Dial up Heroine (Worm/Ben 10)

Glad to see Emma being silly, it's nice.

That said now we have our core 3 up and running and we haven't hit this story's Alien Force Phase yet.

That said, I kind like it, if you look at the composition (and how Emma is probably definitely going to get magic maybe) their style is a lot less direct than the og crew. It fits.
 
I wouldn't say it's a matter of 'do we have enough data', it's really which data is applicable: Worm Canon, or Saturday Morning Cartoon Canon.

If we're talking Worm canon, then Sophia is fundamentally never going to change. She's a prime example of children Triggering young are broken and remolded mentally by their Shards, everything is through the lens of predator and prey. It's not impossible to have a positive opinion of Taylor, people often forget that until things broke down and her role was made public Sophia actually gave Piggot a large measure of grudging respect for her pugnacious attitude and the willingness to let Sophia off the leash so she could 'do her thing' and beat up/kill acceptable targets. She's only discouraged by negative reinforcement, and is very easily jealous of others having things she sees as desirable that are missing from her life. Her attitude shows the very mixed sincerity of the statement, but she did once tell Emma she'd let Taylor be friends if she laughed at all the stuff they did to her and took the pranks with a stiff upper lip.

Sophia greatly enjoys beating down on criminals and who can't stop her, as she sees it as keeping society preserved when it's all flying apart, while those who have power over her she utterly loathes for reminding her of limitations. Under this rule, she's not going to stop going after Taylor in some form or another and will only respect her if she plays the role Sophia gave her: Punching bag.

But that is, as I said, only one set of data. We are also talking about Ben 10. A kids show with more than a couple villains turning out to be friends or just quirky people with more power than a sense of boundaries and social norms. Under this mindset, someone who has both a strong passion for fighting crime and values darwinism can come around to not only the wielder of the Omnitrix as having immense power, but one also derived from Azmuth's intent. That diplomacy and understanding can hold its own unique power which force and fear will never possess. But, like all superhero serials, such a transition takes time, falling down to learn liimitation, and more than a few sets of fisticuffs.
Not too sure about the worm version. Shards influence their hosts, stronger in cases like Sophia. But they don't usually lock them into a singly type of emotional and thought pattern, without any chance at all of change. It might be more difficult than in an equivalent 'normal' person, but still possible.
One also ought to remember that there are a bunch of shitty people in worm canon that got better over the course of the story. They might never become fonts of empathy and understanding, but that's not the question anyway.


Taking a moment to don my teacher hat, I wonder if there is a fundamentally different way of looking at it than the perception that Sophia is inherently mean-spirited, or in the terms of nature vs nurture.

In classrooms I very often end up with situations where I have bad students, people who act up and just make it impossible for anything to get done. Working at the same school as I have been in my role as a substitute, I have seen these same students in multiple different settings. And one thing that I've seen more than once is that some students are only problems in relation to other students.

For an example, Student A and I have had some very interesting conversations, he's a bit of an absurdist philosophically, and challenges any position for value, in a search for value. Alone, he isn't much of a problem. He can actually (when there is no work to do) be a rather interesting person to talk to.

Student B is a pain in the neck. He is a guy who wants to be the class clown, everything has to be a joke, and he'll make a quippy remark about anything. But, if he is by himself, he'll limit himself to a snide remark or two, and then just slide into quietly doing the work and not causing problems.

The Problems start when you have Student A and Student B, and the worse case was when I had Students A, B, C and D, because they all fed off each other. A snide remark will get complimented, another student will riff off it, a third will laugh and that just encourages the next student to try and out do them, and they are this little pod that just generates trouble and makes getting anything done impossible, because they feed off each other and reinforce each other.

So, does Sophia have a warped world-view? Absolutely. But also Emma was trying too hard and pushing to prove to herself that she wasn't a victim, and Madison was a type of person to whom everything seems to have been juvenile and funny. Putting all three of them together, you could see Sophia giving them the sense of "us vs them, and we hurt them so they don't hurt us", Madison offering a childish suggestion, and then Emma pushing it to 12 because she wants to prove how hard she is and impress Sophia, and they just feed off each other's actions.

But change the dynamic, by adding Taylor and removing the focus of their actions... and things will turn out way differently. Because truly, adding or removing a single person to a group can literally change EVERYTHING. A single missing student can change the entire classroom dynamic in a moment.

So, maybe that is the way to look at it. More like chemistry and catalysts than nature vs nurture?
Wow, that perspective was pretty illuminating.
Not even just about this specific issue, but in giving a concrete understanding of a pattern in human social interaction and psychology.

Glad to see Emma being silly, it's nice.

That said now we have our core 3 up and running and we haven't hit this story's Alien Force Phase yet.

That said, I kind like it, if you look at the composition (and how Emma is probably definitely going to get magic maybe) their style is a lot less direct than the og crew. It fits.
I mean, Emma already has the red hair. That's prerequisite one for magic, right?
 
Not too sure about the worm version. Shards influence their hosts, stronger in cases like Sophia. But they don't usually lock them into a singly type of emotional and thought pattern, without any chance at all of change. It might be more difficult than in an equivalent 'normal' person, but still possible.
One also ought to remember that there are a bunch of shitty people in worm canon that got better over the course of the story. They might never become fonts of empathy and understanding, but that's not the question anyway.
Unfortunately, pre-Ward Worm was indeed that mono-focused. Remember, a Host wasn't meant to survive more than a few years, if not months. Sophia was in fact that insane, due to how young she was when she Triggered. Her Shard dramatically enhanced her aggression enough even the PRT made a note of it in her files.

As for how likley it is she can change... We are talking about the girl who, when faced with the reality, at the end of things, that she had nobody and nothing left, was content that she could "annoy the depressing, creepy little geek from high school".

Yes, she's that petty.
 
Unfortunately, pre-Ward Worm was indeed that mono-focused. Remember, a Host wasn't meant to survive more than a few years, if not months. Sophia was in fact that insane, due to how young she was when she Triggered. Her Shard dramatically enhanced her aggression enough even the PRT made a note of it in her files.

As for how likley it is she can change... We are talking about the girl who, when faced with the reality, at the end of things, that she had nobody and nothing left, was content that she could "annoy the depressing, creepy little geek from high school".

Yes, she's that petty.

Sure but... did she have anything other than petty spite left for her at that point?

Another thing to remember about Worm is basically no one ever tried to make things better. Especially for Sophia. She was just "that violent, crazy ***** who we can point at problems that need killing." I can't think of anyone who actually tried to change her behavior or be her friend in a real way or ever try to force her to do something not fighting people.

And in worm, that's because we are Grimdark and Hard People making Hard Decisions which means that sometimes we use violent, crazy people because at least they are supporting the structure of the world. But that doesn't mean it HAS to be that way in this cross-over.
 
Plus, that was after years of enabling behavior from Emma and others. This Sophia is a lot less set in her ways than in Worm, just like Taylor and Emma.
 
One very important thing to remember, in Canon the Predator and Prey thing was something that she bullshitted at Emma, and wasn't something she honestly believed, and was a little thrown when Emma followed through with it later on.
 
One very important thing to remember, in Canon the Predator and Prey thing was something that she bullshitted at Emma, and wasn't something she honestly believed, and was a little thrown when Emma followed through with it later on.
True, what Sophia cared more about was doing what she wanted. When people tried to confine her, tell her she was a villain, and of course show conclusively how little her power could do compared to the big dogs, that just reinforced what Sophia already thought. She hated being under someone's boot, and would eventually just lash out if the pressure kept up.

But then again, all she ever wanted after a night of making Batman look restrained was to go back out and keep crippling and killing 'criminals' because she was one of the few 'capable of doing what needed to be done'. And we all know by now what that's code for.
 
Hm... well, the post quoting it mentioned some "intense discussion" and Wildbow has a habit of making up bullshit to win arguments on the internet, so I don't know if we can really take this as authoritative. Pun left in after I spotted it.
 
One very important thing to remember, in Canon the Predator and Prey thing was something that she bullshitted at Emma, and wasn't something she honestly believed, and was a little thrown when Emma followed through with it later on.

The whole thing with Sophia honestly just bugs me for so many reasons, and I'm like legitimately surprised to learn the Predator and Prey thing was actually just her BSing despite how everyone writes it as something she believes.

The thing that probably annoys me most is when her life is treated like a casual & irrelevant footnote.

Like…

PRT A: "Whatever happened to that Shadow Stalker girl?"
PRT B: "Pretty sure she's dead."
PRT C: "I thought she was in juvie?"
PRT D: "No, she got transferred."
PRT A: "How does nobody here know what happened?"

Like, she has a family, but instead she'd be casually killed/imprisoned/transferred while blatantly ignoring her family's reactions. I'd be pretty mad if someone identified my sister' killer and just went "eh, accidents happen and also she was a huge ***** so she deserved it".
 
The whole thing with Sophia honestly just bugs me for so many reasons, and I'm like legitimately surprised to learn the Predator and Prey thing was actually just her BSing despite how everyone writes it as something she believes.

The thing that probably annoys me most is when her life is treated like a casual & irrelevant footnote.

Like…

PRT A: "Whatever happened to that Shadow Stalker girl?"
PRT B: "Pretty sure she's dead."
PRT C: "I thought she was in juvie?"
PRT D: "No, she got transferred."
PRT A: "How does nobody here know what happened?"

Like, she has a family, but instead she'd be casually killed/imprisoned/transferred while blatantly ignoring her family's reactions. I'd be pretty mad if someone identified my sister' killer and just went "eh, accidents happen and also she was a huge ***** so she deserved it".

I only vaguely remember like... a single scene where I think we see her family, but aren't they implied to be... utter shit?

I know the "real" answer was narrative convience, giving her a family would take up more time in the story so their reactions are kind of just ignored, but in a place as messed up as Brockton Bay, I could see a family who literally doesn't care if she is alive or dead.

Now, the PRT and gov't people not caring and losing track of her is worse, if only because she IS dangerous and "we didn't care enough to keep track of that serial assaulter who has murdered people" is... not a good look.


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But, I had a tangent thought I was coming to post.

The question of "is magic going to be a thing" is pretty easy to answer. Something like magic is going to exist, whether we say it is aliens or Shards or actual magic is going to be semantics, the visuals will be there.

But... are magical items going to exist? I'm thinking of the charms that were key in that early plot with Charmcaster and Hex (BTW, I would LOVE to see some really good stuff done with Charmcaster specifically and her and Hex in general). I could see some... I believe the term is "clarke-tech" where it is actually hyper-advanced physics breaking science, but then that is Tinker Tech anyways, so that would feel strange to have them work that way. And I think I remember a magical team in Worm that used charms they made, but I think they only worked for them.

I'm thinking more like, actual magical relic that can work for anyone and even tinker tech agrees it isn't tech. I don't remember if things like that existed in Worm, and the few things I can think of in Ben 10 ended up... just being alien tech anyways, or could be logically assumed to be such.
 
I only vaguely remember like... a single scene where I think we see her family, but aren't they implied to be... utter shit?

Still, I personally like to believe being family actually means something and just about anyone is gonna be peeved that their family member's killer was identified only to be practically praised for it. Seriously, people really don't think out the long term consequences of a Ward getting "accidentally" murdered by someone who hated her.
 
So, maybe that is the way to look at it. More like chemistry and catalysts than nature vs nurture?
I am a bit more open to that idea given Lunaryon's info that I didn't know before, with the new perspective of "Sophia lit the fire, but Emma aimed and pulled the trigger on the flamethrower". It does bring up the question of how we decide if some contentious people are to be "managed" or if we will attempt to reform them before they escalate to become what they become in Canon.

For example, as of this moment and until further notice, there's some part of Armsmaster that would consider the death of a teenage super villain worth the chance for him to land the killing blow on an Endbringer (not "worth killing an Endbringer", but "worth the CHANCE for HIM to land the killing blow"). It's unclear if this Taylor will ever be in the position to discover this, let alone be in a position to change it, but it does bear keeping in mind.
I'm thinking more like, actual magical relic that can work for anyone and even tinker tech agrees it isn't tech. I don't remember if things like that existed in Worm, and the few things I can think of in Ben 10 ended up... just being alien tech anyways, or could be logically assumed to be such.
I believe that Wildbow has said all of his stories are part of the same "expanded multiverse", which would include the magic found in the story Pact. If I had to choose, I would prefer this story have 1. Ben 10's magic. 2. No magic 3. Pact's magic.
 
For example, as of this moment and until further notice, there's some part of Armsmaster that would consider the death of a teenage super villain worth the chance for him to land the killing blow on an Endbringer (not "worth killing an Endbringer", but "worth the CHANCE for HIM to land the killing blow"). It's unclear if this Taylor will ever be in the position to discover this, let alone be in a position to change it, but it does bear keeping in mind.
Honestly, other than the Endbringer truce, that's a pretty good deal. As a civilian, I might honestly shrug and say '... so?'
 
I am a bit more open to that idea given Lunaryon's info that I didn't know before, with the new perspective of "Sophia lit the fire, but Emma aimed and pulled the trigger on the flamethrower". It does bring up the question of how we decide if some contentious people are to be "managed" or if we will attempt to reform them before they escalate to become what they become in Canon.

For example, as of this moment and until further notice, there's some part of Armsmaster that would consider the death of a teenage super villain worth the chance for him to land the killing blow on an Endbringer (not "worth killing an Endbringer", but "worth the CHANCE for HIM to land the killing blow"). It's unclear if this Taylor will ever be in the position to discover this, let alone be in a position to change it, but it does bear keeping in mind.

It is worth keeping in mind, and I would say that we should treat people based on what we see in this story, nothing more.

Because, well... Armsmaster isn't necessarily a bad person for this. I'm not saying I'd make the same decision, but we have to remember the Endbringers probably have body counts in the MILLIONS by now. They were such a ubiquitous part of the world that people don't even really think of or mention them, it is just "sometimes a city is wiped off the map, it happens"

And, yes, teenagers are young... but there is also the term "Super Villain". There would probably be a lot of people who would be fine with the death of Shadowstalker if it gave them a chance to save millions of lives.

So, this gets into some really sticky and tricky moral philosophy QUICK and basically ends up being not only a "sacrifice one for the many" but a question of "does the life of an evil person weigh the same as the life of a good person" and "does the life of a young (teenage) person outweigh the life of an adult"

Is Amrmaster's choice cold and grey? Yes. But morally wrong? 😬

I believe that Wildbow has said all of his stories are part of the same "expanded multiverse", which would include the magic found in the story Pact. If I had to choose, I would prefer this story have 1. Ben 10's magic. 2. No magic 3. Pact's magic.

Pact was quite good. Pact magic would be fun.
 
Unfortunately, I have not read Pact, because I ended up burnt out even on Worm before the end, and I really wasn't wanting to feel even more depressed by reading anything else Bow had written.
 
Everything i have heard of the Ward, especially from the people who are fans of it, has made me convinced that not reading it is the right decision.
And my one attempt at reading Pact ended with me being so very, very bored.
 
Unfortunately, I have not read Pact, because I ended up burnt out even on Worm before the end, and I really wasn't wanting to feel even more depressed by reading anything else Bow had written.

Pact isn't actually that depressing, the more I think about it. It has dark moments and people breaking, but it ends on a much more... peaceful note.

That said, it is his weakest writing between the three I was aware of (Worm, PAct, Twig) because he really didn't know WHAT the story was supposed to be until like halfway or more through it. So it ends up having some really radical tone shifts and un-shadowed twists, because he changed direction rather suddenly.

I stole a lot of ideas for world-building from Pact though, because it was really entertaining for me.


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Everything i have heard of the Ward, especially from the people who are fans of it, has made me convinced that not reading it is the right decision.
And my one attempt at reading Pact ended with me being so very, very bored.

I tried reading Wards "recently" but it had been years since I had read Worm, which made it... really hard to read. I think I got to "chapter 6" or so, but I kept having to stop because I didn't remember so many of the characters and it was written like I was supposed to have remembered them.
 
I am yet again feeling very validated in my continued stance of only ever reading Worm Crossovers with media I already like whilst also never touching Worm itself.
 
Pact was quite good. Pact magic would be fun.
...Pact's magic system COULD be fun, depending on context. The communities and culture that were presented in Pact that were based on said magic are Not Fun, and I do not wish to see them again.
Pact isn't actually that depressing, the more I think about it. It has dark moments and people breaking, but it ends on a much more... peaceful note.

That said, it is his weakest writing between the three I was aware of (Worm, PAct, Twig) because he really didn't know WHAT the story was supposed to be until like halfway or more through it. So it ends up having some really radical tone shifts and un-shadowed twists, because he changed direction rather suddenly.

I stole a lot of ideas for world-building from Pact though, because it was really entertaining for me.
...I'm glad that you managed to derive some joy and inspiration from the story. I came away from the experience viewing it as a thesis on "why NOBODY should ever want to be part of a magical world." The wretched goblins, scheming fae, monstrous Incarnations, generational karmic debt, and hellscapes were bad enough, but it was the attitudes and actions of the human (and presumably more relatable) Practioners that really soured me on the setting.

Perhaps the POV of a hated Diabolist simply caused us to see everyone's worst side. Perhaps Jacob's Bell and Toronto are supposed to be negative examples, rather than how "regular" magical communities run in that world. But the pervasive zero-sum-game philosophy where protecting muggles is considered a waste, where the ongoing atrocities of the neighbors is "Not My Problem", where Karma is considered "a resource to be spent as necessary"... I think Worm has enough garbage to try and fix without bringing that in.

I think I recall my reaction to the threat of the remaining magical characters being dragged into Hell while leaving the muggles alone as "are we sure that wouldn't be a net gain for the world at large?"
 
...Pact's magic system COULD be fun, depending on context. The communities and culture that were presented in Pact that were based on said magic are Not Fun, and I do not wish to see them again.

...I'm glad that you managed to derive some joy and inspiration from the story. I came away from the experience viewing it as a thesis on "why NOBODY should ever want to be part of a magical world." The wretched goblins, scheming fae, monstrous Incarnations, generational karmic debt, and hellscapes were bad enough, but it was the attitudes and actions of the human (and presumably more relatable) Practioners that really soured me on the setting.

Perhaps the POV of a hated Diabolist simply caused us to see everyone's worst side. Perhaps Jacob's Bell and Toronto are supposed to be negative examples, rather than how "regular" magical communities run in that world. But the pervasive zero-sum-game philosophy where protecting muggles is considered a waste, where the ongoing atrocities of the neighbors is "Not My Problem", where Karma is considered "a resource to be spent as necessary"... I think Worm has enough garbage to try and fix without bringing that in.

I think I recall my reaction to the threat of the remaining magical characters being dragged into Hell while leaving the muggles alone as "are we sure that wouldn't be a net gain for the world at large?"

Fair, but also...

I don't know. It rings true? Not in a good way, not in a way I think is positive, but if people did know and could measure Karma... that is how some people would treat it.

I guess it also comes from Wildbow wanting to make a story about one person, alone, struggling to understand a world where NO ONE would help them and that lack of help pushes them to do things they would never normally consider. And for that to work, he needed to make them fairly shitty people. I can easily see it as a case where the thematic elements of the story forced a narrative that is almost unrealistic.


Speaking about the Fey though... MAN, as much as it is terrifying and makes me never wish to meet one in person, that scene with the backpack and the homework was so utterly PERFECT. Cruel and heartless and heartbreaking, but so utterly FEY. There is a reason they can be more terrifying than any demon.
 
Intellectually, I could make peace with SOME mages being selfish jerks with magic; that's more statistics than anything else. But when almost ALL the mages you see in the story use some form of that philosophy to varying degrees, it becomes unclear whether Blake has just run into a high-density pocket of jerks, or if the setting is Just Like That. To steal terms from Lunaryon's other quest, if you told me that my "Corrupt Superheroes" game has an optional magic supplement, but that most of the monsters are actively malicious AND almost every mage mid-tier and above is an Onogoran, and there is no Spellblade faction... then I'd probably think twice about if I actually want to add that in.

...That Fey scene was very well done, though, not gonna lie.
 
Speaking about the Fey though... MAN, as much as it is terrifying and makes me never wish to meet one in person, that scene with the backpack and the homework was so utterly PERFECT. Cruel and heartless and heartbreaking, but so utterly FEY. There is a reason they can be more terrifying than any demon.

... Do I want to know?
 
... Do I want to know?
If you'd really like a summary, peek below. Nothing gory or ghastly, just a special flavor of cruelty.

A young mage named Maggie Holt wished to help a friend of hers in a perilous mission, but she was fairly new to the world of magic, and wasn't strong enough to stand much of a fighting chance against any of the real powerhouses. A fey named Padriac approached her and said, "I will loan Maggie Holt a portion of my power. In exchange, Maggie Holt will agree to go to Toronto to help with the mission, and you will let me take some small item from your bookbag." Maggie agreed, and handed over her bookbag. Padriac rifled through until he pulled out a homework assignment.

With her name on it.

And so the fey with the name Maggie Holt glamoured himself as a young mage and went off to a fun adventure in Toronto, and the girl with the checked scarf, now stripped of her identity and all her magical power and protections with nothing to show for it, was left to pick up the pieces.
 
And this whole conversation is exactly the kind of thing that is the reason why the only Worm fics I read are fix-it AUs that tell Wildbow and his depressing headcanons to buzz off while we play in the sandbox that no longer belongs to him because he couldn't play nice with his toys.
 
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