That is not the case even now, or ever the case in history.

Really, shut up with your utterly wrong and cursed view of history. You don't even know your own Kurdish heritage, what makes you think you have any authority on Chinese or East Asian history?
Concerning Kurdistan, I'm merely stating the fact, that Kurds aren't Arabs, and that the Kurdish language is unrelated to Arabic. Kurdish is an Iranic language closely related to Farsi, and the Iranic languages are Indo-European.

If the Chinese are as heterogenous as you claim, why have China been a unified empire for most of the time since Qin Shi Huang unified China in 221 BCE, why does the Han Chinese consider themselves a single ethnic group and why does no desire for secession exist in China except among the Tibetans, the Uyghurs and the Taiwanese?
 
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If the Chinese are as heterogenous as you claim, why have China been a unified empire for most of the time since Qin Shi Huang unified China in 221 BCE, why does the Han Chinese consider themselves a single ethnic group and why does no desire for secession exist in China except among the Tibetans, the Uyghurs and the Taiwanese?

(1) China has been more divided than united. Unifed China as some continuous polity is a myth.
(2) "Han Chinese" was developed as a concept in the late 19th century with the introduction of nationalism from the West. Before then there was only the concept of "civilized people," regardless of ones ethnicity. If anything, most Han Chinese even now don't consider themselves as one ethnic group.
(3) The same reason why the desire for secession does not exist in other multiethnic countries: It simply isn't worth it unless you have concentration camps, massacres, and cultural genocide.
 
From the famous book on the subject, 1421: China Discovers America.

I am going offmemory, mind, so my number may be off, but I remember it said the fleet zheng he had was large enough that he split it into multiple formations and each still had hundreds of ships.

I hope this doesn't come across as joining a dogpile, but I would caution to be extremely wary of any claims originating from that book. It's probably safer to assume that anything from it is wrong until expressly proven otherwise in all truth.

Just bear in mind: the author of 1421: China Discovers America did not even attend university and dropped out of formal education at the age of 15. This isn't even a non-historian infringing upon history (which is fairly common for anthropologists and archaeologists to do, as an example) this is someone who did not even complete secondary school. There are certain fundamentals of a historian's education that this person is simply not going to have. Especially when dealing with an extremely controversial topic with sparse/nonexistent historical evidence.

That is not the case even now, or ever the case in history.

Really, shut up with your utterly wrong and cursed view of history. You don't even know your own Kurdish heritage, what makes you think you have any authority on Chinese or East Asian history?

This extremely confrontational attitude and borderline personal attacks (Azadi being of Kurdish descent has nothing to do with the argument at hand) doesn't really advance the discussion in any way. Honestly, to borrow a phrase, it just lowers the tone of the debate. There's a better way to express your disagreements.

I've specifically argued against @azadi earlier in this thread and, honestly, while I have to say Azadi: your views on East Asia as a whole and China in particular seem grossly oversimplified, I'm going to assume it's just out of a lack of knowledge rather than any sort of malicious disregard for a region's history.
 
(1) China has been more divided than united. Unifed China as some continuous polity is a myth.
(2) "Han Chinese" was developed as a concept in the late 19th century with the introduction of nationalism from the West. Before then there was only the concept of "civilized people," regardless of ones ethnicity. If anything, most Han Chinese even now don't consider themselves as one ethnic group.
(3) The same reason why the desire for secession does not exist in other multiethnic countries: It simply isn't worth it unless you have concentration camps, massacres, and cultural genocide.
1) China has been united since Qin Shi Huang unified China in 221 BCE except from 220 to 589 CE, from 907 to 960 CE and from 1916 to 1928 CE.
3) Secessionism is widespread in multiethnic countries like Spain, Great Britain and Belgium, which don't use concentration camps, massacres and cultural genocide against ethnic minorities.
 
1) China has been united since Qin Shi Huang unified China in 221 BCE except from 220 to 589 CE, from 907 to 960 CE and from 1916 to 1928 CE.

I mean, I disagree with the notion that China has been more divided than united but then again, we have to include the caveat of "What China?" because if we define China as the territories held by the modern PRC, than there wasn't a unified Chinese state until the 18th-century. So inevitably it's a thorny question of where do China's borders end and when does "China" start?

3) Secessionism is widespread in multiethnic countries like Spain, Great Britain and Belgium, which don't use concentration camps, massacres and cultural genocide against ethnic minorities.

Can't really say to know enough Belgian history with say, Walloonia to comment there but even if you exclude the British Empire, Britain's historical policies towards Ireland have often been extremely painful for the Irish people and the modern-day division of Ireland is one of the legacies of that troubled history.

Secondly, as regards Spain... you do know that certain Spanish minorities, particularly Basques and Catalans, suffered greatly in the Franco Era, yes? This was a time when the Basque language was literally banned even in private homes. The Francoist campaign against the Basque language was so terrifyingly effective that some scholars have estimated that the entire Basque language would have gone extinct as a spoken language had Francoist language policies continued for a few more decades.

If attempting to literally (and near-successfully) destroy a separate language does not count as cultural genocide, I don't know what does.
 
3) Secessionism is widespread in multiethnic countries like Spain, Great Britain and Belgium, which don't use concentration camps, massacres and cultural genocide against ethnic minorities.

Widespread is perhaps overstating it. Also, yeah, they kinda did. The Irish, Scottish and Welsh languages had to be rebuilt basically from scratch, although the welsh were better off than most. The Victorians did their damn best to anglacise the constituent countries. Furthermore, I would like to bring up a million dead irish as a "massacare", although you may know it better as the Potato Famine.
 
Applying modern day concepts of ethnicity and nationalities on people on the Early Modern (particularly non-European) people is faulty to begin with, even in the 1850s where the Han-Manchu dispute was core of the Chinese society Han subgroups like the Yue and Min joined the Qing cause against the Hakka-lead Taipings (the Hakkas being another Han subgroups), there is no such thing as homogeneous and united Chinese people even if you count just the Han.

Curiously, a large part of the Taiping aversion to footbinding was the simple fact that the Hakka people had never actually practised footbinding even long after the practise became as widespread as it eventually did.

The Qing also attempted to eliminate footbinding early on in the establishment of the dynasty but ultimately this campaign failed, a dramatic contrast to the extremely successful imposition of the queue hairstyle.
 
I mean, I disagree with the notion that China has been more divided than united but then again, we have to include the caveat of "What China?" because if we define China as the territories held by the modern PRC, than there wasn't a unified Chinese state until the 18th-century. So inevitably it's a thorny question of where do China's borders end and when does "China" start?



Can't really say to know enough Belgian history with say, Walloonia to comment there but even if you exclude the British Empire, Britain's historical policies towards Ireland have often been extremely painful for the Irish people and the modern-day division of Ireland is one of the legacies of that troubled history.

Secondly, as regards Spain... you do know that certain Spanish minorities, particularly Basques and Catalans, suffered greatly in the Franco Era, yes? This was a time when the Basque language was literally banned even in private homes. The Francoist campaign against the Basque language was so terrifyingly effective that some scholars have estimated that the entire Basque language would have gone extinct as a spoken language had Francoist language policies continued for a few more decades.

If attempting to literally (and near-successfully) destroy a separate language does not count as cultural genocide, I don't know what does.
For the purposes of this discussion, I'm defining China as China proper (excluding Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and Manchuria).

I know about Franco's oppression of Basques and Catalans. I'm speaking about the current situation in Spain, because I assume, that Sumeragi was speaking about current situations. Concerning Great Britain, I was speaking about Scotland.
 
For the purposes of this discussion, I'm defining China as China proper (excluding Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and Manchuria).

"China proper" even by that definition still includes a large number of ethnic minorities, but a large number of historical Chinese states failed to attain that historical extent.

I know about Franco's oppression of Basques and Catalans. I'm speaking about the current situation in Spain, because I assume, that Sumeragi was speaking about current situations. Concerning Great Britain, I was speaking about Scotland.

You should have specified that then. You can't make a post, then get a response, and then decide "But that's not what I meant," if people misunderstand you, then that is on you.

This kind of "Oh I didn't mean that!" shifting of the goalposts is frankly getting annoying. It's not the job of other people in this thread to magically discern your meaning or context.

Most of your posts are extremely sparse in detail, with major points accounting for roughly 1-2 sentences. You repeatedly refuse to discuss particular issues or sources in detail, or provide reputable sources of your own to prove your point.

People who clearly have an understanding of Chinese history are engaging with you and in some places offering you information to help you improve your knowledge.

I highly suggest you change your approach rather than continue this present song and dance.

And as an aside, there are plenty of problems with the UK's historical treatment of Scotland, but the idea that the UK somehow ends with the island of Britain is a direct contradiction of the actual history and conception of the United Kingdom.
 
"China proper" even by that definition still includes a large number of ethnic minorities, but a large number of historical Chinese states failed to attain that historical extent.



You should have specified that then. You can't make a post, then get a response, and then decide "But that's not what I meant," if people misunderstand you, then that is on you.

This kind of "Oh I didn't mean that!" shifting of the goalposts is frankly getting annoying. It's not the job of other people in this thread to magically discern your meaning or context.

Most of your posts are extremely sparse in detail, with major points accounting for roughly 1-2 sentences. You repeatedly refuse to discuss particular issues or sources in detail, or provide reputable sources of your own to prove your point.

People who clearly have an understanding of Chinese history are engaging with you and in some places offering you information to help you improve your knowledge.

I highly suggest you change your approach rather than continue this present song and dance.

And as an aside, there are plenty of problems with the UK's historical treatment of Scotland, but the idea that the UK somehow ends with the island of Britain is a direct contradiction of the actual history and conception of the United Kingdom.
I'm not claiming, that UK ends with the island of Britain. I was just using Scotland as an example of a non-oppressed country with a strong secessionist movement. I consider Scotland a better example of a non-oppressed country with a strong secessionist movement than the Basque Country and Catalonia, because Scotland hasn't been oppressed in living memory unlike the Basque Country and Catalonia, and because Great Britain allows Scotland to secede, while Spain refuses to allow the Basque Country and Catalonia to secede.
 
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Curiously, a large part of the Taiping aversion to footbinding was the simple fact that the Hakka people had never actually practised footbinding even long after the practise became as widespread as it eventually did.

The Qing also attempted to eliminate footbinding early on in the establishment of the dynasty but ultimately this campaign failed, a dramatic contrast to the extremely successful imposition of the queue hairstyle.
Less "failed" and more "didn't bother to", both the queue order and the foot binding ban were supposed to impose a new lifestyle on the conquered people as a sign of their submission, but foot binding only affected women, on a lower social scale than the men forced to wear the queue, so when facing fierce resistance from both facets Dorgon choose to enforce only the queue order rather than both, less risk and the same reward.
 
Just bear in mind: the author of 1421: China Discovers America did not even attend university and dropped out of formal education at the age of 15. This isn't even a non-historian infringing upon history (which is fairly common for anthropologists and archaeologists to do, as an example) this is someone who did not even complete secondary school. There are certain fundamentals of a historian's education that this person is simply not going to have. Especially when dealing with an extremely controversial topic with sparse/nonexistent historical evidence.

Thanks you for explaining

/Cameron


Okay, going back to Chinese, I have seen accounts from 1800's Hawaii where *Hawaiian* was the language typically spoken by Chinese immigrants to other Chinese immigrants. Because they sure couldn't understand each other's native languages.

Mind you this is from a time when basically only Canton (Guangzhou) (and later a few other south Chinese cities) was an open port to western trade.

Even within the southern provinces of China, people were diverse enough in language that it was more practical to adopt an outside lingua fracta among those who emigrated.

This does not look to me like cultural unity, let along unified national identity.
 
Secondly, as regards Spain... you do know that certain Spanish minorities, particularly Basques and Catalans, suffered greatly in the Franco Era, yes? This was a time when the Basque language was literally banned even in private homes. The Francoist campaign against the Basque language was so terrifyingly effective that some scholars have estimated that the entire Basque language would have gone extinct as a spoken language had Francoist language policies continued for a few more decades.

If you want an example of country that tried the same and succeeded, just cross the Pyrenees. France may look like the model ethnonationalist wet dream but it's mostly on the back of extremely thorough education based destruction of local language. For a long time, speaking local dialects in school was ground for corporal punishment. Speaking your birth language was ground for a caning. In government schools. In a democracy.
 
If you want an example of country that tried the same and succeeded, just cross the Pyrenees. France may look like the model ethnonationalist wet dream but it's mostly on the back of extremely thorough education based destruction of local language. For a long time, speaking local dialects in school was ground for corporal punishment. Speaking your birth language was ground for a caning. In government schools. In a democracy.
This happened in Wales, too! We held on due to a number of factors which are really complicated, but mostly come down to the fact that they just didn't finish the job.
 
This happened in Wales, too! We held on due to a number of factors which are really complicated, but mostly come down to the fact that they just didn't finish the job.

France is interesting because it's so thorough you can't even see the traces of it today. Outside really specific areas like Brittany or Corsica with special reasons for weathering the onslaught.
 
I love how people jump to space battles versus fight when I say "match," when I was taking about sheer numbers and logistics. Treasure fleet wasn what, 1500 ships? No european country could afford to build anything like that amount of shipping back then.

And while the TF ships were kinda poor in maneuverability, they were relatively stable and safe and thus well suited to colonization efforts had the Ming had any actual inclination in that direction.
Yes ? If there was virgin land to be exploited, the Chinese could better support such operations. We have such proof such as Zheng shipyard at Palembang.(err, can't recall the exact island offhand and Google not helping )

BUT the Chinese couldn't have expanded and conquered such lands, because unlike the Spanish colonisation of South America, or the English and etc, SEA was full and not vulnerable to measles,smallpox and plague.
I'm not speaking about, whether China is a homogenous country or not. I'm comparing China to Europe, the Middle East and India.
India sure. But Europe had what ? 4 major linguistic groups and 6 ethnic? Ming China had 8 and 12.

To put it simply, China had Turks, Mongols and other nomads, Caucasians during the Tang Dynasty due to their expansion into the Greco Dacian kingdoms , ON top of Han Chinese and Aborigines, although Qing and Ming China conquest had also niche groups of the original Aborigines on top of Polynesian natives.

Concerning Europe, it is true, that Latin was the lingua franca of medieval Europe, but Latin was never the native language of all Europeans. The Germanic languages and the Slavic languages are very different from the Romance languages, which are the descendants of Latin. All Han Chinese speak dialects of Mandarin, and Mandarin have always been the lingua franca of China. China can be compared to the Arab world or the Romance-speaking countries, but not to the entire Middle East or to the entire Europe.
Mandarin was the lingua franca of the Qing dynasty, an invading culture, although the Ming used it as well.

There's a reason why the Great 300 Tang poems sounds so flat in Mandarin. The actual language tones is closer to Cantonese but it's not Cantonese.

It's also why the songs sound so weird in Mandarin and require nonsensical words such as xi invented.

The Tang poem also include gems such as how the author hears his home dialect and is delighted to meet a fellow villager, again, the Imperial examination was critiqued as being biased because the oral examination was biased against Southern candidates because of language issues. An Lushan racial background .

Hell. The reason why Han China is so prized, is partially because Imperial China after the 16 kingdoms had become so different and divided , that a mythical golden age was needed as a unifying symbol, aka HRE and Rome.

Five Barbarians - Wikipedia
 
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If the Chinese are as heterogenous as you claim, why have China been a unified empire for most of the time since Qin Shi Huang unified China in 221 BCE, why does the Han Chinese consider themselves a single ethnic group and why does no desire for secession exist in China except among the Tibetans, the Uyghurs and the Taiwanese?
The Roman Empire controlled more-or-less the entire Mediterranean world for a good 500 years or so, and even after it collapsed the idea of Rome had great cultural prestige and powerful rulers sometimes tried to claim its mantle. Does that mean the Roman Empire was homogeneous?

China was very good at creating an ideal of unity and a set of cultural institutions with widespread buy-in at least at the elite levels, but that doesn't necessarily imply homogeneity. The "Roman Empire" after 476 CE was not ethnically Roman, did not speak Latin, and did not worship Roman gods, but it considered itself the continuation of Rome and retained that self-conception for a thousand years.

I think the Chinese civilization-state projected trended toward trying to make China a homogeneous society, but that doesn't mean that effort was ever completely successful.
 
The Roman Empire controlled more-or-less the entire Mediterranean world for a good 500 years or so, and even after it collapsed the idea of Rome had great cultural prestige and powerful rulers sometimes tried to claim its mantle. Does that mean the Roman Empire was homogeneous?

China was very good at creating an ideal of unity and a set of cultural institutions with widespread buy-in at least at the elite levels, but that doesn't necessarily imply homogeneity. The "Roman Empire" after 476 CE was not ethnically Roman, did not speak Latin, and did not worship Roman gods, but it considered itself the continuation of Rome and retained that self-conception for a thousand years.

I think the Chinese civilization-state projected trended toward trying to make China a homogeneous society, but that doesn't mean that effort was ever completely successful.
Han dynasty had a colonisation policy that boiled down to seeding areas with Han ethnic peoples, eventually forming settlements which displaced locals but inter marriages,trade and porous borders, much less internal movements and settlement of wasteland created a mixed society . We see this in Changsha, Yunnan, Wu expeditionary colonisation of Annam(Vietnam) . Ditto to the military colonies set up against the Xiongniu .

We cant ascribe modern racial theory to the Han but the Han were arguably less inclusive than the Romans, with barbarians deemed separate. However, the fact that barbarians were large enough in numbers in their territories is proof that yeah, it's not homogenous either.
 
The Silk Road/Indian Ocean trade ran more-or-less entirely on luxury goods as far as I'm aware, so yeah, that analogy wasn't meant to be that literal. The point was that long-range overseas expansion was more rewarding for European states than Asian states, because Asia was the richest part of the world at the time.
You know, the role of spices and New World gold/silver is known for European expansion westwards, but I kinda wonder how important sugar was as well.

While the Muslims didn't monopolise sugar , their access of the Mediterranean and India meant they had the good lands and techniques required for sugar, along with the slave economy that sourced Africa and Southern Europe for labour.

After the popularisation of sugar post Crusades, Venice began monopolising the valuable sugar trade as well as setting up plantations in Sicily, which increased supply and demand.

So, while everyone followed Spain to the New World for silver, spices were not available outside the Orient. But sugar could be grown and fed to Europe markets, which led to the Portuguese and eventual Dutch experiments.

The British expansion westwards was driven by cash crops, and while Virginia tobacco was important, Sugar from Barbados ,and the Rum distilleries of America fed by Caribbean molasses was just as important and profitable.

In contrast , China appetite for sugar was met by imports from India as well as her own sugar farms , based in Guangdong during the Ming era. Unlike the west, the plantation economy never grew off, and this meant that the sheer economy of scale, as well as cash profits never emerged , even during later years when tea plantations became a staple of China economy.


It would be... Interesting to speculate what would happen if China grew an appetite for slaves to feed her sugar plantations and thus conquest became more important than trade .....
 
Yes ? If there was virgin land to be exploited, the Chinese could better support such operations. We have such proof such as Zheng shipyard at Palembang.(err, can't recall the exact island offhand and Google not helping )

BUT the Chinese couldn't have expanded and conquered such lands, because unlike the Spanish colonisation of South America, or the English and etc, SEA was full and not vulnerable to measles,smallpox and plague.

India sure. But Europe had what ? 4 major linguistic groups and 6 ethnic? Ming China had 8 and 12.

To put it simply, China had Turks, Mongols and other nomads, Caucasians during the Tang Dynasty due to their expansion into the Greco Dacian kingdoms , ON top of Han Chinese and Aborigines, although Qing and Ming China conquest had also niche groups of the original Aborigines on top of Polynesian natives.


Mandarin was the lingua franca of the Qing dynasty, an invading culture, although the Ming used it as well.

There's a reason why the Great 300 Tang poems sounds so flat in Mandarin. The actual language tones is closer to Cantonese but it's not Cantonese.

It's also why the songs sound so weird in Mandarin and require nonsensical words such as xi invented.

The Tang poem also include gems such as how the author hears his home dialect and is delighted to meet a fellow villager, again, the Imperial examination was critiqued as being biased because the oral examination was biased against Southern candidates because of language issues. An Lushan racial background .

Hell. The reason why Han China is so prized, is partially because Imperial China after the 16 kingdoms had become so different and divided , that a mythical golden age was needed as a unifying symbol, aka HRE and Rome.

Five Barbarians - Wikipedia
I'm only speaking about China proper, not about all lands ruled by China at some point of time. I know, that Tibetans, Uyghurs, Inner Mongols, Xinjiang Kazakhs and Xinjiang Kyrgyz are very different from Han Chinese, and that Manchus were very different from Han Chinese in the past.
 
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I'm only speaking about China proper, not about all lands ruled by China at some point of time. I know, that Tibetans, Uyghurs, Inner Mongols, Xinjiang Kazakhs and Xinjiang Kyrgyz are very different from Han Chinese, and that Manchus were very different from Han Chinese in the past.

Again, there was no concept of Han Chinese until the end of the 19th century. What we now consider "Han Chinese" was a myth made up by those who adopted Western nationalism as a modern ideology to fight against the Manchu government. There was no common language, no common culture, no common belief, the only thing that allowed communication being East Asian Characters.
 
I'm only speaking about China proper, not about all lands ruled by China at some point of time. I know, that Tibetans, Uyghurs, Inner Mongols, Xinjiang Kazakhs and Xinjiang Kyrgyz are very different from Han Chinese, and that Manchus were very different from Han Chinese in the past.
Errr......... The ughurs live in freaking hunan as well as XInjiang. Hunan - Wikipedia
Uyghurs - Wikipedia
Seriously.

Also, the turks I was referring to was actually An Lushan. You know, the guy who took over a dynasty?

We not even talking about the Khitans, who thanks to the Jin migrated into north and central china.......

So, you MIGHT want to consider not dismissing the heartland of China as being outside of CHina.
Again, there was no concept of Han Chinese until the end of the 19th century. What we now consider "Han Chinese" was a myth made up by those who adopted Western nationalism as a modern ideology to fight against the Manchu government. There was no common language, no common culture, no common belief, the only thing that allowed communication being East Asian Characters.
YEah no...... I'm not sure how you're defining this but the idea of Han Chinese can be traced back as far back as Ming dynasty and the Descendants of the Dragon being as far as back as the Han Dynasty..........
 
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