shady side, such as the Russian Mob. His daughter works for a major news network as well.
Shinji would still have lived his first 5 or 6 years raised in Japan, and he would still have to keep up with his Japanese. (Swagger had to spend a good while in Japan, and learned a fair bit about the culture, and he'd make sure Shinji does too.)
I kind of had this idea Kaji and Bob Lee could help each other out. He'd certainly have a better chance of survival with Swagger around.
Actually, there's more for Swagger to do-he'd be present during the Angel battles to offer advice and have some authority to issue orders. Imagine if someone who knew what he was doing had been there to take charge during the Bardiel fight?
Over the course of the novels Swagger makes many friends and contacts-the US Military, FBI, US State Department (including the CIA), JSDF, and even a few on the shady side, such as the Russian Mob. His daughter works for a major news network as well.
Shinji would still have lived his first 5 or 6 years raised in Japan, and he would still have to keep up with his Japanese. (Swagger had to spend a good while in Japan, and learned a fair bit about the culture, and he'd make sure Shinji does too.)
I kind of had this idea Kaji and Bob Lee could help each other out. He'd certainly have a better chance of survival with Swagger around.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Two answers:
1) Frankly, in the NGE verse, yes. All countries have surrendered their nuclear weapons, all of them, to the UN, and have contributed men and material to a UN standing military. So in the NGE verse, national sovereignty is much, much weaker anyway and things are much more tightly controlled by the UN... which is in turn controlled by SEELE, a major reason why SEELE is so powerful.
2) Officially, SEELE doesn't exist. It is nothing you could officially surrender power to. But they have their agents everywhere. Quite frankly, I'd rather expect the CIA to be controlled by them, and any rogue elements to be operating against them.
It's not just a question of language, but of general behaviour and attitudes. Americans being loud, individualist, etc by Japanese standards, that is. And also just... daily life in Japan. Such simple things as bowing instead of shaking hands and so on and so forth.
(really, that is something that should already have been going on with Asuka, but then Asuka was supposed to be a foreigner-in-name-only...)
- Location
- California
I read one bizarre fic years ago which had Shinji bringing Kaworu home to meet his parents. The stern Commander Ikari who spent half the meal trying to kill him, and the other half trying to recruit him against SEELE, and the giant bio-mechanical monstrosity Unit 1.
I wish I could remember the name of the story. It was a trip.
I could see Asuka going out of her way to make sure she at least had the basics of Social Etiquette for her new country down. After all, that is what an adult would do. She usually only slips into the haughty european when she's around Shinji or Rei.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
I think there is another mechanism at play there. Basically, to put it bluntly, Asuka is kissing up and kicking down. Asuka, of course is always looking so much for validation, for people to pay attention to her, for authority figures to pay attention to her, because she never had that in her life (mother died, father cast her off, ever changing guardians at NERV - never really a family [and NERV is to blame for that]). So she hungers for getting acknowledged by authority figures, and hence is in the end, no matter how much she might complain, always compliant with what she is told. Meanwhile, Shinji and Rei are peers, so over them she tries to demonstrate superiority. While this is all very understandable with her background, well, it still does amount to "kissing up and kicking down".
- Location
- America
This is the same branch that wipes itself and everything 50 miles around it off the map trying to give Unit-04 an S2 engine, yes?
Conventional weapons are still a joke against Angels, the Children still hesitate to attack when it could mean killing another person, the Dummy System is still used to override Unit-01's control. We already have someone that knows what he's doing taking control in that fight, and his name is Gendo Ikari.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
That would be the same Gendo Ikari who forwards-deploys the EVAs nearly all the way up to Tokyo-2 (the Mastushiro facility is in Tokyo-2, and the mountain pass where they intercept Bardiel/EVA-03, a real existing pass, is nearly all the way up to there), instead of awaiting its arrival in the fortress city specifically designed for angel fights, which would have given them both more time to prepare and a battleground of their choosing, with EVA lifts, umbilical cord ports, weapon resupply towers etc etc everywhere? And the same Gendo Ikari who posted the EVAs so that Bardiel could easily defeat them one by one?
Yeah, no. That battle clearly showed why he needs an Operations Director, because he himself cannot into tactics.
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- Location
- Who even cares?
I'm pretty sure he did that one deliberately.
- Location
- JRRI Camp, Idaho
y tho
I mean, if you're going to say because he wanted to test the DS... there are way better ways to do that.
- Location
- California
Maybe, maybe not. Don't forget, we find out that the Eva can shut down the DS if they want to. It's possible Gendo set up the situation to ensure that Yui would have as few reasons to override his control as possible. Such as, say, putting her beloved son into imminent danger. That wouldn't be as much of the case if he was deployed in Tokyo 3 with reinforcements and a quick escape path.
- Location
- Spain
Well, yeah. But did Gendo know that at the time of Bardiel? He was mighty surprised about the DS not working during Zeruel, after all.
- Location
- Surrey
Unit-01 only rejected the DS after it had horrifically traumatized her only son. That was why it stopped working, she associated it with Shinji's pain and immediately refused it.
Besides, if he really 'just' wanted to test the DS against an Angel why not turn it on at the beginning and skip the whole argument with Shinji? He only turned it on after Shinji point blank refused to do his job and all the other evas were beaten. Even Gendo, stupid as he is, isn't dumb enough to consciously cripple his own hand.
Besides, if he really 'just' wanted to test the DS against an Angel why not turn it on at the beginning and skip the whole argument with Shinji? He only turned it on after Shinji point blank refused to do his job and all the other evas were beaten. Even Gendo, stupid as he is, isn't dumb enough to consciously cripple his own hand.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Which of course raises the question why the DPs were never properly tested. I mean, clearly those things work. The Bardiel fight has shown that. And for all of EVA-01's "brutality", it was actually clearly directed at EVA-03/Bardiel. There didn't seem to be any collateral damage. The only problem is that their first activation so traumatized Shinji that they then didn't work anymore. So imagine that instead the DPs are properly tested and introduced. No trauma for Shinji involved, so the DPs continue to work right. The pilots could then be outright replaced by DPs (well, at least EVA-01 and EVA-00. EVA-02 was said to be installed with one, but that shouldn't actually work...)
(Now you could comment that means there's nobody who can prevent Gendo's or SEELE's plans, but uh... well, it's not like that worked out very well in canon. Plus, if Shinji doesn't leave outright, Rei might still decide for him, and he'd be in a stabler state of mind then.)
(Now you could comment that means there's nobody who can prevent Gendo's or SEELE's plans, but uh... well, it's not like that worked out very well in canon. Plus, if Shinji doesn't leave outright, Rei might still decide for him, and he'd be in a stabler state of mind then.)
The Englanderish
Schrödinger's Kuudere Kitty Caliph(a)
- Location
- Califat de Chats
Given SEELE deploys a fully functional dummy system in EoE, I think it's fair to say that they were - just that the testbed was away from the Geofront, for whatever reason.
- Location
- Surrey
The dummy systems were shown in EoE to be far inferior to a trained pilot, requiring 9 on 1 odds, plus infinite energy, regeneration, and superweapons to win.
Plus, given some of Ritsuko's comments the Rei-type DPs seem to be full of issues beyond just their combat efficacy, especially given that Unit-02 is launched against Armisael with Asuka, a girl who can't even move her Evangelion, instead of a dummy plug.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
On the other hand, DP EVA-01 defeated Bardiel without problems (literally started to win the moment it was activated), whereas EVA-00 had been easily defeated and EVA-02 swept aside in a manner of literally seconds. Seeing that the MP EVAs were a completely new type of EVAs, plus running on a different DP (Kaworu DP), I think the Bardiel fight is the more appropriate comparison.
Of course, the Doylist explanation here is that the DP will be sufficient when the plot demands it to be sufficient and not sufficient when the plot demands it to be not sufficient, so we're both engaging in over-analysis here
The only thing Ritsuko notices is that the DPs are also used as spare parts for Rei...
Eh, in Doylist terms, at that point DPs simply weren't a concern anymore. Plus, what Misato actually ordered was a retreat. That would literally have been just a few step backwards. So "the DP can't do that" can't have been the concern.
In Watsonian terms - well, as I've said, it is stated that EVA-02 is equipped with one, but it shouldn't actually work. After all, the cross-synch test was a feasibility test for the Dummy Plug. Rei was shown to be able to synch with both EVA-01 and EVA-00, because (as Ritsuko comments to Maya) her values are so similar to Shinji's (most likely due to the genetic link). So EVA-02, which has a soul totally unconnected to Rei, and which wasn't even tested in the cross-synch test, shouldn't work with Rei's DP. If it does, one has to wonder what that feasibility test was even for!
But that was a completely different (Kaworu-based) DP system. Besides, that just shifts the question to either "Why didn't NERV use that data then" or if the data wasn't available to then "why didn't it make own tests". It can't really have been "the tests showed the DP to not work" because it clearly does work against Bardiel, and that exceptionally so.
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- Location
- Surrey
Honestly with how weird the Bardiel fight is I feel that the ending was less 'The Dummy Plug is very functional' and more 'the Dummy Plug forced a berserk state so Unit-01 won'. At no point do we see anyone giving the system orders beyond 'turn on/turn off' so it doesn't seem to be something with any fine control. This inability to truly control it would explain why it is never used again, especially as the Angels after Bardiel can't be beaten with mindless force.
The total unconnection between Rei and Kyoko wouldn't matter, since Shinji is shown in episode 08 to be able to sync to Unit-02, with literally zero previous connections to it, so the dummy plug would still be able to synchronize with Unit-02.
The total unconnection between Rei and Kyoko wouldn't matter, since Shinji is shown in episode 08 to be able to sync to Unit-02, with literally zero previous connections to it, so the dummy plug would still be able to synchronize with Unit-02.
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- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Eh, that seems to be a rather extravagant additional assumption, IMO. As it is, "the DP worked" is perfectly workable as explanation and requires no extra assumption. And yes, the DP is entirely autonomous, and not a remote control for the EVAs. It literally is a mind-copy of Rei (that is the purpose of her mind upload, which is done only once and that in preparation of the DP - I think the common fan conception that Rei gets regular mind uploads to give to her clone if need be is wrong. Since Kyoko and Yui clearly recognize and hence remember their children we can assume memory follows soul). So we basically have a more mindless version of Rei fighting there. But that was in fact enough to defeat Bardiel.
Whether it would have been enough to beat Arael - well, a piloted EVA couldn't do that either. It did require the Spear of Longinus. In fact, since there is no soul for Arael to mindrape, a DP EVA might even fare better here. Armisael... well, Rei did use the self-destruct system. A DP based off her might do the same. Though of course, it does seem a more mindless and less inhibited version of her mind, so who knows. And as for Kaworu - all you need is Rei's AT Field to cancel out his. Then even a gun would do the same job as the EVA hand in canon. Kaworu is an angel where you a) can't use an EVA to defeat the angel but b) don't need one, either. It all comes down to Rei.
Only in dual-synch with Asuka. I think the facts that Asuka pilots the EVA with her mother's soul inside, Shinji pilots the EVA with his mother's soul inside (and can pilot the EVA with his mother's clone's soul) and Rei pilots the EVA with, uh, her inside (and can pilot the EVA with her genedonor's soul inside) does mean that something. Plus of course that class 2A is the class of potential pilots and nobody there seems to have a living mother. It does seem that in order to synchronize, you do need to have an EVA with the pilot's mother's soul inside. If cross-synching were that easy, most likely EVA-02 would have been part of the cross-synch test.
Given that, I conclude that the only reason that Shinji showed a synch-rate with EVA-02 was because he was in there with Asuka. Plus, the cross-synch test was literally testing if Rei (and hence her DP) can synch with EVA-00 and EVA-01. If EVA-02 had truly been meant for a working DP, they would have put her in EVA-02 and tested that as well; but that didn't happen.
- Location
- Surrey
Given that Bardiel went from completely trashing the Evas to not even being able to put up a fight, the dummy plug forcing a berserk state (and with it the associated power boost) makes a lot more sense than 'suddenly Bardiel completely and totally choked, allowing the mindless dummy plug to take it out with ease'.
Against Zeruel, the dummy plug's mindless attack would've just been countered with lasers to the face until it died.
Against Arael it wouldn't have been able to do anything since it wouldn't be smart enough to go grab the Lance. Not to mention what effect the pain beam would have on a berserking monster without a target to reach.
Armisael was only beaten because Rei inverted her AT Field to keep it in place for the self-destruct. A dummy Plug wouldn't have been able to do that and would either end up completely consumed, ensuring the doom of Tokyo-3, or the self-destruct would be triggered and Armisael would escape, destroying the city for no gain.
And Kaworu is basically invincible anyway, so he doesn't really count.
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- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Or the Dummy Plug is just so good. And it kinda makes sense - it doesn't feel pain. It isn't inhibited by anything. So Bardiel's chokehold on EVA-01? DP don't care!
Against Zeruel... well, Shinji in canon nearly had it, even before Yui took over. A mindless DP fighting the same savage way as Shinji did might be able to do the same. Of course, in canon that wasn't enough, and the DP's inability to trigger a berserk state (after all, it isn't the child's soul in there...) might be problematic here.
Maybe? Though I still think there would have been at least one pilot still there, Asuka. Without Shinji being the shining hero against Zeruel again, her downward spiral might not have started. Of course, that runs into the problem of "letting a non-Rei pilot into Terminal Dogma".
Armisael - okay, yes, good point. Rei's inverted AT Field. Hm. I have to concede that point.
However, I'll note that Gendo had zero problems with Shinji quitting his job after Bardiel. He clearly thought the DPs were up to the task as pilot replacements, and even still thought so when Zeruel attacked.
- Location
- Surrey
Shinji fought with skill against Zeruel, while against Bardiel the best the dummy plug could do was thrash mindlessly. It would've been hit by every attack Shinji dodged, and most likely been destroyed since it would not be able to rouse the Evangelion's protective instinct or access any of its higher powers.
The dummy plug can't be that good if all it has is an inability to feel pain, otherwise it would've been used in Unit-00 against Zeruel instead of launching it with Rei. Especially as it's brought up in the Classified Information files that merely activating an Evangelion is the best the Dummy Plugs can do. So uncontrolled berserking is likely all you can ever make a Rei-type DP do.
If Asuka's there the dummy plug would likely attack her if it fell under Arael's influence. And again, the Rei-type dummy plug is a mindless berserker. It can't be ordered around or told to use weapons so against Arael it's worse than useless.
Gendo is terrified of his son/ hates him and also believed his wife would not mind the pain he directly caused the son she loved very much, so his judgement is not exactly trustworthy.
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