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So you guys, I'd like to hear some of your speculation on the Four Horsemen. What do you think of them as villains? What do you think their gameplan is?
Distortions (Symphogear) (Spoilers for Those Who Haven't Seen XV!)
- Thread starter obssesednuker
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Seems like part of their obsession with making the Adaptors' lives hell. In this case, hurting Chris by killing/kidnapping people she's close to.
They're complete psychos who are using elimination of Relics as an excuse to go wild, kill, and blow stuff up to their hearts' content. If they really thought they were in the right, they wouldn't be assassinating politicians who voice support of SONG. Doing that just shows that their case is so weak it can't stand up to any honest opposition. Likewise, blowing up an office building and civilians in and around it shows a complete lack of care for the people they are supposedly protecting from Relics, and the actions Tsubasa and Maria took in confronting that bomb nut and saving the hostage should up their cred with the public while painting the Four Horsemen as loony terrorists who're willing to kill innocent people for shits & giggles.
As to their gameplan? I don't think they have one beyond "Make the Symphogear Adaptors suffer"
EDIT: On further reflection, I suspect the Four Horsemen(or rather, their shadowy boss)'s ultimate goal may be world domination, but they know if they tried right now, the Symphogear Adaptors would kick their asses, so they need to get rid of SONG first, and any other Relics they don't control because Relics still surpass bleeding edge modern tech.
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FelOnyx
Love and Peace!
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I think they're telling the truth about being opposed to relics, but only technically. Their clones and other super technology aren't the result of them using a relic directly, but I think they have learned secrets about how to build equivalent technology themselves from a relic before they destroyed it. The relics are sufficiently advanced technology after all, so while they may be opposed to the influence of the Custodians they could justify to themselves that humanity would have eventually learned to create them anyway.
Paleb05
A Believer of Optimism in the World
- Location
- Pennsylvania
I'm at a loss of what their game plan is, other than "Make the Wielder's life hell". At this point I am just waiting for the clue/hint/reveal of who is behind this group what is their motivation is, because the actions of the Four Horsemen seem to be more about causing mayhem than what the goal they said they have (free the world from the relics/Custodians) actually is.
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I have to say, you guys are awfully insightful.
Yes. Officially, they are able to justify that as part of their "psychological warfare." They see the Symphogear adaptors as not having a soldiers' mindset and thus vulnerable to having their moments of respite taken away from them.
You are partly correct on the "complete psychos" part. When it comes to White Noise, all of them either have a personal grudge against SONG, are sociopaths, or are such fanatics that they don't care at all for the collateral damage. And the rest of White Unit is made up of Staples, who are basically fleshy robots that follow whatever orders their leaders give them. The key takeaway is that none of the White Unit care how they personally look to the public. They're soldiers, not politicians.
Another thing to note is that the official Four Horsemen ideology isn't about "protecting people" but about "destroying the Custodians and everything they've built." They believe if they do that, they'll have freed mankind as a whole from what they see as pernicious extraterrestrial influence. They don't actually care about the quality of life actual humans will have once mankind is "liberated."
Yes, their High Technology can match some of the things relics can do, though I personally think it's nowhere near as elegant.
Their goal is to kill the wielders and free mankind from the Custodians' influence. Everything they do is in service of this. The Leaders of the Four Horsemen have decided that the mayhem is necessary is essential to their plan.
Ask yourself: if IRL Japan and America were attacked repeatedly by a group like the Four Horsemen, what do you think would be their reaction? Especially if a trigger-happy (probably Republican) President was in charge.
Yes. Officially, they are able to justify that as part of their "psychological warfare." They see the Symphogear adaptors as not having a soldiers' mindset and thus vulnerable to having their moments of respite taken away from them.
You are partly correct on the "complete psychos" part. When it comes to White Noise, all of them either have a personal grudge against SONG, are sociopaths, or are such fanatics that they don't care at all for the collateral damage. And the rest of White Unit is made up of Staples, who are basically fleshy robots that follow whatever orders their leaders give them. The key takeaway is that none of the White Unit care how they personally look to the public. They're soldiers, not politicians.
Another thing to note is that the official Four Horsemen ideology isn't about "protecting people" but about "destroying the Custodians and everything they've built." They believe if they do that, they'll have freed mankind as a whole from what they see as pernicious extraterrestrial influence. They don't actually care about the quality of life actual humans will have once mankind is "liberated."
Yes, their High Technology can match some of the things relics can do, though I personally think it's nowhere near as elegant.
Their goal is to kill the wielders and free mankind from the Custodians' influence. Everything they do is in service of this. The Leaders of the Four Horsemen have decided that the mayhem is necessary is essential to their plan.
Ask yourself: if IRL Japan and America were attacked repeatedly by a group like the Four Horsemen, what do you think would be their reaction? Especially if a trigger-happy (probably Republican) President was in charge.
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Well, that's a rather tricky goal to achieve, and a pyrric one, at that, considering that the Custodians built US. IIRC, the Custondians seeded life on Earth long, long ago. Humanity evolved under their guiding hand until Shem-Ha's rebellion and the activation of the Curse of Balal forced them to leave. The Four Horsemen cannot fulfill their mission statement without killing every man, woman, ad child on the face of the Earth, including themselves.
And what happens if the Custodians come back now that Shem-Ha is kaput? Do they really think human technology can fight a race so advanced that they created all the Relics we've seen in the show and then some? A power generator small enough to be wielded as a sword yet powerful to supply enough energy to blow up the Moon. A book that can control machinery. A staff that could summon and control the Noise. A flying island. The Symphogears themselves are but pale shadows of the original Relics they were created from. And then there's the whole divine power thing which means conventional weapons are completely useless! Useless! USELESS! USELESS!!!
If the Custodians should return with the intent to control the Destiny of humanity once again, our only hope to fight back would be the Symphogears and the Seven Songs of their wielders.
We've already seen it in canon: Nuke 'em.
- Location
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Professor Makoto would disagree with you on that.
Ah, but that's just a crutch. To the Four Horsemen, using the relics to defeat the Custodians is no different to being their slaves. They have faith in mankind to come back from anything, especially their leader.
Yup. And guess how that's going to go down with countries that aren't America or Japan.
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And they are completely wrong. They can't beat the Custodians without Symphogear, and are refusing to admit it because they're maniacs. Even if they somehow find a way to even hit someone with the divine power that isn't Gungnir, I guarantee it'll do barely more than nothing. Unfortunately, they're even less sane then ISIS. And Makoto is, unfortunately, also wrong. Maybe it's different in this AU, but humanity was created by the Custodians. The very fact Shem-Ha was able to do what she did is proof of this irreconcilable truth. So, well, that's that.
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Grue
滅亡迅雷
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The specifics are probably arguable, especially in crossovers, but even if the Custodians didn't literally create humanity Shem-Ha means they were very heavily involved.
(In general the Horsemen are missing the fundamental problem that's also why Chaldea is needed in FGO; humanity may one day reach the stars without the crutch of heretical tech/Heroic Spirits, but they're not quite yet strong enough to walk on their own without getting kicked while they're down by your choice of the latest brand of assholes.
And really, the only reason using magitech isn't an option in that future for the Horsemen is, as mentioned, their idealology; back before AXZ revealed there was barely any left, I'd mused on a far future version of Symphogear featuring MP Gungnirs sourcing originally from Hibiki's relic cancer.)
obssesednuker
Commander of 10 Million Men
- Location
- In the Kremlin, activating Perimtr.
All I'll say at the moment, as the creator of the story, is that the keywords indicate that the experimental 100 megaton bomb fired off in AXZ was regarded as having some kinda chance at killing the Divine Weapon. Presumably the thinking was that if you just vaporize the whole creature in one go, it can't "temporal reset" itself since it's already been utterly destroyed by the time it can even recognize the damage has been done. Of course, the missile is (A) fired off after the Divine Weapon had already been dealt with by the power of yuri love and (B) is intercepted by serious Alchemical bullshit that seems to rival the Divine Power by default and was reinforced beyond it by the Illuminatis trios self-sacrifice (and notably, even then it barely worked against the nuke). Whether it would have actually worked is fundamentally never established but it at least opens up the possibility of some kinda futuristic high tech weapons system that does.
Particularly since the definition of "high technology" the Four Horsemen are working with gets a fair bit space opera-ey, to say the least. They never cross over into outright magitech (Watsonianely speaking), but we are going to be seeing some seriously soft-sci-fi later on. But since there aren't any Custodians around (with the possible exception of The Pale Man), the Horsemen's anti-custodian efforts are largely going to be background until we hit the very endgame.
For reference, the fundamental difference I'm working with between "heretical" (magical) and "high" technology is that the former is fundamentally based on the relics and those are physically impossible to replicate without humanity basically transforming itself into creatures on the level of the Custodians (and yes, trans-humanism is something the Horsemen have opinions on). Reverse engineering for production is simply impossible. High technology, on the other hand, is ultimately capable of being built by humans as they are now, even if one has to attach the qualifier "eventually" onto that.
Finally: yes, the Horsemen's reasoning is warped on some level. And in more ways then one.
Particularly since the definition of "high technology" the Four Horsemen are working with gets a fair bit space opera-ey, to say the least. They never cross over into outright magitech (Watsonianely speaking), but we are going to be seeing some seriously soft-sci-fi later on. But since there aren't any Custodians around (with the possible exception of The Pale Man), the Horsemen's anti-custodian efforts are largely going to be background until we hit the very endgame.
For reference, the fundamental difference I'm working with between "heretical" (magical) and "high" technology is that the former is fundamentally based on the relics and those are physically impossible to replicate without humanity basically transforming itself into creatures on the level of the Custodians (and yes, trans-humanism is something the Horsemen have opinions on). Reverse engineering for production is simply impossible. High technology, on the other hand, is ultimately capable of being built by humans as they are now, even if one has to attach the qualifier "eventually" onto that.
Finally: yes, the Horsemen's reasoning is warped on some level. And in more ways then one.
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- College Station, Texas
Why yes, the main villains are both wrong and a little crazy. That's kind of the reason why they are the bad guys of this story (besides their utter ruthlessness). They aren't supposed to be sympathetic in the story.
Having seen the story notes, I will let you know that the Four Horsemen already know about the problem you point out, and they have a sci-fi-like solution in the wings that their R&D works on whenever it's not working on anti-Symphogear tech. They are confident they can come up with Anti-Custodian superweapon. Remember, they already have advanced cloning technology, nanotechnology, and the Apegear, a device capable of stealing phonic gain from Symphogears.
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- in between
Yeah, @obssesednuker mentioned it whilst we were working on the Omake. He also mentioned that every single one of the things they've tried was either impractical to the point of uselessness, or too suicidal even for them. Which says a lot- wait did you just say Makoto is Horsemen? Cuz it looks like you just said Makoto was Horsemen.
Edit: The point about "hit it so hard it's dead before it can heal" is a good one, but I'm pretty sure its said in XV that it's extradimensional hacks and not just limited time powers. Making it unlikely "just got it really hard" will work. Otherwise, Finè would've been planning to use Kadingir, not the adapters.
Edit: The point about "hit it so hard it's dead before it can heal" is a good one, but I'm pretty sure its said in XV that it's extradimensional hacks and not just limited time powers. Making it unlikely "just got it really hard" will work. Otherwise, Finè would've been planning to use Kadingir, not the adapters.
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Grue
滅亡迅雷
- Location
- -
Your point is minorly undermined by the fact that "Just punch it in the face" is a standard plan for SONG by XV.
Actually, the implication off the number of what I'm calling Sakurai Grade Symphogears, made by her, seems to imply that the Symphogears are her backup plan in case just blowing up the moon is too infeasible.
obssesednuker
Commander of 10 Million Men
- Location
- In the Kremlin, activating Perimtr.
"Tried" is a bit strong of a word. Project Wormwood is more like a series of concepts in various stages of completion. It really says something about both the Custodians and the Horsemen that the current most favored of Wormwood's concepts in terms of both practicality and not-being-suicidal can be summed up as "shove an artificially generated black hole onto it".
Who said that?
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Nerrevarrine
Formerly of House Indoril
- Location
- Stranded in Akavir
I'm just gonna say, you completely suceeded on conveying that. The horsemen have like 2 points to "justify" their actions: "Custodians & heretical tech are bad" and "such a small group shouldn't have that much power." Sure, there's more, but that stuff's mostly the personal hangups of each individual horseman. None of that explains why they feel the need to systematically isolate and torture a group of teenage girls, murder a signifigant number of people who were only peripherally involved (or in some cases not involved at all), and throw childish tantrums and say mean things when the adaptors refuse to lay down and die.
Honestly? The horsemen strike me as angry children with too much power. Their petty justifications are just excuses so they can hurt people without feeling "bad." Since they're the "good guys," they can do whatever they want and it's automatically "good," and what they want to do is hurt the adaptors, along with anyone who sympathises with them. They're the "bad guys" after all, as the Horsemen see it. OH, another point, the horsemen explicitly refer to Hibiki's "all loving hero"-ness as a weakness they plan to exploit (minor note, the exact wording for it is hilarious: anyone who thinks losing an arm will even slow the punchlesbian down at this point clearly hasn't watched the show/jk) and "disgusting," as if their childish fixation on revenge and violence is somehow the "proper" way of thinking and "not wanting to spread pain and suffering" is somehow an anathema.
Plus, the "Four Horsemen" of the apocolypse? They should be careful not to cut themselves on that edge. It's also kinda arrogant to compare yourselves to supernatural powers, especially when you're pissed off about "heretical technology." Finally, identifying yourselves as being related to the apocolypse (particularly concepts such as war, death, famine, and pestilence) sends entirely the wrong message.
Not sure about anyone else, but I associate pretty much all of these behaviors with childishness and immaturity. It's like a tantrum with a body count.
plus,
The way this is described, it's like the horsemen are just playing lip service to their stated goals. Oh sure, they wanna be the heroes that "save humanity from the evil custodians," but that's secondary to causing the adaptors pain. If they actually cared about "saving the world," they would've kept their R&D on the "custodian destroying superweapon" until they had something that (they thought) would work (or very close to it), and tried to remove the symphogears only after they could be certain a new custodian wouldn't immediately say "it's free real estate" seconds after the symphogears were removed. The adaptors would be a "necessary evil" until they finished. Instead, they went "murder and torture first, figure out how to stop armageddon when we get done with that."
Right, I'm done with my analysis of the villains now, I'm gonna talk about pacing. It's a little much, not gonna lie. I like the scenes with "down time" so to speak, but pretty much all of them contain this feeling of "sword-of-damocles-is-about-to-fall." I really, really hope the adaptors pull off a victory soon because it feels like the closest they've gotten is slightly inconveniencing the mad bomber, and otherwise all the Horsemen's plans have gone off without a hitch. The "interrupting a plan and giving themselves an opening to do more" is good though. It's a place to start being proactive about the Horsemen.
obssesednuker
Commander of 10 Million Men
- Location
- In the Kremlin, activating Perimtr.
I'll say this: your not wrong. At all. And in fact, I'm going to go ahead and spoil this much: when the adaptors find out the real reason behind the Horsemen, the reason that not even the Horsemen themselves are really aware of, it's actually even more petty then what your saying and they get called out on it.
Well, they did more then slightly inconvenience the "mad bomber". The point of the bank bombing was to cripple SONG financially. The civilian casualties, save for Caprice's sadism, were collateral as far as the rest of the Horsemen is concerned. By catching her in the act, SONG actually managed to defeat the entire point of the plan, since the Japanese government agreed to reimburse the losses. Which does indeed give them an opening to do more.
Hopefully chapter 11-12 will help satisfy that need for proactiveness...
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- in between
Well, I mentioned that both Makoto and the Horsemen are wrong, but @The Name of Love only said that the villains, ie the Horsemen, are wrong. Which implies that Makoto is a Horseman.
Edit: Actually, I'm surprised no one has thought to bring Enki up yet. You'd think that that utter badass of a... well, I'm pretty sure he's a man, would basically be the ultimate counterpoint to the Horsemen. I mean, it's right there- a Custodian literally died to save humanity from another Custodian. It seems like an obvious choice for reasons to tell them to shut up.
Edit: Actually, I'm surprised no one has thought to bring Enki up yet. You'd think that that utter badass of a... well, I'm pretty sure he's a man, would basically be the ultimate counterpoint to the Horsemen. I mean, it's right there- a Custodian literally died to save humanity from another Custodian. It seems like an obvious choice for reasons to tell them to shut up.
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- Around here
I have repeatedly told Nuker that the final boss should be a giant seven-headed dragon that flies in the face of every anti-heretical-tech sentiment the 4H have ever expressed, for exactly this reason.
obssesednuker
Commander of 10 Million Men
- Location
- In the Kremlin, activating Perimtr.
I'm pretty sure you told me that you wanted that to happen because you think it's awesome. Which, yeah, it is...
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Either or, really. It would be awesome, and thematically appropriate, and a huge slap in the face to everything they've tried to achieve by saying "Hey, our end-boss is the very thing we tried to eradicate".
obssesednuker
Commander of 10 Million Men
- Location
- In the Kremlin, activating Perimtr.
I'll continue this convo in the PM thread.
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- in between
...The one I'm invited to for Omake stuff, or the one I'm not?
obssesednuker
Commander of 10 Million Men
- Location
- In the Kremlin, activating Perimtr.
...The one I'm invited to for Omake stuff, or the one I'm not?
The one your not, I'm afraid.
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- in between
Ah well. I'll wait till... whichever chapter you out the second press conference in, as I think that's where the next Omake leaves off.
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- College Station, Texas
I mean you aren't wrong. And there are probably members of the Four Horsemen that would agree with you. It's just that we've mainly seen the White Noise, the most fanatically and insane members of the Four Horsemen. All of them are deranged people chosen for their loyalty and for their badassry, not for their reasoning skills. The entirety of the "make them suffer" is entirely due to a combination of personal hangups and sociopathy that's post-hoc justified as "psychological warfare."
On the anti-Custodian weapon...
That. Their planned countermeasure to the Custodians is "if one shows up, throw a black hole at it."
Most Symphogear seasons have the good guys not getting victories until later on. Why would our Symphogear story be different?
Can you DM me on this?
I never meant to say that. All I said was that Makoto's theory on the Custodians is shared by the Four Horsemen.