We Just Write
Blatantly Plural
- Location
- New England
- Pronouns
- Plural
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[Dungeoncore SI] Purple glows in Dark Places
- Thread starter Mechanis
- Start date
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
Warp-lightning cannon shots... don't exactly work like normal lighting bolts. you can redirect them like normal lightning, sorta, but the Warp Bullshit involved in their operation produces exotic effects that can make doing so difficult or even hazardous. Gremlin lightning cannons, on the other hand, are more 'normal' magical lightning, in that other than being able to travel parallel to the ground for a considerable distance and counting as magic for anti-magic defenses the bolts generated act like conventional electrical weapons. almost a magical electrolaser, really.
Gremlins do not currently have any indirect-fire weapons, other than crude jerry-rigged grenades*, but the Skaven possess a panoply of such- the infamous Poison-wind Globadeers and Mortars, Pestilens Plague-claw catapults, and of course Rat-ogres are perfectly capable of throwing things. Grey Seers (especially those even approaching as powerful as Thanquol,) being a Skaven sort of Wizard, are also capable of acting as artillery with certain spells, and individual Skaven of standing such as Master Moulders or Warlock-engineers may develop individual machines (or creatures, in clan Moulder's case) of such nature.
and of course building more conventional one-off catapults or trebuchets is completely within their capabilities given access to the materials needed to do so.
The SI has indeed read Titan of Steel, and several other Dungeon stories.
The Skaven are insane. no, literally, their behavior is based on what happens to real-life rats that live in massively overpopulated confined spaces, like, say, literally every Skaven settlement ever. You'd basically have to steal an infant at the moment of birth and raise them totally separate from their own culture to get one that doesn't have the race's collective psychosis, which... okay, I'm not going to say it's impossible, but it'd be a lot of work, and if the individual was ever re-introduced to the general skaven population they'd go nuts in short order and make the whole thing a waste of effort.
*Eg, throwing lit sticks of dynamite at things, or flasks of excitable chemicals, or other things of that nature- not purpose-built weapons, but highly dangerous equipment or tools.
- Location
- LEO
Maybe a project? See if some of them can be rehabilitated? Because you are going to conquer a city eventually, and eventually have to deal with some captured pups.
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
and frankly, it's just not worth it- the very traits that make the Skaven so goddamn dangerous are the ones that such a rehabilitation effort would remove- their endless numbers, utter disregard for safe engineering, crazy Warpstone magic, bioweapons and callus 'we have reserves' command style are all products of their collective insanity, and without it, the offer no real advantage to offset the ongoing risk of relapse and risk of meddling by the Horned Rat, who is effectively a 'minor' Chaos God and thus something of a problem.
of course, the SI's plan to turn Skavenblight into a smoldering crater- or possibly a volcanic caldera- will piss off said god, but seeing as doing so would destroy the very foundations of Skaven civilization and considerably reduce the Rat's ability to act directly at the same time, there wouldn't be a whole lot he could do about it.
not to mention the Skaven lifecycle in general is preeety horrifying and mostly powered by Warpstone anyway, it really just isn't worth the effort; not with Chaos, Orks, Chaos, Vampires, Chaos, Tomb Kings, Chaos, Dark Elves, Chaos, and did we mention goddamn fucking Chaos!? around generally being far more important problems.
I mean, maybe in some sort of ideal future where the polar rifts are sealed up, all the undead running around have gone back to being regular dead, every Ork and Goblin on the planet has been incinerated, the Dark Elves have been stomped on, the various Chaos cults rousted out, whatever probably-warp-related nastiness the Ogre's 'Great Maw' is dealt with, and that goddamn moon has been thrown into a sun or a black hole or something, then yes, it might be worth trying.
of course, the SI's plan to turn Skavenblight into a smoldering crater- or possibly a volcanic caldera- will piss off said god, but seeing as doing so would destroy the very foundations of Skaven civilization and considerably reduce the Rat's ability to act directly at the same time, there wouldn't be a whole lot he could do about it.
not to mention the Skaven lifecycle in general is preeety horrifying and mostly powered by Warpstone anyway, it really just isn't worth the effort; not with Chaos, Orks, Chaos, Vampires, Chaos, Tomb Kings, Chaos, Dark Elves, Chaos, and did we mention goddamn fucking Chaos!? around generally being far more important problems.
I mean, maybe in some sort of ideal future where the polar rifts are sealed up, all the undead running around have gone back to being regular dead, every Ork and Goblin on the planet has been incinerated, the Dark Elves have been stomped on, the various Chaos cults rousted out, whatever probably-warp-related nastiness the Ogre's 'Great Maw' is dealt with, and that goddamn moon has been thrown into a sun or a black hole or something, then yes, it might be worth trying.
- Location
- Somewhere left of nowhere near anywhere
LMFAO looked at the link you, well, um, linked and couldn't stop laughing at the End times part.
Bloody Skaven, just kill them all and burn the bodies for good measure, Then pour acid on the ashes.
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
that doesn't even cover the whole story- TLDR, the Grey Seers pulled it closer to the earth at the behest of the Horned Rat, causing all sorts of disasters and crazyness, then clan Skyre basically went "We can't let those panzy preistlings show us up in the realm of destroying stuff! we's gon blow us up a moon!" and then they blew up a moon. as the millions of tons of Warpstone crashed down on their everything, the only thing they said was "WORTH IT!"
- Location
- Poland
@Mechanis, how would SI prevent Skavens and others from capturing Gremlin's weapons, and either using them against SI, or reverse-engineering them and using the result against SI and other enemies (like SI did, both variants)?
With Lightning tech it would be theoretically possible to produce rail gun. The real-life disadvantages of railgun, namely quick wear of rails, and large flash of light at firing, wouldn't be much of a problem for Dungeoncore... probably.
I wonder if it would be possible to create a round or a rocket with shaped charge (HEAT round) for heavily armored targets like Doomwheels and powered armor? I don't think it would be possible for Skavens and others to develop reactive armor; in case of Doomwheels there is not good place to put it, I think.
When SI develops proper cannons, be it muzzle-loading or breach-loading ones (I think slings/slingstaffs + grenades/Molotov cocktails, hwacha and catapults / onagers should be developed first, a la Belisarius Saga and other alternate history fiction), I hope that he would remember when to use solid shot bouncing round, when to use canister, and when to use airburst grenade:
With Lightning tech it would be theoretically possible to produce rail gun. The real-life disadvantages of railgun, namely quick wear of rails, and large flash of light at firing, wouldn't be much of a problem for Dungeoncore... probably.
I wonder if it would be possible to create a round or a rocket with shaped charge (HEAT round) for heavily armored targets like Doomwheels and powered armor? I don't think it would be possible for Skavens and others to develop reactive armor; in case of Doomwheels there is not good place to put it, I think.
When SI develops proper cannons, be it muzzle-loading or breach-loading ones (I think slings/slingstaffs + grenades/Molotov cocktails, hwacha and catapults / onagers should be developed first, a la Belisarius Saga and other alternate history fiction), I hope that he would remember when to use solid shot bouncing round, when to use canister, and when to use airburst grenade:
- Location
- United States
"We aren't cunts."
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
In order: Gremlin Mundane tech is either already within the Skaven's technological capability or requires materials science they'd have no clue how to even begin replicating (mostly Aluminium) and Gremlin Mana-tech requires magic knowledge that the Gremlin's aren't exactly going to be handing out to the Skaven anyway. if a warlock-engneer got their hands on an intact mana-rifle, then, yeah, they might be able to figure out a 'near enough' replica, but Lightning Cannons are far too easy to sabotage- the things are mostly stone, after all, a couple of Thwakers or well-placed explosives can turn them to a pile of useless rubble in short order.
Railguns using lightning generation based on the lightning-cannon would, entirely aside from the issues of tuneing the things to work as a power-source rather than a weapon, have all the issues that plague real-life railguns- wear of the rails, yes, but also the issue of needing to have all your electromagnets perfectly aligned and perfectly timed or the thing tears itself apart, explodes, sends the projectile off-bore, loses massive amounts of throw power, or some combination of the above... and every shot causes everything to de-align and need to be re-centered and repaired. that, and it's just be overkill- there's nothing in setting (barring greater deamons or the like, perhaps) that wouldn't URK at 18" naval rifles, for example, and those are a lot simpler to build.
Doomwheels are mostly wood. 'powered' armor pretty much boils down to 'possessed by Daemons' and isn't all that good anyway. Even Steam Tanks are only 'armored' in the context of late medieval weaponry, we're talking 'muzzle-loading black-powder muskets are Rare Expensive Special Weapons' level tech here. the Gremlins, meanwhile, have a late Victorian to early WWI base tech level, and a font of modern knowlage working to widen that gap as far as possible. frankly, 'conventional' explosive artillery shells will just delete 99% of all possable things the Gremlins might be shooting them at, and the things they wouldn't are shit like Greater Deamons where mere conventional force wouldn't do shit anyways.
and as the setting already has reasonably good black-powder weapons, the need to develop things like that from scratch is nonexistent- mana weapons are better than those for infantry applications anyway, powder-fired weapons are always going to be specialist weapons/indirect artillery.
ltmauve
"Excuse me?"
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Wait, what?
Railguns are literally just two rails and an armature/projectile.
Aren't coilguns the ones that require the precise timing?
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
nope. Railguns and Coilguns are both EM-driven weapons with their own issues- with railguns, the rails' em feilds, if not perfectly balanced, cause them to warp (in addition to friction wear, naturally) while coilguns can suffer implosion/explosion issues. this is the issue with using super-powerful magnetic fields to make things move really, really fast. this kind of issue even happens to maglev trains, though to a much lesser extent due to the lower velocities (and, therefore, lower field power and greater tolerances) involved.
I mean, you could drive a 'railgun' with rockets or a conventional propellant, but there's no reason to- a conventional propellant railgun would be better replaced with a normal rifle, and using a rocket powered one, well, you might as well just build a regular missile. the whole point of 'railguns as a weapon' as that, as an EM-based weapon, your ammuntion is inert and thus doesn't explode if hit- and you can carry more of it, since you're dropping something like half to two-thirds the volume per unit- sabots are a lot smaller than shells, after all.
well that and a working railgun has a much better volume-to-firepower ratio, so you can either mount ones the same relative size as a conventional gun for Ludicrous Gibs or mount a lot more of them in the same space... or cram them onto smaller, faster, harder to detect and harder to hit platforms. a theoretical railgun replacement for the Arlington Burke-class' 5" could hole an Iowa*, for example, which is why the US military has been pouring money into their development for decades despite a truly combat-viable system remaining vaporware. sort of like the Tactical High Energy Laser and other laser weaponry- the technical challenges are immense, but they crop up every couple of budget cycles.
*assuming white-room conditions and a direct face-on hit, anyway, which is basically impossible practically because the ocean won't obligingly stop moving even if the crew of said hypothetical Iowa were not frantically maneuvering to angle their armor, and also not shooting back.
I mean, you could drive a 'railgun' with rockets or a conventional propellant, but there's no reason to- a conventional propellant railgun would be better replaced with a normal rifle, and using a rocket powered one, well, you might as well just build a regular missile. the whole point of 'railguns as a weapon' as that, as an EM-based weapon, your ammuntion is inert and thus doesn't explode if hit- and you can carry more of it, since you're dropping something like half to two-thirds the volume per unit- sabots are a lot smaller than shells, after all.
well that and a working railgun has a much better volume-to-firepower ratio, so you can either mount ones the same relative size as a conventional gun for Ludicrous Gibs or mount a lot more of them in the same space... or cram them onto smaller, faster, harder to detect and harder to hit platforms. a theoretical railgun replacement for the Arlington Burke-class' 5" could hole an Iowa*, for example, which is why the US military has been pouring money into their development for decades despite a truly combat-viable system remaining vaporware. sort of like the Tactical High Energy Laser and other laser weaponry- the technical challenges are immense, but they crop up every couple of budget cycles.
*assuming white-room conditions and a direct face-on hit, anyway, which is basically impossible practically because the ocean won't obligingly stop moving even if the crew of said hypothetical Iowa were not frantically maneuvering to angle their armor, and also not shooting back.
- Location
- Poland
I wonder if it would be possible to modify mana-based weaponry (like mana-rifles) to charge only in the Dungeoncore-claimed area. You would still be able to fire them outside, they would just have limited number of shots outside the dungeon.
Skavens have their own Lightning Cannons (with advantages: namely not being blocked by anti-magic shields, and disadvantages: tendency to explode), but I guess you are talking about other factions.
You are thinking about coilguns (aka Gauss rifles). There is no tuning needed for railguns. You just need set of two parallel conducting rails in the barrel (they need to be solidly mounted, as the Lorentz force would try to spread them apart), conducting projectile or projectile in conducting armature / sabot, and a source of high-amperage current on instant. Usually you would use capacitors for the current (which should be possible even with Victorian-era tech, they would be just much larger), but lightning requires the same high-amperage current, so lightning generator should also suffice.
In railgun the source of current / the switch, the rails and the projectile or armature form a closed loop with high current in it. High current generates high stream of magnetic field. The Lentz rule says that the force would try to reduce suddenly switched on magnetic stream; the only possibility is to increase the area by moving the projectile. Alternatively, you can see it as Lorentz force from magnetic field (generated by the electric current) acting on moving electrons (the current that pass through it) in the armature.
BTW. what clockwork tech should be good at, is precise timing (so e.g. V-3 like staged propulsion gun should be possible... in unnecessary, as anti-tank / anti-materiel rifle equivalent should be enough against any armor SI would be against).
The SI just needs to introduce the machine-gun or equivalent (for covering fire), and fire and motion tactics. Whether independent squads or larger units in formation would be better would depend on weaponry, both wielded by Gremlins, and by their enemies.
- Location
- Canada
Doesn't the Zumwalt have a functional railgun? They were shooting it off by Virginia Beach a few years back if I remember right.
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
Just a little teaser for the next chapter, which might end up being a bit long:
"After the tumultuous events of the Karag Dum expedition's return from across the Chaos Wastes, fate seemed to have given myself and my Slayer companion something of a reprieve. Indeed, the resolution of that mission seemed to have lifted some burden from my companion's mind, for he displayed erratic bouts of uncharacteristic good humor thereafter. We opted to travel south once more, often as caravan guards, and indeed by that means crossed the entirety of the Empire in just under a year; seeing very little in the way of battle- the occasional Highwayman rarely pressed any issue when confronted with my companion, and those that did were dispatched with alacrity. This continued even as we passed west, out of the Empire and into the southern edges of Brittonia, by then chasing rumors of odd omens and Orkish activity among the Irana Mountains. To that end, we took up with the smaller traders who ventured into isolated mountain settlements there, and for nearly four months had no issue, save the occasional suspicious settler. This would change when, having finished a commission to one of the larger settlements, our caravan was set upon by Orkish raiders mounted upon great wolves. In the confusion, Gotrek and myself were driven away from the caravan and into a nearby mine, the likes of which dotted the mountains, which the Orks collapsed rather than pursue us- likely, I suspected even then, because we had between us killed nearly two dozen of their number on foot. This was but a footnote in the events to come, however, as we soon would encounter both an old foe and new allies of most unusual providence…"
-Excerpt, My Travels with Gotrek, Auth. Felix Jaeger.
oh, and one last thing- for those unfamiliar with the actual geography of the Old World, This is Basically Google Maps, Old World Edition, and is complied from every available map at the time of its creation. 29,952 pixels wide by 22,528 pixels tall.
-------------------------------------------------------------------$-------------------------------------------------------------------
"After the tumultuous events of the Karag Dum expedition's return from across the Chaos Wastes, fate seemed to have given myself and my Slayer companion something of a reprieve. Indeed, the resolution of that mission seemed to have lifted some burden from my companion's mind, for he displayed erratic bouts of uncharacteristic good humor thereafter. We opted to travel south once more, often as caravan guards, and indeed by that means crossed the entirety of the Empire in just under a year; seeing very little in the way of battle- the occasional Highwayman rarely pressed any issue when confronted with my companion, and those that did were dispatched with alacrity. This continued even as we passed west, out of the Empire and into the southern edges of Brittonia, by then chasing rumors of odd omens and Orkish activity among the Irana Mountains. To that end, we took up with the smaller traders who ventured into isolated mountain settlements there, and for nearly four months had no issue, save the occasional suspicious settler. This would change when, having finished a commission to one of the larger settlements, our caravan was set upon by Orkish raiders mounted upon great wolves. In the confusion, Gotrek and myself were driven away from the caravan and into a nearby mine, the likes of which dotted the mountains, which the Orks collapsed rather than pursue us- likely, I suspected even then, because we had between us killed nearly two dozen of their number on foot. This was but a footnote in the events to come, however, as we soon would encounter both an old foe and new allies of most unusual providence…"
-Excerpt, My Travels with Gotrek, Auth. Felix Jaeger.
-------------------------------------------------------------------$-------------------------------------------------------------------
oh, and one last thing- for those unfamiliar with the actual geography of the Old World, This is Basically Google Maps, Old World Edition, and is complied from every available map at the time of its creation. 29,952 pixels wide by 22,528 pixels tall.
Seeing as your Gremlins are unlikely to have signed any treaties that would prohibit chemical weapons, would it be possible to gas the skaven with things like mustard gas or devise weapons that spew large volumes of HFSO3 (Fluorosulfuric acid) upon the invaders? Also would it be possible to create bullets tipped with alkaline metals to poison the injuries made?
- Location
- Somewhere left of nowhere near anywhere
It's cute that you think there are treaties
. Especially for ones that prevent the use of viable weapons in a Warhammer setting.
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
yeah, the main reason Gremlins aren't using gas is because the SI considers the weapons too indiscriminate to use around friendly forces, and the fact that the Skaven do have anti-chemical-warfare kit.
and while 'poisoned bullets' come up a lot, just like in real life it's far more effective to use something like RIP rounds or (for the gremlins at least) a mana-tech weapon instead. most gunpowder weapons the SI might field (at least anytime soon) are likely to be more along the lines of crew-served field guns, so getting fancy with the ammo is just overkill. a twelve-pound cannon will kill the crap out of most anything it gets shot at, it doesn't need to also be shooting radioactive cannonballs or whatever.
really, using a bullet as a poison delivery mechanism is generally the realm of fantasy- anything smeared on the bullet or something before firing would get burned off during firing, and anything inside the bullet, well, you might as well just use a hollowpoint. plus, more practically, most of the things Gremlins might be shooting have pretty high poison resistance anyway- orcs and goblins are pretty hard to poison, Skaven are notoriously resistant to both poisons and plagues, and Chaos forces, well, maybe you could get a skrub-teir Tzeench-worshiper with that kind of thing, but Khornites would just power through it, Nurgalites would laugh at it, and most Slanneshi cultists probably do lines of way worse crap off eachother's thighs every Tuesday. and the undead- yeah, good luck with that.
sadly, the factions that don't have strong resistance or outright immunity to most toxins are also the ones the SI doesn't actually want to fight. they'll just have to be content with introducing the Old World to machine-guns, Tanks, fixed-wing aircraft, and the Star League's favorite naval tactic*.
*"I kills it with my Battleships."
and while 'poisoned bullets' come up a lot, just like in real life it's far more effective to use something like RIP rounds or (for the gremlins at least) a mana-tech weapon instead. most gunpowder weapons the SI might field (at least anytime soon) are likely to be more along the lines of crew-served field guns, so getting fancy with the ammo is just overkill. a twelve-pound cannon will kill the crap out of most anything it gets shot at, it doesn't need to also be shooting radioactive cannonballs or whatever.
really, using a bullet as a poison delivery mechanism is generally the realm of fantasy- anything smeared on the bullet or something before firing would get burned off during firing, and anything inside the bullet, well, you might as well just use a hollowpoint. plus, more practically, most of the things Gremlins might be shooting have pretty high poison resistance anyway- orcs and goblins are pretty hard to poison, Skaven are notoriously resistant to both poisons and plagues, and Chaos forces, well, maybe you could get a skrub-teir Tzeench-worshiper with that kind of thing, but Khornites would just power through it, Nurgalites would laugh at it, and most Slanneshi cultists probably do lines of way worse crap off eachother's thighs every Tuesday. and the undead- yeah, good luck with that.
sadly, the factions that don't have strong resistance or outright immunity to most toxins are also the ones the SI doesn't actually want to fight. they'll just have to be content with introducing the Old World to machine-guns, Tanks, fixed-wing aircraft, and the Star League's favorite naval tactic*.
*"I kills it with my Battleships."
- Location
- Canada
Should introduce attack helicopters as well. For all their potential gyrocopters carry way too small a payload to be effective as anything other than scouts. Attack helicopters would make excellent monster hunters.
- Location
- Somewhere left of nowhere near anywhere
I can see it now, mages and sorcerers knocking them out of the sky. Honestly compared to dragons, phoenix's or the weird multi headed dragon thing from chaos, not to mention all the vampire and tomb lords flying units that would wipe them out pretty easily.
Though a flight unit would be pretty useful if it can be done on a single soldier, it would be far more maneuverable and serve even more uses. Kinda like Tanya von Degurechaff from the cartoon "The Saga of Tanya the Evil" (Pic supplied here, here and here) it also keeps with the magi-tech theme.
- Location
- Canada
See the issue is that you can mass produce attack helicopters and (as we can see with Gyrocopters) shit is actually really bad at knocking them out of the sky. You are also vastly underestimating their payload. An attack helicopter can do vastly more damage than a dragon and doesn't require 1000 years of raising it for the device to function. Your anime references look nothing like mages from Warhammer or Spiral Knights.
Essentially you are vastly overrating magic in these settings.
We Just Write
Blatantly Plural
- Location
- New England
- Pronouns
- Plural
Besides, the local wizards have a nasty tendency to explode if they overdo the magic.