I mean...Inventing democracy earns you some kudos. While the Persians definitely had a lot of moral high ground, mostly in the form of not doing slavery, if they'd won, not only would democracy be strangled in its crib, but so much art, literature, science, the very word "music", the entirely of western culture as we know it, would be wiped out.
To be fair, the art, literature, music, and so on, would probably have been replaced with other, entirely different art, literature, music, and so on, that would probably have been about as good. And the science would still get done by somebody in all likelihood; the Greeks weren't the only people in the world who knew how to think.

It seems to me that the concept of democracy, specifically, is actually the thing that would be most likely to get butterflied away by a Persian conquest of Greece, not all the rest. Because as far as I know, democracy wasn't a common global practice that everybody in the cityfied* world engaged in, the way "literature" and "philosophy" are. Democracy was this weird cultural thing, a strange form of self-governance practiced by the menfolk of a few tribes** of Greeks.

It was more or less inevitable that someone would discover, say, Archimedes' Principle, because that's a basic physical property of the universe. More or less inevitably, someone would outline the Law of the Excluded Middle in codified form, even if Aristotle had never lived.

I'm not sure it's so inevitable, looking across the globe, that the idea of universal suffrage among the defined set of first-class citizens would have caught on without ancient Greece.
________________________

*[I'm trying for the concept of civilized world, as in 'world that has communities centered on relatively large and relatively developed cities and infrastructure' without the connotation of 'the only part of the world that has real culture and decency,' here. Because my point is that relatively few of the large and expansive cultures of the ancient world that had things like writing and big armies practiced democracy, even if there were lots of societies and communities that didn't have things like writing and big armies. This isn't about saying that the people who had democracy, but not big armies and writing, were somehow worse, just that the people with big armies and writing were more or less inevitably going to play the bigger role in shaping what was actually going to happen in the future of human history]

*[As pointed out earlier, the 'polis' is essentially a tribal conception of political identity]
 
My opinion on Athens begins and ends with the Peloponnesian War, and their atrocities. Athens was a mob of greedy murderers, and in the end they got their just crushing by a very savage murderer state, and the only sane state until you reached India, The Achaemenids.
I don't know how to tell you that, but the Achaemenid Empire didn't exactly reach this position by being happy friends with everyone; they were conquerors par excellence! To emphasize how willing the Achaemenid Empire was to use force, I will quote the Behistun inscription of Darius the Great, which is one of the most well-preserved texts from the Empire that we have:

Darius the Great said:
I am Darius, the great king, king of kings, king of Persia, king of the countries, the son of Hystaspes, the grandson of Arshama, the Achaemenide. Says Darius the king my father is Hystaspes, the father of Hystaspes is Arshama, the father of Arshama is Ariyaramana, the father of Ariyaramana is Caispis, the father of Caispis is Achaemenes. Says Darius the king therefore we are called Achaemenides; from long ago we have extended; from long ago our family have been kings. Says Darius the king VIII of my family there were who were formerly kings; I am the ninth IX; individually we are kings.

This Gaumata the Median lied; thus he said; I am Bardiya, the son of Cyrus; I am king.

This Attrina lied; thus he said; I am king in Uvaja.

This Naditabiralied lied; thus he said; I am Nabukudracara, the son of Nabunita; I am king in Babylon.

This Fravartis lied; thus he said; I am Khshathrita of the family of Uvakhshatara; I am king in Media.

This Martiya lied; thus he said; I am Imanis, king in Uvaja.

This Citrantakhma lied; thus he said; I am king in Sagartia, of the family of Uvakhshatara.

This Vahyazdata lied; thus he said; I am Bardiya, the son of Cyrus; I am king.

This Arakha lied; thus he said; I am Nabukudracara, the son of Nabunita; I am king in Babylon.

This Frada lied; thus he said; I am king in Margus.

The Persian Empire wasn't actually a state, though. Serfdom was still entirely fine at the local level, because the empire more or less maintained whatever traditional customs had been there at the time. The empire also had to do a lot of 'greedy murdering' in order to get to the point of being the Persian Empire.
I think Cetashwayo's first point here is important to emphasize. The Xshassa Haxamanishiya was in many ways more comparable to a confederation kept together by the Xshayathiya Xshayathiyam and his line. In some ways, it can best be described as one empire, but many states. Certain institutions are evident of centralized authority, such as the royal Mediterranean fleet, the Chapar Khaneh, the grand imperial monuments and taxation systems. But this does not tell the whole story; the entire eastern half of the empire barely used money at all, darics and sigloi were only minted in the west, and even then almost only in the great satrapy of Lydia, where the royal mint was located. Egypt was effectively independent except when the Kshayathiya Xshayathiyam came over to remind them they were supposed to pay tribute to him and the satrapies often became extremely independent when central power decayed; far more commonly so than is common with a stagnating empire. I idly noted to @Cetashwayo last night that every great ruler of the empire always added "reform of the satrapies" to their repetoire, and I think people here should be more than capable of realizing why that is.

It seems to me that the concept of democracy, specifically, is actually the thing that would be most likely to get butterflied away by a Persian conquest of Greece, not all the rest. Because as far as I know, democracy wasn't a common global practice that everybody in the cityfied* world engaged in, the way "literature" and "philosophy" are. Democracy was this weird cultural thing, a strange form of self-governance practiced by the menfolk of a few tribes** of Greeks.
Viking Things existed independently of any Greek influence and so did Medieval parliamentarism. Even further back, the ancient Roman Commonwealth reached a representative (noble) democracy independent of significant Greek influence. The influence of ancient Greek democracy on the administrative traditions of Western Europe is highly debatable.
 
Also a conquest of the greek peninsula and islands in the east wouldn't mean a conquest of all the Greeks. The Greeks had been settling in Italy and Sicily since the eighth century BC and were so well established there to the point the region of southern Italy was called Manga Graecia by the Romans and there were Greek settlements as far west as southern France.

For that matter the Roman republic had already been established by the time of the Greco-Persian wars.
 
Viking Things existed independently of any Greek influence and so did Medieval parliamentarism. Even further back, the ancient Roman Commonwealth reached a representative (noble) democracy independent of significant Greek influence. The influence of ancient Greek democracy on the administrative traditions of Western Europe is highly debatable.

Yeah, medieval parliamentarism was a thing evolved out of feudal institutions, not a Greek inspiration. Liberalism may take slightly different justifications and make less appeal to Greek ideals, but in the end, the seed was still there with the urban bourgeoisie wanting its own system. The representative democracy it ended up building had little in common with the Greek system anyway.
 
Viking Things existed independently of any Greek influence and so did Medieval parliamentarism. Even further back, the ancient Roman Commonwealth reached a representative (noble) democracy independent of significant Greek influence. The influence of ancient Greek democracy on the administrative traditions of Western Europe is highly debatable.
Fair.

Come to think of it, probably the biggest way a Persian conquest of Greece could/would impact the administrative traditions of Western Europe would be if it somehow butterflied the Roman conquests of a few centuries later. That would change things up pretty sharply.
 
I don't know how to tell you that, but the Achaemenid Empire didn't exactly reach this position by being happy friends with everyone; they were conquerors par excellence! To emphasize how willing the Achaemenid Empire was to use force, I will quote the Behistun inscription of Darius the Great, which is one of the most well-preserved texts from the Empire that we have:
I know, but the Athenian Empire was something of greed and well, I may certainly be colored by The Melian debate from Thucydides' great history. Persia was always a conquering state, but they never slaughtered a population literally just because they felt like it.
 
Darius the Great said:
the son of Hystaspes, the grandson of Arshama, the Achaemenide. Says Darius the king my father is Hystaspes, the father of Hystaspes is Arshama, the father of Arshama is Ariyaramana, the father of Ariyaramana is Caispis, the father of Caispis is Achaemenes. Says Darius the king therefore we are called Achaemenides; from long ago we have extended; from long ago our family have been kings. Says Darius the king VIII of my family there were who were formerly kings; I am the ninth IX; individually we are kings.

He sure does ride on that point quite a bit, doesn't he. Almost as if he had to prove something here. One could almost wonder if there is something in the family history. :thonk:

:V
 
He sure does ride on that point quite a bit, doesn't he. Almost as if he had to prove something here. One could almost wonder if there is something in the family history. :thonk:

:V
No, it's just traditional for Achaemenid rulers to start out like that. The only one who does not do it is Cyrus, and that is mostly because we have a total of one inscription from his time and it is a single line. Darius and his successors wrote in a highly archaic form of Old Persian that did not actually reflect the language of the time spoken by the rest of the Iranian peoples under the Empire; this would have read as stodgy and conservative to an ancient Iranian too, whose language would be far closer to the German language's relation with Proto-Indo-European than Old Persian; very little inflection and a remnant gender system with extensive phonological changes.
 
No, it's just traditional for Achaemenid rulers to start out like that. The only one who does not do it is Cyrus, and that is mostly because we have a total of one inscription from his time and it is a single line. Darius and his successors wrote in a highly archaic form of Old Persian that did not actually reflect the language of the time spoken by the rest of the Iranian peoples under the Empire; this would have read as stodgy and conservative to an ancient Iranian too, whose language would be far closer to the German language's relation with Proto-Indo-European than Old Persian; very little inflection and a remnant gender system with extensive phonological changes.
Well, I don't so much mean the style and language (it's in translation anyway, after all :V ) but how he goes on and on and on about his family lineage, whereas rulers at other times and other parts of the world would have more so stressed what territories and powers they command. And well, given Darius' own, maybe a bit dodgy rise to power and family descent... ;)
 
rulers at other times and other parts of the world would have more so stressed what territories and powers they command

I wonder if that's in part due to, like the Japanese Emperors, the territory he commands is 'obvious' and mighty, and who he is is the important bit. He rules all of Persia, no more needs to be said.
 
When you are Ozymandias, king of kings, people don't actually need to ask what "your works" are; they're everything within a month's walk in any direction. :p
 
Well, I don't so much mean the style and language (it's in translation anyway, after all :V ) but how he goes on and on and on about his family lineage, whereas rulers at other times and other parts of the world would have more so stressed what territories and powers they command. And well, given Darius' own, maybe a bit dodgy rise to power and family descent... ;)

We gloss over it, but European monarchs loved to invent lineage for themselves and talk about it too.
 
We gloss over it, but European monarchs loved to invent lineage for themselves and talk about it too.
In most cases they didn't need to invent it :V

The only real case of a House probably falsely claiming descent I can think of off hand is the Guise claim during the French Wars of Religion to be descended from the Merovingians, a way to subtly imply a better claim to the French throne than the Capetian dynasties without actually raising a claim...

But in any case, that was more a thing running in the background. Oh sure, there were some strict rules about descent - orders, tourneys, offices etc where you could only join if all your ancestors going back at least 3 generations were already noble, etc. But those were concerns of the lower nobility, the knights and lords and seigneurs (I suppose you could say "the gentry", but continental and English conceptions of nobility don't mix very well) who had to compete with upstarts from the common classes, and in France in particular upstarts from the common classes sponsored by the kings as a counterweight to the nobility. So they needed to stress their noble descent.

However, among the higher nobility and royalty, their noble status, being descended from Houses reaching centuries back, well, that was just taken for granted and also indeed historical fact. It was nothing you needed to stress in your edicts and proclamations. Instead, those edicts and proclamations of you would list all your titles, real or claimant or traditional. Which, especially in the HRE of course, could take up several lines of the document.

So paragraphs like the one of Darius I quoted are not unfamiliar to me. Whenever you had a German prince issue an edict, you get the same, that the name of the issuer is followed by a whole paragraph of stuff - but as I've said, those were the titles, not the genealogy. And I think in other cultures and civilizations as well, it's mostly the titles/powers you find in official documents of the time...
 
In most cases they didn't need to invent it :V

I meant claiming mythical lineage, not just doing genealogy about their real one.

The Merovingians did try claiming they were descended from Jesus.

There's a lot of examples of kings trying to craft lineages wholesale, especially when they didn't have more traditional legitimacy to turn to.
 
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I meant claiming mythical lineage, not just doing genealogy about their real one.

The Merovingians did try claiming they were descended from Jesus.

There's a lot of examples of kings trying to craft lineages wholesale, especially when they didn't have more traditional legitimacy to turn to.

Like, from his brothers/sisters (breaking the perpetual Virgin Mary thing)? Or like Jesus and Mary Magdalene? Still not as weird as the Sawaguchi's claim.
 
I meant claiming mythical lineage, not just doing genealogy about their real one.

The Merovingians did try claiming they were descended from Jesus.
Yes, that was the other example I nearly listed, but... I don't think they did? That seems to be all part of the modern "Priory of Sion" bs. Though I also read once (but can't remember where! Argh!) that the Merovingians may have had that myth as a sort of replacement for a pre-baptization myth of descent from a Germanic god.

Which, however, shows just the issue: In any case, the Merovingians were not a typical medieval/early modern noble house, but still essentially Germanic kings, pagan Germanic kings at first. They were basically toppled before the Middle Ages could begin properly! Tieing one's descent to the gods was still normal in ancient times (see the Julians' claim to be descended from Venus), and that was a holdover... if it indeed even was the case at all.

It is in any case not at all representative for medieval/early modern European nobility.
 
Like, from his brothers/sisters (breaking the perpetual Virgin Mary thing)? Or like Jesus and Mary Magdalene? Still not as weird as the Sawaguchi's claim.

If it's true, the later. Of course, as @Susano points out, it may be a later construction.

Which, however, shows just the issue: In any case, the Merovingians were not a typical medieval/early modern noble house, but still essentially Germanic kings, pagan Germanic kings at first. They were basically toppled before the Middle Ages could begin properly! Tieing one's descent to the gods was still normal in ancient times (see the Julians' claim to be descended from Venus), and that was a holdover... if it indeed even was the case at all.

Yeah that's fair, that didn't really last into the later middle ages, once kings could rely on the church to create legitimacy.
 
Well, I don't so much mean the style and language (it's in translation anyway, after all :V ) but how he goes on and on and on about his family lineage, whereas rulers at other times and other parts of the world would have more so stressed what territories and powers they command. And well, given Darius' own, maybe a bit dodgy rise to power and family descent... ;)
That's not unique to Darius either. Xerxes I, Artaxerxes I, Darius II, Artaxerxes Mnemon and Artaxerxes Ochus all did the same in their inscriptions although some of them less ostentatiously than Darius. In fact, more or less the only ruler that didn't expound upon his lineage for fucking ages was Cyrus himself, who just wrote "Adam Kurush xshayathiya Haxamanishiya" or "I am Cyrus, the king, the Achaemenid". But this is likely more a result of a complete dearth of sources rather than evident of a trait; I have no doubt that all the Iranian kings were equal in wanting to make translators kill them across the aeons for never getting to the fucking point.

(Seriously, Darius' inscription at Behistan is the absolute worst)
 
There's always the Vasas in Sweden who in many ways had to self-mythologize their family and kingdom into appropriately lofty origins for their new sovereignty and power, even getting their regnal names wrong based off what they believed/conveniently "believed" to be their legendary predecessors and ancestors.
 
I genuinely do not believe that technology, philosophy, and social progress is inevitable. It is the lull in this assurance that is most deadly to the side that is pushing for such change, it assumes a historical basis when I personally see little. If we even just disregard the stone ages, which I do not think is right, and count only since the Agricultural Revolution.. What we consider 'modern' history, which extends back a century, or five, is minuscule in comparison to the total age of civilization. For ten thousand years we have lived communal lives, the distance of land separating communities and tribes. I do not think getting rid of the mundane complexities that currently plague me would leave me any worse off, only within the medicinal field which is hard to combat was also morbidly primitive even just a century ago. Men lived to their eighties even back during Classical Greece, which of course was an advanced civilization, but it is not like it is impossible to die of bad health in today's age. Nor is it even entirely reprehensible in many cases.

I believe that humans have lived as they did for a reason, and our online connection is purely unnatural. We will see rapid change within the next century and using historical context for it will be insufficient to supply the necessary frameworks that we need to move forward. But on the other hand.. I feel at a loss, because I would prefer to live in that era. Even the 80's is mythologized. It is sad, because we can never return, and I cannot tear myself away to segregate myself for my loved ones I care for too much and cannot make the choice for them. But away from my personal bias, I will reaffirm, that the march of history is as I believe not so inevitable. We could have lived another hundred thousand years in relative isolation from technology, and if that march could have went on for that long, as it did for so many other millennia, who is to say how the winding cycle of history would have continued? Personally I believe it is a miracle we began to move ahead so quickly. There must be some point in time where one could pinpoint this progress, and it is likely found within an eurocentric ideal. We have to consider that none of this discourse would be even happening without that geographic reality.

But I still loathe it.
 
There must be some point in time where one could pinpoint this progress

It's agriculture. Once that kicks in, population spikes, societies become more complex out of necessity, and there is enough surplus food for specialist roles to develop. Trade increases, real government gets established, cities get built, and things just take off from there.

There are definitely points after that where changes get faster or slower, but the rate of change in societies with agriculture and societies without it is incomparable.
 
Well, in terms of just technology - in Europe at least, there definitely was a constant, gradual and largely never reversed technological development ever since the Fall of Rome / the start of the Early Middle Ages. That was definitely a developmental low point, but ever since, 1500 years ago, there has been constant technological progress. After all, we shouldn't think that all pre-industrial periods and societies were the same. Even before industrialization, there were huge technological differences. The early and high middle ages saw astonishing progress in agricultural technologies, which was of course absolutely necessary to feed the population (of course, even so, the 13th century was a Malthusian catastrophe). The late middle ages saw astonishing progress in such areas as metallurgy and administrative and trade techniques. The baroque and enlightenment had all those developments in mathematics, physics, astronomy, chemistry, construction, etc etc. That all happened already way before Industrialization.

So in terms of technology, at least, there was no "take-off" point. It is just that the more technology you have, the better conditions you can create for further technological advancements - i.e., the more technology you have, the faster you will get new technologies. It is a speeding up process - and there also is no time when it "began" speeding up, it simply gathered gradually more speed as it went along: Like an exponential curve. The speed of development in the High Middle Ages was unheard of in the Early Middle Ages, but was easily surpassed by the Late Middle Ages/Renaissance, which were easily surpassed by the Enlightenment, which was absolutely cast in the shadow by the industrial 19th century, which was further surpassed by the speed of developent in the 20th century - and so on and so forth.

There is no great secret to it, no "clue". It is just technological development gradually gathering steam and getting gradually ever faster. And that, in Europe at least, for 1500 years now.

Of course, social development is another matter. There, we have only seen a constant and uninterrupted development towards more liberal, egalitarian societies since the 18th century. Before, you had ups and downs. The flowering of 13th century court culture and the vast overpopulation of Europe meant labour was cheap, the lower classes exploited like never before in the early middle ages, and society stratified like never before - but that was 'remedied' by the 14th century population crash (Black Plague, 100 Years War etc), and in the 15th century, when population had actually further fallen, labour was in high demand, the common population was doing okay-ish and commoners were able to raise to academic, financial, administrative position in ways unheard of before... but that didn't last, and the 17th century baroque was the time when exaltation of nobility and class stratification was taken to its most absurd heights yet - which then was reversed again by the rise of the bourgeoisie and the Enlightenment.

So in that regard an up and down, but the current up also is lasting for 300 years already.

I do not think getting rid of the mundane complexities that currently plague me would leave me any worse off, only within the medicinal field which is hard to combat was also morbidly primitive even just a century ago. Men lived to their eighties even back during Classical Greece, which of course was an advanced civilization, but it is not like it is impossible to die of bad health in today's age. Nor is it even entirely reprehensible in many cases.

I am sorry, but you are naive.

"Men" did not live to their eighties in ancient Greece. Some very few men did. Nowadays, the average person can expect to get at least 80. It is projected that people born right now can expect to become 100. Not as some statistical outliers, but as the norm! And what about child mortality? The majority of children dying off before they could become adults!

And that is, indeed, just medicine. What about the constant state of malnourishment for like, 90% of the population? Common people in pre-industrial agricultural societies lived constantly at the very possible physical minimum of existence even in good years. In bad years, there were famines. Malnourishment was commonplace, even common clothes were a luxury, which is why in the middle ages most common people had just two sets of them. Hell, even wooden cutlery was basically held on for life. And even before the Black Plague, epidemies could routinely wipe out large parts of a regional population. And of course, the daily life consisted of bacbreaking constant work.

Can you really imagine that? A life consisting of constant hunger and constant work, huddled together in small, drafty huts, always people around you dying due to illness, hunger or just so? And then of course also, rule by what were nothing more than robber barons, your last grains taken by them as is their right, and also very frequent if not constant warfare - at the very least simmering low-level warfare that will destroy your harvests and what few possessions you might have, but now and then also wars that make that in terms of population percentages dead dwarf WW1 and WW2.

And you want to romanticize those affairs?
 
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Well, I mean what does it even mean to be an agricultural society? I don't think there's ever been a "hunter-gatherer" who's not manipulated their ecosystem seasonally harvesting resources; whether that's damming up and maintaining lakes for consistent and plentiful fishing, or clearing away undergrowth and old wood for next year's nuts and tubers to grow, or keeping around domesticated or semi-domesticated herds, etc.., etc..

Göbekli Tepe was around before writing, metallurgy, pottery, the wheel, properly agricultural cultivation, even animal husbandry. A lot of people have kind of just thrown up their hands and guessed that it was ceremonial, which is sometimes archaeological speak for "we have no idea". Where's the line between places as "semi-settled" villages and towns and like ancient Sumer? What is the difference between cultivating resources in Neolithic hillforts and in Mesopotamian city-states that is so utterly orthogonal to the difference between cultivating resources in Mesopotamian city-states and in Medieval three-field manorial estates or in cultivating resources with the Three Sisters in the New World?
 
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Of course, social development is another matter. There, we have only seen a constant and uninterrupted development towards more liberal, egalitarian societies since the 18th century. Before, you had ups and downs. The flowering of 13th century court culture and the vast overpopulation of Europe meant labour was cheap, the lower classes exploited like never before in the early middle ages, and society stratified like never before - but that was 'remedied' by the 14th century population crash (Black Plague, 100 Years War etc), and in the 15th century, when population had actually further fallen, labour was in high demand, the common population was doing okay-ish and commoners were able to raise to academic, financial, administrative position in ways unheard of before... but that didn't last, and the 17th century baroque was the time when exaltation of nobility and class stratification was taken to its most absurd heights yet - which then was reversed again by the rise of the bourgeoisie and the Enlightenment.

So in that regard an up and down, but the current up also is lasting for 300 years already.

I think this is overstating things a little.
 
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