It really goes to show how out of control virtue signaling leftism is when people are jumping down your throat for...

*checks notes*

Defending Joseph Mengele.



Yes, I agree.
Who brought up anything in regards to their human rights abuses that nobody here would actually deny or try to justify? The whole discussion has been "Early War Nazi armor doctrine was better than people give them credit for." That's both pretty much objectively true (they roles France and a fair chunk of Europe to their East with it) and also not actually implying they weren't terrible like you seem to think it was.
 
There is no justification for defending Nazi Germany in any part or whole, period.
 
Chill
Also me: The only good Nazi is a dead one and fuck them all with a cactus may their memory be shat upon repeatedly and trampled until there is nothing left. They were and are monsters and should be reviled.
 
heroically defending the rights of people who wrongly vomit out wehraboo nonsense
Oh hey I love being indirectly accused of being a Wehraboo. After all the German military was a group of bumbling idiots who stumbled into defeating France.

I'm not saying that the Wehrmacht was somehow without flaws at the start of WWII. The Pz I, while still useful, definitely wasn't up to actual armor tasks anymore, and the obsession with stupidly heavy siege weapons had already started. But the French armor doctrine was not great (partially because a dedicated armor branch would have meant a professional core to the military), and their vehicle park was a mess (Chieftain, Development of French Armor Doctrine). They also as a whole expected to fighter another trench was (which influenced parts their tank design). The Wehrmacht expected the next war to be another maneuver war once they got over the "we're just going to copy what the others did" phase of post-war analysis (and pretty successfully rebranded this maneuver warfare as "Blitzkrieg") (Also Chieftain, Development of the Panzer Arm).

The BEF was equipped well, but it just wasn't as large as the big continental armies. Italy was Italy, and Polands army also was quite obviously not a first rate military at that point (39 divisions to 66 German divisions, and considerably less tanks, tankettes and aircraft). The Red Army had a doctrine that was suited to the war WWII ended up being (the Russian front after all never had become a trench war). But the last of Stalins purges had only ended a month before Barbarossa. If Barbarossa hadn't happened, the Red Army would have become the better of the two armies quite fast because they had more industry to build their solid next-generation tanks with. Barbarossa significantly delayed the vehicle replacement and meant that the previous generation of tanks, which were developed to a somewhat less coherent doctrine, had to hold out for a while longer. The BT series was not good on the defensive, the KVs were heavy breaching tanks, and there was some number of multi-turret monstrosities in there too. The T-34-76, despite having a cramped two-man turret, was already a good tank, there just weren't enough of them ready yet.

So, instead of making snide comments about how I'm a Wehraboo (because believe me, if we were to talk about the late war Wehrmacht, I would take a very different stance) or a general Nazi apologist, can someone make an actual argument for a European Army, 39-41, being an actually superior army that only lost because Germany got insanely lucky (or perhaps that they didn't fight in that timeframe, but they did fight against all the big armies of Europe in that timeframe).
But what's the problem with that? They're Just Asking Questions about the Nazis, after all. :V
Ah yes, because any time someone isn't circlejerking about how much Germany sucks is a troll and Holocaust denier.
There is no justification for defending Nazi Germany in any part or whole, period.
If I was talking about something even loosely approaching a moral issue, I would agree with you. But sadly, having something approaching morals is not a requirement for waging war. As it is, this is basically you swinging the "Nazis are evil" club to shut down an argument that is completely orthogonal to the Nazis being evil. Stating that noone can say that evil regimes actually performed well at something is an approach that is basically directly counter to actually studying history.
Also me: The only good Nazi is a dead one and fuck them all with a cactus may their memory be shat upon repeatedly and trampled until there is nothing left. They were and are monsters and should be reviled.
What a brave and controversial stance to take.
 
They were excellent mass murderers and poor at very nearly everything else they did to include military success.
 
Stop - This is not acceptable conduct

We're not arguing with you about any of that. Most of what you've said is perfectly reasonable on its own, and the only thing we're taking objection to is the efforts by certain parties to swing into the thread and wring their hands about how the importance of interrupting a "circlejerk" about how Nazis are bad, and the importance of "challenging established opinions" about how the Nazis are bad.
 
They were excellent mass murderers and poor at very nearly everything else they did to include military success.
I mean they had shit planning which caused them to pick fights they couldn't win (USSR, UK and USA), and then wildly flail about in an attempt to find something that helps. But that doesn't mean that their early successes never happened.
 
I mean they had shit planning which caused them to pick fights they couldn't win (USSR, UK and USA), and then wildly flail about in an attempt to find something that helps. But that doesn't mean that their early successes never happened.

There was a big portion of luck and picking on unprepared opponents in those too.
 
There was a big portion of luck and picking on unprepared opponents in those too.
For Russia, yeah they had near-perfect timing. But the invasion of France happened months after they declared war, any unpreparedness was on them. The Polish military was prepared for war with Germany, though not the Soviet and Slovak invasions.
 
If you weren't prepared then that's on you, and "they were just lucky" is a huge easy out since you're disregarding the very notion of something causally leading to such outcome by instead handing the credit to fate.

For Russia, yeah they had near-perfect timing. But the invasion of France happened months after they declared war, any unpreparedness was on them. The Polish military was prepared for war with Germany, though not the Soviet and Slovak invasions.

I'm not saying France was great. But that wasn't the point. Picking on weak opponents doesn't make Nazi Germany good, it just makes the opponents bad.
 
I've listened to recording of radio news broadcasts from the this time period, the poles were certainly putting up a stiffer resistance than was expected with a number of areas holding out longer than expected well until the soviets decided to roll into poland and steamroll the Baltic states besides with it even then being obvious that the soviets and germans had to have made some sort of deal even before formal news of some of the deals were made public.
 
From what I heard the Char B1 was a pretty good tank for it's time, just used poorly.
 
France had a larger army than Germany at war start

Combine Polish and British armies and it should've been a German stomp, Germany utilised concentric operations and combined arms warfare to great effect to win a doomed situation
 
From what I heard the Char B1 was a pretty good tank for it's time, just used poorly.
Eh, I'd almost say the opposite? Thing had poor visibility, a one-man turret, was relatively slow, had high fuel consumption... but it was tough and well-armed.
Tank-on-tank, it did well, but wars aren't necessarily won tank-on-tank.
 
Thing had poor visibility, a one-man turret, was relatively slow, had high fuel consumption...

Pretty much the issues that every other tank in Europe had. In the case of the one-man turret, that was never really a big issue in the first place, since tank-to-tank wasn't even that common anyway.
 
I'm not saying France was great. But that wasn't the point. Picking on weak opponents doesn't make Nazi Germany good, it just makes the opponents bad.
I mean you can call them weak opponents. But if all of these are weak opponents, who exactly is a strong opponents, who would be a strong opponent?

Literally only the US, and at the outbreak of the war, most of what would become icons of the US participation in WWII like Shermans or the Bofors gun or the Essex class were still in the future. The most modern tank the US had at the outbreak of the war was the M2 Light, and the M2 Medium entered service only in 41.
 
I mean you can call them weak opponents. But if all of these are weak opponents, who exactly is a strong opponents, who would be a strong opponent?

Literally only the US, and at the outbreak of the war, most of what would become icons of the US participation in WWII like Shermans or the Bofors gun or the Essex class were still in the future. The most modern tank the US had at the outbreak of the war was the M2 Light, and the M2 Medium entered service only in 41.

The USSR once it got its shit together? Even Britain gave a good fight. But yeah, the pickings being thin is part of my point. Most of Europe really really wasn't ready for war, which is why the self destructive machine of fascism managed to get so far before failing.
 
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