Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted)

I think the general idea is more that government sponsored capes shouldn't go on killing sprees, regardless of the targets status... Which is somewhat understandable considering the kind of mess the alternative would give. Still it kinda hinders them in situations like this.
That doesn't make it any less retarded grimderp that both authors should damn well know better to avoid.

And let's not even get into how ridiculous it is for Coil to be able to have his men successfully pose as members of other gangs if they are regularly getting captured by the PRT.
Plausible deniability only works if it's PLAUSIBLE.
 
I think the general idea is more that government sponsored capes shouldn't go on killing sprees, regardless of the targets status... Which is somewhat understandable considering the kind of mess the alternative would give. Still it kinda hinders them in situations like this.

And that is why Earth Bet is a crapsack world. When one side has to limit their response to non-lethal means while the other is doing their best to kill them, do not expect the first side to be very successful.
Think a war where one side can only use rubber bullets while the other can use guns, artillery, tanks, air strikes and every other weapon at their disposal. Oh, they also outnumber the first side 3 to 1.

And let's not even get into how ridiculous it is for Coil to be able to have his men successfully pose as members of other gangs if they are regularly getting captured by the PRT.
Plausible deniability only works if it's PLAUSIBLE.

I am more surprised that PRT is even required to deal with Coil. His mercs are normal humans, so why not send police and SWAT to deal with them? I bet they would do as good if not better that the PRT, not being required to take hostiles alive AT ALL COST would definitely aid the police/SWAT.
 
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keep in mind most villains also stick to nonlethal. they have a bit more wiggle room, but generally speaking if a villain starts racking up a civilian or hero kill count best case scenario is that a bunch of out of town heroes show up to push there shit in, and the worst case scenario is a kill order.

Coil is ignoring that, and in doing so he is playing with fire. It gives him one hell of an edge, but at the same time it risks provoking a response he can't survive. He's only doing it because he has enough insider info on the PRT that he should have enough time to run if they find his base.
 
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It'd work fine if he's paying them to pretend having been hired by the E88/ABB if they've been caught. Well, okay, not quite fine, but well enough that the authorities need to spend some time and effort putting a case together for PR to work with.

It won't last, but if he moves fast enough it works well enough.
 
That doesn't make it any less retarded grimderp that both authors should damn well know better to avoid.

If we avoided it, there'd be no basis for leverage on the part of the PRT, which is entirely justified in this case. Leaving aside the issue of legality, the key point we held as important was public perception. Lisa is technically still categorized as a villain - this meeting is the first time she's actually come out and said that she's part of Concordia to anyone in position to report it back to the PRT. That's somewhat of a grey area given Concordia's current status, but it's a direct move away from villain-hood. Except, on occasion, merc are being killed by Concordia when they hit Coil. IIRC, they're pretty much only hitting Coil - you'll see some of this in 3.11.

The perception of heroes killing villains is one that has very deliberately been spun to the point that it is always seen as a terrible thing. Parahumans killing 'normals' is even worse, as even if they normie is an active threat to the para, it's seen as a no contest. The PRT plays these situations down as accidents or just flat sweeps them under the rug whenever it comes up - they're actually doing that for Concordia right now. But if it breaks, especially given Lisa's history, things would be...bad.

I am more surprised that PRT is even required to deal with Coil. His mercs are normal humans, so why not send police and SWAT to deal with them? I bet they would do as good if not better that the PRT, not being required to take hostiles alive AT ALL COST would definitely aid the police/SWAT.

@landcollector hit this on the head. I did in fact raise a similar point to your own in writing, but what it came down was that Coil is using his save-scumming as much as he can to ensure maximum effect and to avoid effective responses from groups that can actually kill his mercs. The equipment disparity is the main reason that PRT capes are being drafted in. A lot of it, as discussed in the chapter itself, is PR stuff that they have to fight because of the pressure Coil is putting on them through those channels. So even if they might not be needed, they're being forced to get involved, and that's taking away from their ability to counter the gangs.

The fact that Coil is playing hard and fast with the rules - please note that at this point it's basically Lisa's word that Coil went after Taylor in her civie ID - is something that is going to catch up to him, but is taking a while.
 
Lumberg - Hello Thomas.
Coil = Bill, hi...
Lumberg - So, I hear you had a problem with your TPS reports...
Coil - Yeah, sorry. I forgot...
Lumberg - Did you get the memo? About the new cover sheets?
Coil - Yeah, I uhh forgot. But i've got it now and it wont happen again.
Lumberg - Right. If you could just remember to do that from now on, it would be great. OK? Thanks a bunch Thomas!

Coil - I hate that guy.

Bob - Thomas, whats happening...By the way, did you get the memo?

- elsewhere -

Taylor - REVVENGE!
 
I pulled out my cellphone and rushed back to the teacher's lounge. I wouldn't be able to make the phone call here.
MM getting involved. Interesting.
Now all I had to do was to buy time. I grabbed my jacket and a random scarf from the wardrobe. With a bit of luck, it would protect my identity.
Falsifying a 911 call. Hannah's really mptivated here.
"Protectorate! Stand down, now!" I shouted with all the force and authority I could put into it, hoping to be heard over the noise of the fighting.
The fighting paused. Two dozen teenage gang members now had a common target. They were all focused on me. Good.
"Drop your weapons. You're all under arrest. Drop them! Now!" I brandished my weapon at them, with my power it couldn't go off accidentally. Especially since it was a long, hooked sword instead of the heavy revolver I had expected. How had that happened? Manifesting my weapon was natural to me, I didn't get it wrong like that. And I couldn't even create melee weapons all that well.
Emotional imbalance=power screwups?

"No. I'm sorry Hannah, but you know the regulations just as well as I do. You had to fight without your costume, we're supposed to protect your identity. Which means we can't assign you there without a pressing need, and we have enough other options that we don't have one."

Which meant I just had to create one.
She's bending the rules to get involved. Are we going to see that soldier mentality from post-Levi canon come in?
And we knew that it wasn't good fortune, not after so long and with the opposition we faced. They had taken hostages, planted bombs, fought openly in the streets.
All the standard FPS stuff.
Right. Stupid of me to hope for a simple solution. Colin didn't look surprised. "So we either get lucky and take out Coil, or we somehow get more manpower. Maybe I could get Dragon to ask for help from the Guild?"

Emily shook her head. "You know that the other directors wouldn't like that. It'd look too bad, this isn't an S-class threat after all. But do it anyway, I don't care how bad it makes me look. I won't let those parahuman thugs tear this city apart."
Piggot willing to sacrifice her career in order to do good? She has grasped the genre she's in, and I do not want to be her enemies.
"So you are just throwing them to the wolves?" Colin recovered from his uncharacteristic outburst. "They have been remarkably effective against Coils forces so far.
Not surprising.
Tattletale had delayed the meeting. Something about a raid on Coil's facilities.
another missed possessive.
If laser rifles were such a game breaker then heroes and PRT would get slaughtered. As they not only manage to win, but actually capture the mercs alive, then SWAT, which does not have to hold back, would just slaughter them.
That makes no sense. SWAT isn't the military, even they don't go in 'guns blazing/kill everyone'. The Police, which SWAT are a part of, are under similar restrictions to the Protectorate, and get in big trouble when they kill someone unnecessarily. And the Parahuman Response Teams have proven to be solidly better than police at these sorts of things despite having only nonlethal gear. Tinker-tech foam and such is just absurdly good and multi-functional.
 
That makes no sense. SWAT isn't the military, even they don't go in 'guns blazing/kill everyone'. The Police, which SWAT are a part of, are under similar restrictions to the Protectorate, and get in big trouble when they kill someone unnecessarily. And the Parahuman Response Teams have proven to be solidly better than police at these sorts of things despite having only nonlethal gear. Tinker-tech foam and such is just absurdly good and multi-functional.
Proved themselves where? When was the last time where you saw PRT alone winning something?
 
another missed possessive.
Thank you :) Quite appreciated.

Emotional imbalance=power screwups?
Only partially.
It's because she trained with Hu Dai and got the benefit from lots of training-charms. Similar to Aisha, she's basically at Martial Arts 5 now (Aisha is only at four or so). She's not using any charms here though - and is not natively capable of doing so either. She's just that good.

Now, why did she manifest a sword?
Partially because she was indeed a bit emotionally imbalanced, and was (partially) acting out of loyalty to Hu Dai. So thinking of her=falling back on her training with her. If she had been fully focused, she'd have manifested the gun she wanted.
But also - well, you may recall that Miss Militia is not that good at creating melee weapons. Essentially, that's changing due to her training with and exposure to Hu Dai (hint: the Hook Sword is actually a Crane Style form weapon).

She's bending the rules to get involved. Are we going to see that soldier mentality from post-Levi canon come in?
I'll certainly try, yes.



Regarding the whole Mercenaries vs. SWAT thing and the like:

I very much doubt that Earth Bet-USA has SWATs to the same degree as RL-USA. At least not in cities with parahumans and a strong PRT-presence.
The main reason would obviously be that there would be much less need - heroes can take over the job of taking on the dangerous criminals, and often can do so better. Then you have to figure in funding - all the funds for the PRT and Protectorate have to come from somewhere, and SWATs are a logical place for that.

So there's probably less SWATs in Brockton Bay. Which doesn't mean there are none, but not enough to counter Coil. Especially since his mercenaries are just as well trained, have better gear and the benefit of never making a grave tactical mistake (because if they did, that timeline never happened).


Also, consider what all of this looks like from the POV of the public:
For decades now, there has been gang violence in some parts of the city. The bad parts which you avoid. Your parts of the city have been safe except for the rare incident. You haven't really been paying attention to how the conflict changes in the poor parts of the city.
Then suddenly, there's a severe attack in your neighborhood. Your coworkers cousin and a dozen other people were taken hostage for three hours by gang members. On the same day, a bomb blows up a coffee shop that was fortunately closed on that day. The police barely rescues the hostages, but the gangers escape.
Then on the next day, that happens again. And on the day after that, three attacks. And you know that tomorrow, it could happen to you. What do you do?
Well, you demand that the police do everything they can to protect you of course. Use all available resources and so on.

Now yes, a reasonable person would say that you'd have to fight those criminals at their source (the poor parts of the city). But come one, that doesn't even happen in real life!
Here, with Coil paying strawmen to argue that the good neighborhoods being protected is important, and that the criminals are being bled dry by their attack? Yeah, I don't see that happening at all unless the police (PRT/Protectorate) has the resources to spare to stop all attacks right away and fight the gangs and Coil.
 
If laser rifles were such a game breaker then heroes and PRT would get slaughtered. As they not only manage to win, but actually capture the mercs alive, then SWAT, which does not have to hold back, would just slaughter them.
Laser rifles aren't a game changer. Laser rifles, heavy body armor, good military training and Thinker support are a major game changer.
 
That doesn't make it any less retarded grimderp that both authors should damn well know better to avoid.

And let's not even get into how ridiculous it is for Coil to be able to have his men successfully pose as members of other gangs if they are regularly getting captured by the PRT.
Plausible deniability only works if it's PLAUSIBLE.
The PRT and Protectorate knows it's Coils mercs, it's just that they are dressed up s ABB and E88 members, so what the public sees is ABB and E88 members fighting and being arrested, and if they admitted they weren't E88 and ABB members to the public, then the public would just demand they go even more after Coil instead of the gangs, and what they want to do is take the gangs down, so admitting they are Coils men would be counterproductive.
 
Containment foam is actually an absolute gamebreaker for law enforcement anyway. A solid hit from the stuff is an instant takedown, it's essentially impossible to kill with, you can use it to create cover or seal a door. Shit's incredibly tactically useful. If it existed in grenade format IRL the military would be issuing every single trooper with a grenade or three of it, not for non-lethal takedowns only, but because that shit's basically battlefield control in a can.

Also, it works on plenty of capes bullets don't but the converse is almost never true. The ONLY cape I can think where guns are a better option than CF for takedowns is Skitter, because CF doesn't keep from sensing through or attacking with her swarm. Bullets fail on almost all brutes, but CF will neutralize the ones that aren't fliers completely and reduce the fliers to a blind flying foam ball.
 
The PRT and Protectorate knows it's Coils mercs, it's just that they are dressed up s ABB and E88 members, so what the public sees is ABB and E88 members fighting and being arrested, and if they admitted they weren't E88 and ABB members to the public, then the public would just demand they go even more after Coil instead of the gangs, and what they want to do is take the gangs down, so admitting they are Coils men would be counterproductive.
To expand on the point of revealing they're Coil Mercs being counterproductive, people might not even believe the PRT/Protectorate. It's a documented behavior that people latch on to the initial explanation to a situation, and become even more convinced of its veracity when you try and explain the initial report's inaccuracy. RL example: The Anti-Vaccination movement. The initial study's been debunked to hell and back, but people keep on citing it a truth. In Brockton Bay, the reason everything's so shitty is because of these two gangs. The response might be, 'A third party I've never heard of before is the reason my supposedly safe neighborhood got shot up? Nice try, we know a scapegoat when we see it. Do your jobs!'
 
To expand on the point of revealing they're Coil Mercs being counterproductive, people might not even believe the PRT/Protectorate. It's a documented behavior that people latch on to the initial explanation to a situation, and become even more convinced of its veracity when you try and explain the initial report's inaccuracy. RL example: The Anti-Vaccination movement. The initial study's been debunked to hell and back, but people keep on citing it a truth. In Brockton Bay, the reason everything's so shitty is because of these two gangs. The response might be, 'A third party I've never heard of before is the reason my supposedly safe neighborhood got shot up? Nice try, we know a scapegoat when we see it. Do your jobs!'
Especially when from their view is clearly ABB and E88, after all the attackers wore their colors and all, so Coil has them stuck at it's clearly the gangs attacking us not that nobody Coil, and we are clearly more important than all those scum over in the bad part of town, so as long as the gangs are attacking us here, don't dare not save a single of us important folk, even if it means you aren't saving 100s of poor sobs over in the bad parts of town, it's not like those bums really matter as much as we do.
 
Also, it works on plenty of capes bullets don't but the converse is almost never true. The ONLY cape I can think where guns are a better option than CF for takedowns is Skitter, because CF doesn't keep from sensing through or attacking with her swarm. Bullets fail on almost all brutes, but CF will neutralize the ones that aren't fliers completely and reduce the fliers to a blind flying foam ball.
You serious? List of capes a bullet works better than containment foam to stop:
Rune
Lung
Oni Lee
Purity
Vista(maybe depends on how containment foam reacts to her power)
Legend
Fog(Neither will effect him when he's fog, but if you catch him in his normal state a bullet will stop him, containment foam won't)
Shadow Stalker
etc...
Granted some of them will be hampered by containment foam but it's still less effective than shooting them if your only consideration is stopping them.

Thinking about it there might be less capes in canon that containment foam will stop than ones a bullet won't stop.
 
MM getting involved. Interesting.

Falsifying a 911 call. Hannah's really mptivated here.

Emotional imbalance=power screwups?


She's bending the rules to get involved. Are we going to see that soldier mentality from post-Levi canon come in?

All the standard FPS stuff.

Piggot willing to sacrifice her career in order to do good? She has grasped the genre she's in, and I do not want to be her enemies.

Not surprising.

another missed possessive.

That makes no sense. SWAT isn't the military, even they don't go in 'guns blazing/kill everyone'. The Police, which SWAT are a part of, are under similar restrictions to the Protectorate, and get in big trouble when they kill someone unnecessarily. And the Parahuman Response Teams have proven to be solidly better than police at these sorts of things despite having only nonlethal gear. Tinker-tech foam and such is just absurdly good and multi-functional.
SWAT is allowed to use Lethal force in responce to it being used against them or civilians. They only get in trouble when it is applied to people that aren't that dangerous, just like normal cops.
 
Now yes, a reasonable person would say that you'd have to fight those criminals at their source (the poor parts of the city). But come one, that doesn't even happen in real life!
That happens to be the #1 public justification for America's foreign policy, so yes it does. :p

SWAT is allowed to use Lethal force in responce to it being used against them or civilians. They only get in trouble when it is applied to people that aren't that dangerous, just like normal cops.
All cops are allowed to use lethal force in response to any vaguely reasonable threat to their lives.
 
Thinking about it there might be less capes in canon that containment foam will stop than ones a bullet won't stop.

the villain population is likely at least somewhat self selecting for powers that are good at dealing with containment foam.

That happens to be the #1 public justification for America's foreign policy, so yes it does. :p

No no no, thats us going out and fighting terrorists! totally different.
 
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