King_Rule
The Guy With The Things.
- Location
- Yes
Same. Loudest I've laughed in years.
Dragonball Z Abridged
- Thread starter Winged Knight
- Start date
- Anime
Same. Loudest I've laughed in years.
Yep.
Like the joke went, "He's so dumb. But he's so cool! But he's so dumb!"
Concept wise, Broly was neat and his fight very much lived up to the hype of the Legendary Super Saiyan with him taking on every one of the Z-Fighters that matter at once and wiping the floor with them.
On the down side, most of the movie was boring as shit and Broly's "motivation" was garbage.
The fight and Broly's design is what won people's hearts. Everything else, not so much.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
Lets be fair.
Minions would have been wasted in this one, even if the New Vegeta army would have been a perfect place to have some.
Would have meant less Broly Action.
Now some actual banter and a proper plot on the other hand...
Private Lee O'Malley
Easygoing Egoist
- Location
- Gensokyo
I like how the subs continue to refer to Trunks as "Princess Trunks".
EDIT: Actually the subs have a bunch of neat little gags here n' there. (Such as "Vegeta blows his load/Vegeta blows his load AGAIN." or referring to him as "King Vegeta II".)
EDIT: Actually the subs have a bunch of neat little gags here n' there. (Such as "Vegeta blows his load/Vegeta blows his load AGAIN." or referring to him as "King Vegeta II".)
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
Broly had banter in the first movie
Nidhoggr
Suletta Permetta
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Broly had banter here. It was actually pretty clever, especially the "What's a King to a God?" bit.
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I don't know what's going on any more
Having the dad fight, even if briefly or one-sidedly, would've been something.
Nidhoggr
Suletta Permetta
- Pronouns
- He/Him
"Oh god, Daddy!" "Oh no, no no no no no. That's my name. It's actually pronounced; 'Dah-Di'." "HARDER, DADDY!" "Now that one was what you thought it was."
- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
My favorite bit was when Piccolo showed up out of fucking nowhere to save Gohan again and the subtitles named him "GOHAN'S DAD."
Xicree
Murder.Malice.Might
That's the lyrics to a song BTW.
Needless to say, I was Super amused.
Like, to Gohan, Goku is more the Roshi-figure in his life. A trainer and mentor to look up to, but not 'dad,' and with some personality flaws.
Piccolo is to Gohan as Grandpa Gohan was to Goku.
Zap Rowsdower
Ex-cultist vagrant
- Location
- Bright lights, big city
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Fun fact: Piccolo appearing out of nowhere to save Gohan in the movies was such a running gag that the filmmakers themselves made fun of it in the second Brolly movie, where when Gohan gets badly injured and gets saved... its by Krillin dressed as Piccolo.
I cannot remember any in-universe reason why he was dressed like that, AFIK it was purely for the gag.
Can't wait to see what TFS does with that one in, like, two or three years.
I cannot remember any in-universe reason why he was dressed like that, AFIK it was purely for the gag.
Can't wait to see what TFS does with that one in, like, two or three years.
Really? Because in DBZA, I'd say he's more a figure of rage and bitter resentment, and it's likely that his Cell-beating transformation will be fuelled by rage at his deadbeat dad for going and dying on him again.
GilliamYaeger
M'crazy.
Goku's still alive at that point though.
Nidhoggr
Suletta Permetta
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah, more like rage at his deadbeat dad for sending him, his 11 year old son, up against an opponent even Goku couldn't beat. An opponent who plans to wipe out the galaxy.
I dunno, I could see TFS not going for the obvious route and instead have Gohan actually be a bit understanding if still somewhat resentful when Goku drops the whole "I was going all out: the reason you thought I was holding back is because you are that stronger than me, son." thing.
Instead he'll snap when Goku gives Cell the senzu bean.
Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
Was asked to paste this from a chat log.
But Goku doesn't grow in Dragon Ball Z. He becomes more powerful, but he never changes. He never needs to. He never learns any real lessons, because he's already perfect, he just needs to unveil more of what he already is. He's basically an enlightened being from start to finish, a Buddha-like divinity whose thought processes are beyond mortal capacity or comprehension. To us, they sometimes resemble stupidity or carelessness, but is he ever wrong? In the face of Goku's philosophy, Chi-Chi's devotion to the edifice of civilization is revealed as little more than a futile joke. Goku is the only perfect character in the entire cast, the only character who is never truly defeated or forced to change.
The entire cast, villains and all, are merely dancing in the palm of his hand, thinking they're on a journey.
So Goku's the hero, but he's not really the protagonist. Who is?
Krillin has seniority... but he's the Nyarlathotep to Goku's Azathoth, a jester whose existence lies on the very periphery of actual logic. He has little reason to exist or keep up with the rest of the cast, but he somehow does, dragged along by the inertia of his association with Goku, a herald of the true divinity. He never has to change, either. He never goes on a journey. He simply exists, acting as a Greek chorus who interacts only sparingly with the world itself.
So neither of these characters - both survivors of Dragon Ball - are the protagonist.
Piccolo could very easily lay claim to the title. He goes through a complete character arc, from villain to reluctant hero to self-reflective father figure to conflicted loner to Earth's guardian divinity. He discovers his people, his self, and a life beyond his original destiny as clone of a demonic overlord. He changes, and grows, and eventually becomes a god himself. So surely he's the top candidate? Unfortunately, he doesn't have enough screentime. Piccolo remains aloof from the narrative, possibly held back from it by his deep links to the original Dragon Ball, as a clone of that series' final villain. He's a lingering facet of Goku's own ascension myth, not the hero of his own story.
Trunks is a decoy hero at best, who serves other characters' development (Vegeta, Gohan, Frieza, Cell, etc) without actually undergoing much of his own. He's a tool - one used to wipe away the past and introduce the future, fittingly enough.
With those three brushed aside, the two real candidates are Vegeta and Gohan. It's no coincidence that they're both Goku's favoured "projects". In-setting, he literally regards both of them as potential prospects for a good fight. He'd know. He is the True God of the Dragon Ball universe, after all - ironically playing the role of Buddha to the entire galaxy's Sun Wukong.
Gohan is the actual intended protagonist. Toriyama intended for Dragon Ball Z to be his story. It's why the series ultimately revolves around him growing up, it's why so much early foreshadowing focuses on his immense and poorly understood power, and so on. Unfortunately, his development is crippled by the presence of his father, on both a meta and in-universe level. The editors would not allow Toriyama to kill off Goku, so Gohan was in turn never allowed to become more than a mini-Goku. His development and rise to heroism are largely unnecessary, because Goku will always save the day. Unable to step out of the living Goku's shadow, his differences from his father were shunned as flaws rather than unique character traits.
There is little need for Jesus if God Himself is walking the Earth.
Toriyama eventually resolved this paradox toward the end of the Cell Saga, by having Goku explicitly, actively focus on turning Gohan into the protagonist, within the story itself. This decision relaxed the constant tension between "should be" and "is" by admitting to it. It also exposed Goku for the godlike metabeing he is, by stripping away what remained of his previous, humane characterisation in favour of (by mortal standards) a sociopathic devotion to realizing his son's potential.
Despite the forced and often poorly-received nature of Gohan's development, it arguably acts as a microcosm of the series as a whole, for good and ill. Its conclusion during the Buu Saga, with Gohan finally establishing a separate identity - quite literally - for himself, could be read as Toriyama expressing a desire to move on, to different things and different genres, with Gohan's usurpation by the conceit of fusion acting as a metacommentary on the tired, recycled nature of a story that probably should have ended with Frieza, and failing that should certainly have ended with Cell. He is a child of the universe, and bears its sins.
Vegeta, on the other hand, is Gohan's dark mirror on multiple levels. He's presented as Goku's foil, but Goku has no foil. He's perfect, all-encompassing. He has no need for a reflection. Vegeta and Gohan are both are new characters, who develop throughout the series into quite different ones, passing through distinct stages in their lives. Gohan obviously ages, while Vegeta passes from a metaphorical angry teenager to an adult who "kills his father" by fighting Frieza, to a father in his own right, through to a midlife crisis and finally a stable adulthood. Both characters are overshadowed by the impossible peak that is Goku, but rather than developing confidence in his own power and developing into a similar entity - as Gohan was intended to, before outside interference crippled that development - Vegeta has to learn humility and acceptance, becoming at peace with the fact that one man cannot conquer the universe that is Goku.
This is a fairly classic resolution of hubris, or development of enlightenment in a less Western sense.
Rather than the legacy of an existing character, however, Vegeta is a herald of the new, the introduction of a new paradigm and entirely different scope for a series that had previously been a martial arts fantasy (Raditz precedes him, but does not introduce Frieza, does not level cities, and is quickly forgotten). And rather than a designed protagonist whose arc was hobbled by oversensitivity to fan response to its early stages, Vegeta is an emergent protagonist whose arc only existed at all because the fans responded. Toriyama never intended to leave Vegeta alive for long, much less focus on him, but fan response to the character galvanized his editors into forcing him to add Vegeta to the recurring cast (look how much attention was given to the idea of reviving Nappa and Raditz - exactly).
Unable to simply sideline a character who consistently topped popularity polls and was intimately involved in the backstory of the upcoming Frieza Saga, Toriyama made him into a perfect and genuine anti-hero - that is to say, a hero who fails, on both a practical and moral level. Vegeta became a vehicle for the frustrations of every character used as cannon fodder to show off an enemy's strength, because he was not allowed to be the protagonist, but he wanted it so badly, and we saw him work for it, but it was never enough and he never understood why. He was Sisyphus, rolling his boulder uphill arc after arc only to see it crash back down.
Vegeta cares, so deeply, about so many things - starting with "not seeming to care" - and none of them matter at all. His noble bloodline means nothing. His Saiyan pride means nothing. His hatred of Goku means nothing. His grudge against Frieza means nothing. The universe will never validate his obsessions (self-obsession least of all), and he can only find peace by eventually accepting that. He must let go of his attachments and his ego, release his upādāna, accept that his bullshit is bullshit. That is the ultimate climax of his arc.
Vegeta could never have been allowed to win, or the magic would have vanished. Few people realize this. Take a look at Sasuke, who was an attempt to recapture that same lightning. Kishimoto's failing was validating him. Agreeing with him. Yes, the Uchiha were the most important thing ever. Yes, his brooding was meaningful. Yes, his revenge was vital and necessary. Yes, his rivalry was legendary. Kishimoto's mistake was liking Sasuke. Toriyama simply didn't care for Vegeta in the same way - he found his popularity baffling - so he was able to spin a perfect, near-mythological story of a prideful man being kicked in the dick by the cosmos until he finally, finally learned some kind of lesson.
The twin protagonists of Dragon Ball Z are:
Hm, well, the thing is... Dragon Ball's protagonist was undeniably Goku.EarthScorpion said:
But Goku doesn't grow in Dragon Ball Z. He becomes more powerful, but he never changes. He never needs to. He never learns any real lessons, because he's already perfect, he just needs to unveil more of what he already is. He's basically an enlightened being from start to finish, a Buddha-like divinity whose thought processes are beyond mortal capacity or comprehension. To us, they sometimes resemble stupidity or carelessness, but is he ever wrong? In the face of Goku's philosophy, Chi-Chi's devotion to the edifice of civilization is revealed as little more than a futile joke. Goku is the only perfect character in the entire cast, the only character who is never truly defeated or forced to change.
The entire cast, villains and all, are merely dancing in the palm of his hand, thinking they're on a journey.
So Goku's the hero, but he's not really the protagonist. Who is?
Krillin has seniority... but he's the Nyarlathotep to Goku's Azathoth, a jester whose existence lies on the very periphery of actual logic. He has little reason to exist or keep up with the rest of the cast, but he somehow does, dragged along by the inertia of his association with Goku, a herald of the true divinity. He never has to change, either. He never goes on a journey. He simply exists, acting as a Greek chorus who interacts only sparingly with the world itself.
So neither of these characters - both survivors of Dragon Ball - are the protagonist.
Piccolo could very easily lay claim to the title. He goes through a complete character arc, from villain to reluctant hero to self-reflective father figure to conflicted loner to Earth's guardian divinity. He discovers his people, his self, and a life beyond his original destiny as clone of a demonic overlord. He changes, and grows, and eventually becomes a god himself. So surely he's the top candidate? Unfortunately, he doesn't have enough screentime. Piccolo remains aloof from the narrative, possibly held back from it by his deep links to the original Dragon Ball, as a clone of that series' final villain. He's a lingering facet of Goku's own ascension myth, not the hero of his own story.
Trunks is a decoy hero at best, who serves other characters' development (Vegeta, Gohan, Frieza, Cell, etc) without actually undergoing much of his own. He's a tool - one used to wipe away the past and introduce the future, fittingly enough.
With those three brushed aside, the two real candidates are Vegeta and Gohan. It's no coincidence that they're both Goku's favoured "projects". In-setting, he literally regards both of them as potential prospects for a good fight. He'd know. He is the True God of the Dragon Ball universe, after all - ironically playing the role of Buddha to the entire galaxy's Sun Wukong.
Gohan is the actual intended protagonist. Toriyama intended for Dragon Ball Z to be his story. It's why the series ultimately revolves around him growing up, it's why so much early foreshadowing focuses on his immense and poorly understood power, and so on. Unfortunately, his development is crippled by the presence of his father, on both a meta and in-universe level. The editors would not allow Toriyama to kill off Goku, so Gohan was in turn never allowed to become more than a mini-Goku. His development and rise to heroism are largely unnecessary, because Goku will always save the day. Unable to step out of the living Goku's shadow, his differences from his father were shunned as flaws rather than unique character traits.
There is little need for Jesus if God Himself is walking the Earth.
Toriyama eventually resolved this paradox toward the end of the Cell Saga, by having Goku explicitly, actively focus on turning Gohan into the protagonist, within the story itself. This decision relaxed the constant tension between "should be" and "is" by admitting to it. It also exposed Goku for the godlike metabeing he is, by stripping away what remained of his previous, humane characterisation in favour of (by mortal standards) a sociopathic devotion to realizing his son's potential.
Despite the forced and often poorly-received nature of Gohan's development, it arguably acts as a microcosm of the series as a whole, for good and ill. Its conclusion during the Buu Saga, with Gohan finally establishing a separate identity - quite literally - for himself, could be read as Toriyama expressing a desire to move on, to different things and different genres, with Gohan's usurpation by the conceit of fusion acting as a metacommentary on the tired, recycled nature of a story that probably should have ended with Frieza, and failing that should certainly have ended with Cell. He is a child of the universe, and bears its sins.
Vegeta, on the other hand, is Gohan's dark mirror on multiple levels. He's presented as Goku's foil, but Goku has no foil. He's perfect, all-encompassing. He has no need for a reflection. Vegeta and Gohan are both are new characters, who develop throughout the series into quite different ones, passing through distinct stages in their lives. Gohan obviously ages, while Vegeta passes from a metaphorical angry teenager to an adult who "kills his father" by fighting Frieza, to a father in his own right, through to a midlife crisis and finally a stable adulthood. Both characters are overshadowed by the impossible peak that is Goku, but rather than developing confidence in his own power and developing into a similar entity - as Gohan was intended to, before outside interference crippled that development - Vegeta has to learn humility and acceptance, becoming at peace with the fact that one man cannot conquer the universe that is Goku.
This is a fairly classic resolution of hubris, or development of enlightenment in a less Western sense.
Rather than the legacy of an existing character, however, Vegeta is a herald of the new, the introduction of a new paradigm and entirely different scope for a series that had previously been a martial arts fantasy (Raditz precedes him, but does not introduce Frieza, does not level cities, and is quickly forgotten). And rather than a designed protagonist whose arc was hobbled by oversensitivity to fan response to its early stages, Vegeta is an emergent protagonist whose arc only existed at all because the fans responded. Toriyama never intended to leave Vegeta alive for long, much less focus on him, but fan response to the character galvanized his editors into forcing him to add Vegeta to the recurring cast (look how much attention was given to the idea of reviving Nappa and Raditz - exactly).
Unable to simply sideline a character who consistently topped popularity polls and was intimately involved in the backstory of the upcoming Frieza Saga, Toriyama made him into a perfect and genuine anti-hero - that is to say, a hero who fails, on both a practical and moral level. Vegeta became a vehicle for the frustrations of every character used as cannon fodder to show off an enemy's strength, because he was not allowed to be the protagonist, but he wanted it so badly, and we saw him work for it, but it was never enough and he never understood why. He was Sisyphus, rolling his boulder uphill arc after arc only to see it crash back down.
Vegeta cares, so deeply, about so many things - starting with "not seeming to care" - and none of them matter at all. His noble bloodline means nothing. His Saiyan pride means nothing. His hatred of Goku means nothing. His grudge against Frieza means nothing. The universe will never validate his obsessions (self-obsession least of all), and he can only find peace by eventually accepting that. He must let go of his attachments and his ego, release his upādāna, accept that his bullshit is bullshit. That is the ultimate climax of his arc.
Vegeta could never have been allowed to win, or the magic would have vanished. Few people realize this. Take a look at Sasuke, who was an attempt to recapture that same lightning. Kishimoto's failing was validating him. Agreeing with him. Yes, the Uchiha were the most important thing ever. Yes, his brooding was meaningful. Yes, his revenge was vital and necessary. Yes, his rivalry was legendary. Kishimoto's mistake was liking Sasuke. Toriyama simply didn't care for Vegeta in the same way - he found his popularity baffling - so he was able to spin a perfect, near-mythological story of a prideful man being kicked in the dick by the cosmos until he finally, finally learned some kind of lesson.
The twin protagonists of Dragon Ball Z are:
- Gohan, a child who was born and raised to become God, but ultimately decides to be a man
- Vegeta, a man who seeks to defeat God, only to acquire divinity by accepting mortality
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Yes, in Revival of F.
Decades later than it should have happened, but it happened.
The Out Of World
Lichte's Brain
- Location
- -
The real hero of the Dragonball series writ large is undeniably Yamcha, who not only got a stable job of his own but had reached a true, enjoyable profession that isn't simply sponging off the livelihood of others or roughing it in the wilderness, and/or living off prize money. Mind, this is the man who started out as a cutthroat living in a cave in a desert who made a living mugging the occasional passerby. Guy really turned his life around.