DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The chaplain will be a be available in the captain's at sea cabin.....
: p
Deus Pater (Exalted/40k)
- Thread starter Maugan Ra
- Start date
- Crossover
The chaplain will be a be available in the captain's at sea cabin.....
: p
As an aside, this isn't how I'd see most naval recruitment happening in the Imperium.
To be clear, the Navy is a rapacious beast that consumes men and women in the same way it does shells and fuel, and there are totally press gangs. But much like actual Royal Navy impressment in the 18th century, I imagine the real situation is often complicated. Particularly, the Imperial Navy offers regular meals, training in technical skills, probably some kind of wage, as well as the option of retirement to fairly cushy jobs in the merchant or auxiliary fleets, who have their guns crewed by ex-naval ratings. Large fleet actions where tens of thousands burn in an eyeblink are pretty rare, most of the time, although constant low level anti-pirate and patrol duties are common. For a lot of people on the lowest rung of the Imperium, that's probably a pretty good offer.
This means that in many cases, I suspect the shotguns and boarding pikes that impressment parties carry in their usual recruiting grounds are often to protect them from being swarmed by people trying to join up.
In the case of a major naval war the situation is probably a lot tougher. The Navy will need large numbers of new recruits to re-activate mothballed ships and replace losses, just at the time when wages on developed worlds will be rising due to munitions factories and war industries going up-tempo, and the Guard may also be squeezing liquid manpower. Plus, the Holy Fleet will effectively be competing with itself, given the Merchant Fleet may also be recruiting more people for convoys. The Navy may also need to impress large numbers of recruits abruptly, at unpredictable times and places, as a result of fleet actions. This may all in some sense actually save lives in the bigger picture, but it is deeply inhumane, and could be achieved with less harm and better effect, if the system were not so dysfunctional.
Sanguis is a relatively comfortable world, which probably reduces the pool of people who'll take a profession, free food, shelter and booze in exchange for free lashes and potentially never seeing their families again. I'd suspect there are still enough "willing" recruits, when you look at convicts, desperate people, people who would join the Foreign Legion today; but they need to be filtered and gathered by the government. Which suggests to me that the Navy bursting in unannounced and grabbing people off of the street like this - a tremendously inefficient way to do things on a world you have standing arrangements with - was the result of either a crisis, or someone higher up deliberately trying to send a message.
Which is part of why I think taking the initiative here was probably the right call. There's no point writing a letter of complaint if they've just thrown a brick through your window.
To be clear, the Navy is a rapacious beast that consumes men and women in the same way it does shells and fuel, and there are totally press gangs. But much like actual Royal Navy impressment in the 18th century, I imagine the real situation is often complicated. Particularly, the Imperial Navy offers regular meals, training in technical skills, probably some kind of wage, as well as the option of retirement to fairly cushy jobs in the merchant or auxiliary fleets, who have their guns crewed by ex-naval ratings. Large fleet actions where tens of thousands burn in an eyeblink are pretty rare, most of the time, although constant low level anti-pirate and patrol duties are common. For a lot of people on the lowest rung of the Imperium, that's probably a pretty good offer.
This means that in many cases, I suspect the shotguns and boarding pikes that impressment parties carry in their usual recruiting grounds are often to protect them from being swarmed by people trying to join up.
In the case of a major naval war the situation is probably a lot tougher. The Navy will need large numbers of new recruits to re-activate mothballed ships and replace losses, just at the time when wages on developed worlds will be rising due to munitions factories and war industries going up-tempo, and the Guard may also be squeezing liquid manpower. Plus, the Holy Fleet will effectively be competing with itself, given the Merchant Fleet may also be recruiting more people for convoys. The Navy may also need to impress large numbers of recruits abruptly, at unpredictable times and places, as a result of fleet actions. This may all in some sense actually save lives in the bigger picture, but it is deeply inhumane, and could be achieved with less harm and better effect, if the system were not so dysfunctional.
Sanguis is a relatively comfortable world, which probably reduces the pool of people who'll take a profession, free food, shelter and booze in exchange for free lashes and potentially never seeing their families again. I'd suspect there are still enough "willing" recruits, when you look at convicts, desperate people, people who would join the Foreign Legion today; but they need to be filtered and gathered by the government. Which suggests to me that the Navy bursting in unannounced and grabbing people off of the street like this - a tremendously inefficient way to do things on a world you have standing arrangements with - was the result of either a crisis, or someone higher up deliberately trying to send a message.
Which is part of why I think taking the initiative here was probably the right call. There's no point writing a letter of complaint if they've just thrown a brick through your window.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
It's also worth noting that Imperial Navy warships are actually large and expensive enough that despite not being treasured, irreplaceable relics like Archeotech, they nevertheless cross the threshold into the territory of Things The Imperium Cares About Losing.
The Navy is actually in many ways the polar opposite of the Guard; the average Navy Commander or Admiral tends to be a cautious soul who prioritises, and more than that, is expected to prioritise, the preservation of their ship above attaining decisive victories over the enemy. I recall an in-universe tactical assessment which stated that in the face of the self-repair capabilities of a Necron ship and the excessive value of a crippled hulk, battle with Necrons called for reckless aggression - and implied that this was an extraordinary break with standard doctrine. All of which means being a rating on a Navy ship can be a surprisingly safe job, all things considered - opportunities for industrial accidents or being made an example of for your fellows abound, but at least the captain doesn't shrug off your area getting blown to smithereens as acceptable losses, even if that has more to do with the mechanism's lost than the people killed while crewing them.
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DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
*considers implications of above*
.. .go navy beatarmy guard
: P
.. .go navy beat
: P
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
The downside is that when things go wrong, Navy ratings tend to die by the truckload.
Because they're not allowed to have actually decent equipment for close quarters combat, because that would make them able to compete with the Guard, which defeats the checks and balances thing.
So Naval Ratings get--at best--leather jackets and shotguns to fight boarding actions with.
I always found that to be a rather stupid limitation that I wouldn't translate one to one into the actual situation. I personally take it more as inspiration that the general equipment level of the naval ratings is significantly lower than that of the army but wouldn't use it to negate the existence of for example naval "special forces", relatively well equipped and certainly very limited in number but still. Something that has a bit more staying power when it comes to stuff like a demon incursion or mutiny. It seems more realistic and believable to me while still keeping the general theme/intent of the idea. Sure it might not be pure canon but then in my opinion wh40k is setting which invites such modifications. But this isn't my story and following canon is far from the worst idea (well other than the pike thing, that just seems ludicrous to me).
And speaking of demons, I would argue that depending on your interpretation of warp travel and its effects it could really limit the amount of people willing to join the navy etc. Travelling though literal hell on a regular basis probably doesn't sound to enticing to the average citizen (though I guess the other questions is how much the average citizens knows about space travel in the first case)
I was torn on this.
Untill I envisioned us speaking to the planet.
"My children! I now in space, taking the good word to the misdirected Navy"
Navy: "He's WHERE!"
-
Also the sisters will probably be fans of this approach
Untill I envisioned us speaking to the planet.
"My children! I now in space, taking the good word to the misdirected Navy"
Navy: "He's WHERE!"
-
Also the sisters will probably be fans of this approach
- Location
- London, England
Navy Ratings and Armsmen vary tremendously according to sector, ship and social class. Sometimes a rating will just be the dude who normally loads the cannons, given a boarding axe and a flak jacket. Sometimes he will be a sworn retainer of the First Lieutenant and be equipped with shotcannons, flashbangs and void-sealed carapace.
Similarly, many Imperial ships do recruit conventionally and offer decent wages + comforts to their crews, but others are 90% slave labour harvested from whatever planet they can get permission to operate on. This is largely down to the Captain and the institutions and traditions of the ship, plus a side order in local conditions - a famous Navy ship with a charismatic captain that managed to secure some proper auto-loaders and other advanced systems from the Mechanicus is going to be a much nicer place to work and have a higher portion of volunteers than, say, a third-rate transport ship commanded by a callous martinet.
The Imperium doesn't really do universal standards.
Similarly, many Imperial ships do recruit conventionally and offer decent wages + comforts to their crews, but others are 90% slave labour harvested from whatever planet they can get permission to operate on. This is largely down to the Captain and the institutions and traditions of the ship, plus a side order in local conditions - a famous Navy ship with a charismatic captain that managed to secure some proper auto-loaders and other advanced systems from the Mechanicus is going to be a much nicer place to work and have a higher portion of volunteers than, say, a third-rate transport ship commanded by a callous martinet.
The Imperium doesn't really do universal standards.
I'd also note that simple logic says that spending resources arming naval ratings who are PROBABLY not going to be using those weapons(except in a mutiny) in their lifetimes unless facing Orks, Space Marines or other Boarder attack types with massive close quarters superiority where the armor isn't going to matter and the guns are as big a threat to the ship as the hostiles...is a pretty low priority to the Administratum compared to the Guard who are SUPPOSED to engage in lots of direct combat and thus should get all the dakka.
So they're about as armed as the ship's commander is willing to spend additional favors and resources for marginal gains or where the Imperium SOMEHOW has an excess of dakka locally.
- Location
- United States of America, Michigan
Can't the Navy request some Imperial Guard support if they expect to get into a battle with a boarder happy enemy? Sure it won't always happen because bureaucracy or help if you get ambushed but it let's the Imperium keep the navy reliant on another of its arms(the guard) while lessening a major gap in its space game.
- Location
- Upon the back of the Great A'Tuin
If I recall correctly the IG and Navy were separated after the Heresy to make it more difficult for a single leader to get both ground and space assets if they fall to serve the enemy. So that plan would probably be a no-go outside of special circumstances.
Nix's Warden
Welcome to Hades
- Location
- United States
It's true. It's also the reasoning given IC for a large part of the Imperiums bureaucratic inefficiency and redundant/unnecessary offices, that way it's almost impossible to curropt a single figure within the Imperium, no matter how highly placed, and give Chaos a too powerful foothold within the Imperium. There's always a office you have to go to, a higher authority you have address, local departments that need to give you the go ahead, so a single chaos cultist usually can't do too much damage to the imperium as a whole.
Raybomber
Soldier of Fortune
- Location
- Cape Town
This, such as the Imperial Army during Great Crusade era was actually a combined arms force.
While its great drama and thus features in books a lot, there SHOULDN'T actually be that many gribbly infestations unless a ship is particularly old and poorly maintained, or unless its spent a lot of time in gribbly zones. Or you wouldn't have shipping, period. You could just issue them a bunch of swords, cattle prods or spears in the event of minor gribbly infestation. Less likely to cause collateral to the ship's equipment
And for mutinies, poorly armed ratings is actually more useful. It means they have power tools to mutiny with...until the commander marches down with marine-equivalents.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Personally I think of that more as bureaucratic justifying their own existence.
- Location
- Austria
*looks at Occult charms in charsheet*
Article: Occult
Spirit Detecting Glance - 3m commitment. The touch of the Emperor has made Ignatius a creature of two worlds; he may perceive, but not touch, immaterial spirits if he cares to look for them.
- Location
- London, England
*looks at Occult charms in charsheet*
Article: Occult
Spirit Detecting Glance - 3m commitment. The touch of the Emperor has made Ignatius a creature of two worlds; he may perceive, but not touch, immaterial spirits if he cares to look for them.
I meant what I said and I said what I meant.
There are spirits and there are spirits, so to speak.
Honestly I've never really thought that Navy crews were particularly poorly armed for boarding actions. Obviously it varies a lot, as @Maugan Ra says, and merchant vessel crews are often pretty poorly armed because of course they would be. But in general the "standard" seems to be the naval shotgun, regarded as a heavy and very formidable weapon by the standards of the combat shotguns used by the Guard. These are kept in arms lockers, and issued to ratings when a boarding action happens; a lot of mutinies revolve around getting access to the arms lockers. Officers will carry sabres and cutlasses, as well as pistols. In the Eisenhorn novels, Naval Security are portrayed as essentially up to the standards of IG Storm Troopers, if a little better, although they're not hugely mentioned elsewhere. Regardless, elite detachments of marines or the retinues of individual captains make a lot of sense, and elite detachments are a campaign refit in Battlefleet Gothic.
Looking at the armament more closely, I would keep in mind that shotguns are pretty much the ideal weapon for fighting aboard ships. They put out a lot of hurt over a palm-sized area at close range, which is ideal when fighting in corridors, and the shot is low-energy enough to avoid going through bulkheads and causing decompressions or hitting something important. Flamethrowers or grenade launchers? Would often be a lethal liability in confined spaces. Las-carbines like those carried by the Guard would be possible, sure, but not actually advantageous over shotguns in either lethality or safety aboard ship. Specialised stuff like melta weapons for getting through hulls or airlocks would be useful, and better ships might carry better equipment. I also suspect breaching charges or concussion grenades might be carried by warrant officers; you don't want ratings killing an entire boarding party from overpressure.
It's a misconception, I think, that the Navy has poor equipment for its crewmen because they can't be allowed to conduct major planetary invasions alone. This second part is true, but the kind of things that are the main killing tools of a planetary army are artillery, tanks, vehicles, and crew-served weapons. Plus the logistical and communications structure to make all of that actually an effective combined-arms machine.* What kind of guns the crew carry are honestly not especially relevant in that kind of calculation. Naval vessels will carry the standard complement of sidearms which are actually useful to their mission, plus whatever their captain can scrounge up, or minus whatever they sell off from the lockers if they're corrupt.
Lastly, in my view it wouldn't be correct to say that boarding actions are rare occurrence for the Imperial Navy. They are portrayed as frequently being a major part of the closing phases of naval engagements, since capital ships are easy to cripple but relatively hard to kill, and can be valuable taken intact. Against Orks and Tyranids, two of the most common enemies of the Imperium, they're almost a certainty at some point. But leaving aside major battles, remember that the day-to-day job of the Navy is patrolling Imperial space, protecting and policing commerce, and hunting down pirates. This means a great deal of boarding merchantmen to inspect their cargoes, and some of those merchantmen will actually be pirates masquerading as merchantmen, because that's how most pirates actually operate. Being able to draw up good boarding parties is a necessity, for any Captain worth their epaulettes.
*(One can to some extent make up for a lot of that with the skilled and judicious use of orbital strikes, as the Space Marines do, and a desire to avoid that is probably why Navy-Guard cooperation is often pretty poor with the exception of aerospace aviation. Individual captains probably do learn to be highly effective at supporting ground strikes with orbital fires, like the frigate captain in Gaunt's Ghosts, and whole battlegroups may relearn the skills in major Crusades like the Macharian Crusade. This is the kind of thing which probably gives the Administratum and Inquisition sleepless nights, because it means individual captains become even more capable of conquering small worlds by themselves, aside from simply holding them to ransom with their guns.)
Think part of it is that people are inadvertedly comparing performance of IG vs Navy in an open field white room conditions. In which case the Navy is poorly equipped.
But put the same IG in boarding conditions and well...it ain't looking good for the boat repair bill
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Real question is
how well do navy crews go against an old man with soul powers and his retinue of battle sisters?
how well do navy crews go against an old man with soul powers and his retinue of battle sisters?
Refer to what happens to most unaugmented humans facing supercombatants in spaces where they cannot leverage numerical superiority?
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
google replied with "did you mean 'meat grinder'?"