"Oversight" is "control", Aaron.

Well, no. Because here is the difference: A police officer or soldier can be disarmed when not on duty. A superhuman can not. Given that the UN placed their superhumans under house arrest it was clear that they weren't interested in controlling their mission, they were interested in controlling them. They wanted Winter Soldiers, people they could drag out to solve problems and stick on ice when not in use.

And yeah, using General Ross may have been dumb from a writing standpoint because of the history the character has...

But let's remember that he was the Secretary of State.

And Alexander Pierce was the Secretary of Defense , who was also appointed by the US President (who was democratically elected). The fact that one of the President's senior cabinet members was a mass-murdering Hydra loyalist and the other is a man who engages in unethical human experimentation says a hell of a lot about the President in these universe, don't you think?

Yes, Steve told the Secretary of State to shove it. The last time he told his ultimate superior to shove it, he ended up saving the lives of billions of people. And the SecDef is actually in Cap's direct chain of command at that, since the SecState is not actually in charge of the army directly. I also think Cap kind of retired from SHIELD and the US army in general when he engaged in treason against it and blew up their headquarters and three extremely expensive pieces of military technology.

There is no watchman in the world who could control a rogue superpowered individual -- except other superpowered individuals.

Yup. Which is why in a sane world we'd not even try to impose oversight on them. The moment the Nukes start thinking for themselves is the moment we normal humans cease to be the rulers of the planet. If the only thing that can hold the monopoly of force is superhumans than the superhumans are the government and civilian government exists only at their sufferance. Our best bet is to treat them as well as possible in the hopes of their natural empathy making them act in our best interests rather than attempting to control people who we can't control and just making them angry at us.

MCU isn't a world where all men are, in fact, created equal. It is a world of Great Men. The MCU is a world where Ayn Rand is right. If that scares you, it should.
 
Yup. Which is why in a sane world we'd not even try to impose oversight on them. The moment the Nukes start thinking for themselves is the moment we normal humans cease to be the rulers of the planet. If the only thing that can hold the monopoly of force is superhumans than the superhumans are the government and civilian government exists only at their sufferance. Our best bet is to treat them as well as possible in the hopes of their natural empathy making them act in our best interests rather than attempting to control people who we can't control and just making them angry at us.

The only ones who are remotely on that level are Hulk, Vision, and Thor. And I'd even question them base on their on screen feats. Everyone else is, at most, dangerous enough to wreck society. But they have no power to build anything in its place. The ability to destroy is not the ability to Govern Aaron. No matter what Dune might say.

Heck. Tony isnt even on that level. As much as we joke about him building his first Arc Reactor and suit in a cave with a box of scraps he actually built it from the guts of a hoard of salvaged Stark Tech.

At the beginning of civil war he announces the 611 million dollars he spent on his memory simulator. All of that to source equipment and components and technology that he would die of old age before completing on his own.
 
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Can you imagine MCU events so far with something like Accords in place ?

Avengers : The authority figures bright plan to nuke New York goes ahead.

Avengers 2 : While UN debates Avengers creating Ultron, Ultron is busy lifting Sokovia into low orbit and dropping it to recreate K-T extinction event Humanity goes way of dinosaurs.

Civil War : Hydra takes over the world,millions of people are killed in their bloody purge.

Ant-man : Hydra gets their hand on Pym-tech.

Incredible Hulk : The US military gets away with kidnapping and forced human experimentation, on US citizens no less. They create a monster that ravage Harlem district of NYC. Instead of being a career ender and hauled before courts the general responsible gets promoted to one of top men in government. Oh wait... that one actually happened !

Ironman 1 : Ever seen the movie Lord of War, where the arms dealer wins, the Interpol agent who wanted to end him loses,. with the moral that in real world wannabe heros lose and the bad guy gets what they want ? Stark dies when he refuses Stane's demand to continue sales weapons and provide him with ARC reactor/power armor tech. Lethal Starktech weapons continue to kill poor people in wartorn countries. Now to his catalogue Stane adds Ironman tech weapons which he sells to any unscropulous groups or buyers. Stane becomes one of most successful merchants of death in world.

Ironman 2 : Stark is not allowed to walk around what amounts to a WMD in a briefcase (the portable version of Ironman armor). Whiplash successfully assassinates him. Hammer successfully sells the US military booby trapped power armor fitted with trojan horse backdoors in their software.

Ironman 3 : Stark dies... again. Seriously can one not see why a person like Tony legitimately needs his own weaponized battlesuit. Oh the vice-president is Hydra and Iron Patriot armor has been compromised and now no one can stop it.
 
Ant-man : Hydra gets their hand on Pym-tech.

I'm just gonna argue this one because Pym was a rogue actor anyway, you can't oversee something you don't know exists, and presumably everyone thought he was retired anyway. So the Accords being in place probably would not have altered the events of this movie in any meaningful way (except more legal hurdles for Mr. 'Imma make an Iron Man suit that can shrink. With lasers.')
 
I'm just gonna argue this one because Pym was a rogue actor anyway, you can't oversee something you don't know exists, and presumably everyone thought he was retired anyway. So the Accords being in place probably would not have altered the events of this movie in any meaningful way (except more legal hurdles for Mr. 'Imma make an Iron Man suit that can shrink. With lasers.')

Well I am postulating imagine if Pym decided to obey the accords, and file a motion with the UN or something regarding the shrinking tech IP he developed at his former company. Try to get it out of Darren's hand legally instead of going in like a vigilante and steal it from a vault. Given state of MCU verse corruption dont think Pym will succeed with the legal method.
 
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Well I am postulating imagine if Pym decided to obey the accords, and file a motion with the UN or something regarding the shrinking tech IP he developed at his former company. Try to get it out of Darren's hand legally instead of going in like a vigilante and steal it from a vault. Given state of MCU verse corruption dont think Pym will succeed with the legal method.

Judging from Pym's character he'd probably try to do both, then when it was obvious the legal stuff was going to fail he'd go with the other plan. Then if anyone asks about it he just shrugs and says 'Pity about what happened to Darren, isn't it? That's what happens when you let ambition get in the way of proper safety protocols. :V'
 
Well I am postulating imagine if Pym decided to obey the accords, and file a motion with the UN or something regarding the shrinking tech IP he developed at his former company. Try to get it out of Darren's hand legally instead of going in like a vigilante and steal it from a vault. Given state of MCU verse corruption dont think Pym will succeed with the legal method.

Honestly a lot of those sound incredibly forced.

And part of that is that we the viewers dont actually know what the accords say. Just that they demand accountability and are divisive.

I mean, look at it this way. The list of characters that support and oppose the Accords is fairly diverse on both sides. Sure Tony is a train wreck and driven by guilt, but what about Rodes and Vision?

I'm not saying that their endorsement makes it right. But if the Accords were really so obviously ineffectual I would have doubts about the team being so split.
 
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Honestly a lot of those sound incredibly forced.

And part of that is that we the viewers dont actually know what the accords say. Just that they demand accountability and are divisive.

I mean, look at it this way. The list of characters that support and oppose the Accords is fairly diverse on both sides. Sure Tony is a train wreck and driven by guilt, but what about Rodes and Vision?

I'm not saying that their endorsement makes it right. But if the Accords were really so obviously ineffectual I would have doubts about the team being so split.

Don't they pretty much all give their own reasons in the movie, though? Some are more neutral, though - Spider Man (job interview/hired gun), Black Panther (personal revenge), Wanda (personal freedom), Falcon (friendship?), Winter Soldier (personal freedom/clearing his name/stopping the WS program) they all have reasons they state.

Tony doesn't trust his own judgement any more. Rhodes and Black Widow want to keep the peace/be able to remain at least partially in control of their own actions ("if we don't willingly agree and keep one hand on the wheel, they'll force us to and take both hands"), Vision (if I remember rightly?) feels that international cooperation is the more logical solution in the face of the statistical increase of world-ending/superpowered threats.

Steve has developed major problems/paranoia regarding government/political oversight from his own experiences and ideals and wants to protect Bucky.

Hawkeye and Ant-Man are the only 'wait what' ones to me, but I think Hawkeye is another case of 'friendship/loyalty to Cap'...? I don't really remember the reasons given for them, though.

... Huh.

Looking at it that way, if anything as a whole they seem more pro-accords than against. Steve's team are mostly motivated by personal desires/friendship/loyalty than anything else.
 
Well, no. Because here is the difference: A police officer or soldier can be disarmed when not on duty. A superhuman can not. Given that the UN placed their superhumans under house arrest it was clear that they weren't interested in controlling their mission, they were interested in controlling them. They wanted Winter Soldiers, people they could drag out to solve problems and stick on ice when not in use.
Phew. Okay, this is gonna an annoying argument, I can tell.

It is pretty clear from the movies that leaving the Avengers unsupervised is a bad, bad idea. The last time that was done, Iron Man created Ultron, which would be a sensible enough reason to put him under supervision.

Besides, there are a helluva other sensible reason why the Avengers would be under house arrest or would have their movements limited by law instead of the UN wanting them to "become Winter Soldiers":
  • Natasha Romanov is a person of interest in I-don't-even-know-how-many assassinations and extralegal activities that don't have statutes of limitations, and considering the suspicions levelled at her in Winter Soldier, she would probably be considered a dangerous flight risk or a vital eyewitness to the HYDRA trials by any sensible judge, past service to the global community be damned, and thus be ordered to be confined and observed.
  • Vision can shoot laser beams, and he's a newly born 'human' being struggling to learn social customs and measuring his strength -- him being supervised makes perfect sense.
  • Rhodes and Wilson are active-duty and reserve military members who can in all likelihood be legally ordered to remain in a specific place to be called up.
  • Scarlet Witch is a mix of Natasha's problems (she's a person of interest in criminal activity by being a HYDRA "volunteer" and possibly aiding and abetting genocide) and Vision (she has powers that she hasn't yet evidenced to be able to handle maturely and safely for society).
  • Do I seriously need to explain Iron Man being left unsupervised being a bad idea?
  • And Captain America has previously demonstrated demonstrated a willingness to resist and evade a legitimate arrest warrant -- even though it was one handed out on false pretenses.
Every single Avenger has an entirely sensible and valid reason to be under house arrest, and all of them have potentially violated international humanitarian law in Sokovia, meaning their victims could demand their actions being scrutinised in a court of law -- which means they could be put under house arrest pending trial or because they don't want the Avengers causing similar levels of collateral damage when it might not be justified.

Just to make something clear: I'm not looking at this from the perspective of the viewer with all our intimate knowledge of the characters involved, Aaron. I'm looking at this like a normal reasonable bystander would, someone who doesn't know these people intimately. There are many sensible reasons why people would put any single one of the Avengers under house arrest, limit their movements, and have them observed and controlled that also apply to any other ordinary human being. That's what "oversight" means.

And if the world was genuinely in danger of being destroyed... Well, the Avengers could ask to be released to deal with it, or break themselves out and deal with it and be presumably vindicated later as they were in Sokovia. I actually assume that the Sokovia Accords are meant to create exactly that possibility, especially because Iron Man is shown to be allowed to go after Bucky and later after Cap to bring them in, but only under the supervision of Ross (and thus by implication the executive branch of the US).

And even if they were detained or put under house arrest and only released to deal with world-threatening crises... I'll be honest, and no matter how harsh it sounds, that doesn't bother me all that much. With great power comes great resposibility, and with great power and responsibility comes great oversight. That applies to all of us normal human beings, and I certainly think it should also apply to superhumans.

This is why the X-Men movies trying to put powerful mutants as stand-ins for disenfranchised and disadvantaged minorities don't work, incidentally.

This is also where my big beef with superhero concepts in general comes from: individuals are given hilariously wide latitude to make decisions that impact the lives of possibly millions to billions of people without the civilian populace trying to bring them to heel like any sensible government IRL would, and if the government tries to do that, it's explicitly or implicitly portrayed as a bunch of incompetent or outright malicious power-hungry oligarchs and intellectual dullards instead of intelligent converned citizens that wish to avoid creating further harm to the world. And generally, the superhero are shown to be "justified" or "right" later for some bizarre, convoluted reason and any attempts at oversight are doomed to fail because of greed and short-sightedness. It just smacks of anti-establishment 'Might Makes Right' Übermensch bullshit.

Civil War at least goes to the effort of showing that Cap isn't right and justified when he tries to evade any and all oversight, and he even acknowledges it himself. It balances it out by trying to show that oversight can be corrupt, inefficient, and ironically lack in oversight as well with Iron Man and Ross being hypocrites about the entire thing, but it still doesn't show the government as a possibly reasonably concerned citizen and thus perpetuates the anti-establishment stereotypes I mentioned above.

And that sucks balls.
Yup. Which is why in a sane world we'd not even try to impose oversight on them. The moment the Nukes start thinking for themselves is the moment we normal humans cease to be the rulers of the planet. If the only thing that can hold the monopoly of force is superhumans than the superhumans are the government and civilian government exists only at their sufferance. Our best bet is to treat them as well as possible in the hopes of their natural empathy making them act in our best interests rather than attempting to control people who we can't control and just making them angry at us.

MCU isn't a world where all men are, in fact, created equal. It is a world of Great Men. The MCU is a world where Ayn Rand is right. If that scares you, it should.
Well, considering the above, we at least seem to agree that the superhero genre seems to have some pretty fundamental ethical problems.

I just absolutely refuse to let the hypothetical solution to this scenario be "let's allow the superhumans to create an oligarchy and refuse to enforce reasonable oversight, thus letting our democratic institutions exist at the sufferance of superpowered folks who are potentially quite, quite unstable". That's really no better than unfettered feudalism, and even historical feudalism had checks and balances and thus "oversight" in a very basic, limited way.

Besides, the movie shows how a single individual can make the Avengers dance like a marionette on its strings with the right information and the right incentives, and he uses it to drive them apart and shatter the public trust in the Avengers. I am somehow unconvinced that the same couldn't be done in reverse; that there would never be well-intentioned, concerned, and intelligent individuals who are willing and able to create systems that would balance out the various dangers and concers both superhumans and normals have, and that these systems will always be unacceptable and always doomed to fail.

But I guess nobody wants to read or watch the adventures of Richard "Dick" Lively, totally muggle Head Commissioner of the United Nations Multilateral Superhuman Control Treaty Drafting Committee. No matter how actually interesting and relevant it would be. :-/
 
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P
But I guess nobody wants to read or watch the adventures of Richard "Dick" Lively, totally muggle Head Commissioner of the United Nations Multilateral Superhuman Control Treaty Drafting Committee. No matter how actually interesting and relevant it would be. :-/
They say you should always write the type of stories that you personally want to read!

:grin:
 
They say you should always write the type of stories that you personally want to read!

:grin:
Ain't got no time!

But that is a very interesting story concept, though... And so ripe for shenanigans. :p

"To discuss our recent draft of the Treaty, we'll be inviting Mr... Um, "Vision"? Does he have a name besides that?"
"I'm not sure he actually has a birth cirtificate, Dick."
"Well, okay, that's cool. We can work with that. I think. Anyone got a recent adress?"
"Just send it to Stark Tower; someone will take it to him. Her. It? It. I'm not sure. He looks like a dude, but we shouldn't make assumptions. He's a robot, after all. God, I can't believe I have to worry about offending a robot."
"Think fast, we all have to. So what if he - it - says no?"
"We could send a summons, right?"
"Not quite sure... I mean, we're not even sure if it's a citizen of the US, or even a human being. Quasi-human, perhaps? What court would we go to to get a summons? ...What if it's an undocumented alien? Would he get deported?"
"Probably falls under DACA. B'sides, where would he be deported to?"
"I have no idea."
"In any case, if anybody fits the 'undocumented alien' bill, I think it's Thor. Think we should bring it up when he comes by?"
"Right, Tamir? You're gonna sit all the way in the back when we invite Thor with his hammer that shoots lightning bolts, and you're gonna take notes and pleaseshutthehellup."
 
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Just to make something clear: I'm not looking at this from the perspective of the viewer with all our intimate knowledge of the characters involved, Aaron. I'm looking at this like a normal reasonable bystander would, someone who doesn't know these people intimately. There are many sensible reasons why people would put any single one of the Avengers under house arrest, limit their movements, and have them observed and controlled that also apply to any other ordinary human being. That's what "oversight" means.

But they're not ordinary human beings. If you start your logic with that, you're logic is going to go wrong.

And if the world was genuinely in danger of being destroyed... Well, the Avengers could ask to be released to deal with it, or break themselves out and deal with it and be presumably vindicated later as they were in Sokovia.

"Hey, we know we stuck you all in prison and treat you like shit all the time but we're kind of in a bind so could please explicitly disobey the orders we just gave you and save our asses?"

Remember I'm also acting from the perspective of a human who doesn't know them and I have no reason to believe Cap would save the world after we, you know, threw him in prison and treated him like shit.


I just absolutely refuse to let the hypothetical solution to this scenario be "let's allow the superhumans to create an oligarchy and refuse to enforce reasonable oversight, thus letting our democratic institutions exist at the sufferance of superpowered folks who are potentially quite, quite unstable". That's really no better than unfettered feudalism, and even historical feudalism had checks and balances and thus "oversight" in a very basic, limited way.

"Allow"? What makes you think you have a choice in this scenario?
 
But they're not ordinary human beings. If you start your logic with that, you're logic is going to go wrong.
From the perspective of a reasonable bystander in this universe that don't know the people in question, which I assume will be relatively comparable to that of normal folks today.

And, like, since when extraordinary physical skill or destructive capability mean that the laws no longer applied to someone? You think that Iron Man and his company can't get their ass(ets) sued off for violating corporate law? Or that Romanov is somehow immune to prosecution just because she happens to be an Avenger?

Pshaw. Like, even in the MCU, both of these characters get dragged in front of congressional hearings, and testimony there can be explicitly used to incriminate and incarcerate you. Later, the UN passes a treaty to limit their movements and there are enough superhumans willing to enforce it that it severely limits the agency of the superhuman unwilling to follow it.

They are explicitly and absolutely subject to the laws of normal humans.
"Hey, we know we stuck you all in prison and treat you like shit all the time but we're kind of in a bind so could please explicitly disobey the orders we just gave you and save our asses?"

Remember I'm also acting from the perspective of a human who doesn't know them and I have no reason to believe Cap would save the world after we, you know, threw him in prison and treated him like shit.
Yeah?

I'm basing this on the assumption of house arrest in the Stark Tower before the rebels actually flat-out committed crimes. Deciding that they are necessary to secure world peace, but that otherwise being unsupervised can cause a helluva lot of damage, and then deciding to limit their movements to a well-supplied and comfortable living space seems...

Like a reasonably solid compromise when looking at their destructive capabilities and the chaos superpowered individuals can cause, if you ask me.

It doesn't fall under "treating people like shit" as far as I'm concerned. It's like not allowing people to carry guns in schools, or quarantining dangerous, unstable individuals. We do that as well and consider it lawful and justified, so why not for superhumans? *shrugs*
"Allow"? What makes you think you have a choice in this scenario?
People can choose to die free. Sounds harsh and dumb, but nonetheless true.

The choice of the superhumans in this regard is to either accept that human authority and the oversight that comes with it, or be willing to kill enough human beings until humanity stops trying to enact its oversight.

In that scenario, I somehow have a dim feeling that "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" will blink first if it comes to that.

And if they don't, at least they will have lost that squeaky-clean moral authority of theirs and I don't have to respect them as "heroes" anymore. Win! :V

In any case, I consider it absolutely contemptible to even consider taking away the right of a populace to choose to control who defends them, and to resist good-faith attempts of creating oversight. Supernatural feudalism with no unaccountability and the benign acceptance of it in stories and fandom can go die in a fire.

That's why I have trouble with Cap's position on the Sokovia Accords despite my admiration, respect, and understanding for the character and his motivations, and I doubt future arguments will sway me much on the matter.
 
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You know, considering Wanda basically became Clint's daughteru for this movie, it kind of feels like he ought to have been on Hulk-duties in Age of Ultron. Dude's a father (with nerves of steel) who's used to calming down tantruming kids and giving pep talks. It would have been neat foreshadowing for the whole "Hawkeye has a family and is a normal person" reveal, too. Imagine if he calms down Hulk in the forest and the team are like "man, I don't know how you're so good at calming down raging monsters" and he responds "lots of practice", and camera cuts make the audience think it's a joke at Natasha's expense or something.

Instead that duty was handed to Natasha, because... well, mainly because of the somewhat hamfisted romance, really. I guess they needed to give her something to do other than getting captured for the sake of Ultron-exposition, given Tony inexplicably took over her usual role by working out who Ultron's first target was through espionage exposition dumps. You could even keep that romance, if you wanted – use the fact that Clint can calm down Natasha's love interest and she can't to emphasize the fact that she really would like to have a life like his. So her character arc is either accepting that a normal life just won't work for her and moving on, or developing mama skills while they're hiding out with Clint's family and she's bonding with Banner, climaxing in a big calming-down scene at the end.

I'd prefer it to be a "normal goddamn human being" focus rather than a mother/lover focus, honestly, but I'm working with what I'm given.
 
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From the perspective of a reasonable bystander in this universe that don't know the people in question, which I assume will be relatively comparable to that of normal folks today.

So you're saying that my perspective is unreasonable? I'm not coming at this from the perspective of personally knowing Cap and co. I'm coming at this from the perspective of "Let us appease the walking WMDs because attempting to not appease them has led to horrible scenarios every other time."

This is why Dr Erskine was so adamant on finding someone with the right sense of moral judgement to make into his superhuman. He knew he was creating a god among men and his goal was to create a benevolent one, not a weapon. If he wanted weapons, he would have gone the Winter Soldier route.


And, like, since when extraordinary physical skill or destructive capability mean that the laws no longer applied to someone? You think that Iron Man and his company can't get their ass(ets) sued off for violating corporate law? Or that Romanov is somehow immune to prosecution just because she happens to be an Avenger?

Pshaw. Like, even in the MCU, both of these characters get dragged in front of congressional hearings, and testimony there can be explicitly used to incriminate and incarcerate you. Later, the UN passes a treaty to limit their movements and there are enough superhumans willing to enforce it that it severely limits the agency of the superhuman unwilling to follow it.

They are explicitly and absolutely subject to the laws of normal humans.

Yeah?

No, actually. Black Widow showed up for congressional hearings because she wanted to. We know exactly what would happen if the supers decide to do a fade. They fade. That's what Nick Fury did. The Law only applies to the superhumans if they decide that the law applies to them. Unlike you or me, who have to bow to the monopoly of force, they are the monopoly of force.

The only reason she submitted to the laws of humans is because Captain America convinced her to. If she had wanted to, she could have vanished into the crowd and never been seen again. She explicitly says as much at the end of Winter Soldier.


I'm basing this on the assumption of house arrest in the Stark Tower before the rebels actually flat-out committed crimes.

Yup. Let's arrest people who have committed no crimes! That's the way to win their loyalty and support.


Deciding that they are necessary to secure world peace, but that otherwise being unsupervised can cause a helluva lot of damage, and then deciding to limit their movements to a well-supplied and comfortable living space seems...

Like a reasonably solid compromise when looking at their destructive capabilities and the chaos superpowered individuals can cause, if you ask me.

And if they decide they don't want to be contained?


It doesn't fall under "treating people like shit" as far as I'm concerned. It's like not allowing people to carry guns in schools, or quarantining dangerous, unstable individuals. We do that as well and consider it lawful and justified, so why not for superhumans? *shrugs*

Because I can ask a person to leave a gun at the door. I can't ask a person to leave their superpowers at the door.




People can choose to die free. Sounds harsh and dumb, but nonetheless true.

The choice of the superhumans in this regard is to either accept that human authority and the oversight that comes with it, or be willing to kill enough human beings until humanity stops trying to enact its oversight.

In that scenario, I somehow have a dim feeling that "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" will blink first if it comes to that.

And if they don't, at least they will have lost that squeaky-clean moral authority of theirs and I don't have to respect them as "heroes" anymore. Win! :V

But recall, we're basing this only on the view of people in universe. They have no clue that the Avengers will be the first to blink.

Like, let's take a real world example: oppressed peoples in any country you care to name. You oppress someone and these people are not going to have healthy lives and mentalities. No matter how "comfortable" you wish to make it. We can either work either with or against the superhumans. Our best bet is to work with, because the other option is to push them enough that eventually Captain America is not going to be able to stop the 'bad guys'.
 
Don't they pretty much all give their own reasons in the movie, though? Some are more neutral, though - Spider Man (job interview/hired gun), Black Panther (personal revenge), Wanda (personal freedom), Falcon (friendship?), Winter Soldier (personal freedom/clearing his name/stopping the WS program) they all have reasons they state.

They do state their reasons. My point is this. All of the Avengers had an opportunity to read the accords. Presumably the discussion takes place after reading them top to bottom.

Tony is a walking bag of bad decisions but we don't have any reason to assume Rodes, Vision, and Natasha (she supports the accords in general, it's the extreme circumstances which cause her to switch sides) aren't thinking the whole thing through.

If the Accords were so obviously flawed, and they may actually be flawed but non obviously, that it is clear they will stop the Avengers from acting against a world ending threat I think that would defeat the point of the division they create.

And really, the movie doesn't actually explore any flaws with the idea of making the heroes accountable to international community.

Case in point, if Steve had just brought Bucky back in after his escape there would be no reason to doubt Cap's claims that the UN Psychiatrist was a fake. It would have been quickly determined that the real interrogator had been murdered and replaced. At which point there wouldn't have been any need to pussy foot around wasting time collecting all of their allies for a big throw down at the airport.

Cap could have taken Iron Man, the Vison, and Warmachine with him to Siberia and pretty much stomped in the faces of Zemo's hypothetical super soldiers. And I'm pretty sure if Russia said no, the rest of the world community would tell them to fuck the hell off.
 
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They do state their reasons. My point is this. All of the Avengers had an opportunity to read the accords. Presumably the discussion takes place after reading them top to bottom.

Tony is a walking bag of bad decisions but we don't have any reason to assume Rodes, Vision, and Natasha (she supports the accords in general, it's the extreme circumstances which cause her to switch sides) aren't thinking the whole thing through.

If the Accords were so obviously flawed, and they may actually be flawed but non obviously, that it is clear they will stop the Avengers from acting against a world ending threat I think that would defeat the point of the division they create.

And really, the movie doesn't actually explore any flaws with the idea of making the heroes accountable to international community.

Case in point, if Steve had just brought Bucky back in after his escape there would be no reason to doubt Cap's claims that the UN Psychiatrist was a fake. It would have been quickly determined that the real interrogator had been murdered and replaced. At which point there wouldn't have been any need to pussy foot around wasting time collecting all of their allies for a big throw down at the airport.

Cap could have taken Iron Man, the Vison, and Warmachine with him to Siberia and pretty much stomped in the faces of Zemo's hypothetical super soldiers. And I'm pretty sure if Russia said no, the rest of the world community would tell them to fuck the hell off.
Dude. A legal document that thick would take a law firm monthes to fully parse. They had an afternoon
 
Dude. A legal document that thick would take a law firm monthes to fully parse. They had an afternoon



A lawyer would actually be expected to get through that in a single day. Assuming standard legal paper it didn't look to be more than a hundred pages. I've gone through that much in a day and I'm not a lawyer. And one of these dudes is the Vision, who probably could read the whole thing in a very brief amount of time.
 
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A lawyer would actually be expected to get through that in a single day. You drastically underestimate the amount of material lawyers have to process. And one of these dudes is the Vision.
It would be really funny if some asked "what the hell do these things say anyway?" and Vision waved his hand over them and summarized them in two sentences.

But that would entail the dudes to have actual positions more nuanced than "gubmint good!" and "gubmint bad!"
 
And you can back this up?
I'm basing this off a conversation in one of the SB Civil War threads. Someone mentioned that Matt Murdock should have been hired to go through the document and a bunch of people jumped in and said that realistically a two person operation could never do this in a reasonable amount of time, and saying that no legal firm could go through it in the time the Avengers had before the signing
 
I'm basing this off a conversation in one of the SB Civil War threads. Someone mentioned that Matt Murdock should have been hired to go through the document and a bunch of people jumped in and said that realistically a two person operation could never do this in a reasonable amount of time, and saying that no legal firm could go through it in the time the Avengers had before the signing

I'm fairly sure that would be for going over it with a fine tooth legal comb. Not to achieve the degree of comprehension that the Avengers would be able to attain without a law degree. Which is a fair criticism of its own.

The other issue is that Murdock is a US attorney. He is not necessarily experienced in international law. Which would significantly slow him down while he gets up to speed.

And this also begs the question. The Sokovian accords were known back during the events of Ant-Man. And nobody in the Avengers knew that they were being drafted? Nobody thought to stay in the loop?

It kind of makes the outrage fall flat for both the for and against sides if nobody has actually read the damn thing.
 
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I'm fairly sure that would be for going over it with a fine tooth legal comb. Not to achieve the degree of comprehension that the Avengers would be able to attain without a law degree. Which is a fair criticism of its own.

The other issue is that Murdock is a US attorney. He is not necessarily experienced in international law. Which would significantly slow him down while he gets up to speed.

And this also begs the question. The Sokovian accords were known back during the events of Ant-Man. And nobody in the Avengers knew that they were being drafted? Nobody thought to stay in the loop?

It kind of makes the outrage fall flat for both the for and against sides if nobody has actually read the damn thing.
I got the vibe that the details of the accords were deliberately withheld from the Avengers before that moment
 
The smart thing to do if they wanted to be sure what was actually in the accords would have been to simply ask "can I have a dozen lawyers go through this for me first".

Then again - why should the Avengers have any input on what's actually in the Accords? Are they sovereign nations now? More importantly, do they represent the interest of the citizens of any one nation? Have they been elected, or at least governing?
No, they haven't been.
Which is why the accords were, quite correctly "take it or leave it" towards the Avengers. You either operate within their bounds, with their oversight - or you don't operate at all. There was no coercion of getting arrested or punished for not following the accords - unless they took actions that the accords deemed illegal. Actions, it's worth pointing out, that in almost any country are illegal anyway. Vigilante justice is a crime, and for very good reasons. And remember that we aren't just talking about self defense or imminent danger situations here - the Avengers were explicitly going into other countries to hunt down villains and their bases of operation. That's rather obviously a criminal act unless it's authorized by the local government.
 
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