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But the existence of the "you" that you believe in is so tenuous - Shin Megami Tensei/Persona General

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Nyxistence said:
Hands-off is rather the point, actually. Being able to make a decision for yourself is important and core to what SMT is talking about, I'm absolutely with you there. But at the risk of sounding like a bad Philosophy professor, why leave it back up to humans? Law and Chaos are worse options for humans, but if we're doomed to go on repeat, then any suggestion of agency and self-determinism is farcical. Humanity therefore has no agency because it traps itself in its' own cycle. That's the first conclusion that the forces of Law and Chaos come to before proceeding to their respective solutions to that. Neutral is a rejection of that mechanically and thematically, and I don't think the message is 'we'd rather do this again if it means not getting YHVH or Lucifer in our shit' but 'we can collectively move beyond this'.

Regardless of how it turns out game after game, it's a persistent hope that drags along the Neutral end. That humans are worth saving and that you're doing something rather than actively working toward nothing.

And I wouldn't really take that quote at face value. Because, uh, the White aren't exactly people you're supposed to agree with.
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That's not the White. That's Masakado, who is pretty much humanity's biggest champion.

But no, Neutral's theme is that what matters is that it's humanity's choice, humanity's decision when and how they end. That they're not going to give up their agency to a higher power because they promise a solution to the cycle. If they die, it's on their own terms. If they succeed, it'll be with their own two arms. That's what Neutral sees as worth fighting for! To reject the meddling of outsiders. It's why the protagonist cedes their power in the end.
 
It's worth noting that the Neutral path is mechanically and thematically different from the Whites' "Let humans die on their own terms, nothing means anything" path.
 
AuraTwilight said:
It's worth noting that the Neutral path is mechanically and thematically different from the Whites' "Let humans die on their own terms, nothing means anything" path.
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That's not the White at all though? The White want to actively end Humanity rather than letting humanity continue its cycle. That's pretty much the exact opposite.
 
Apologies for going off on a tangent (I am enjoying everyone's discussion), but does anyone else know what skills have been nerfed in Final? I've heard Anticthon's Debilitate function is now Smirk only. Did they nerf Kannuki Throw too?
 
Mutton said:
That's not the White. That's Masakado, who is pretty much humanity's biggest champion.

But no, Neutral's theme is that what matters is that it's humanity's choice, humanity's decision when and how they end. That they're not going to give up their agency to a higher power because they promise a solution to the cycle. If they die, it's on their own terms. If they succeed, it'll be with their own two arms. That's what Neutral sees as worth fighting for! To reject the meddling of outsiders. It's why the protagonist cedes their power in the end.
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But that's still idealism. That's still holding up the idea that humans are worth something that higher powers can't seem to identify or have already made up their minds on. Humanity is worth saving and worth doing so on its' own terms. SMT never says they're outright correct about it, but to bring this back to what prompted this, the concept that an SMT game can end on a note that isn't purely dark or suggesting of impending darkness isn't what SMT is about, really. It's about humans twisting in the winds of two opposite forces wrestling for dominance and deciding their place in or outside that order. Making their stand without the guidance of either.

I just can't see an especially pessimistic angle over humanity's place in it. SMT leaves the book open in that regard. Though at this point I think we're just gnawing on the other's tail.
 
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Nyxistence said:
But that's still idealism. That's still holding up the idea that humans are worth something that higher powers can't seem to identify or have already made up their minds on. Humanity is worth saving and worth doing so on its' own terms. SMT never says they're outright correct about it, but to bring this back to what prompted this, the concept that an SMT game can end on a note that isn't purely dark or suggesting of impending darkness isn't what SMT is about, really. It's about humans twisting in the winds of two opposite forces wrestling for dominance and deciding their place in or outside that order.

I just can't see an especially pessimistic angle over humanity's place in it. SMT leaves the book open in that regard.
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I don't think it's necessarily pessimistic; my original description was "kicking the can down the curb." Neutral doesn't actually solve the problems that brought you to this point. It just moves the clock back with absolutely no guarantee that things will be better next time around. Neutral tends to be well, neutral on the optimism/pessimism spectrum. 1 is pessimistic, 3 is purely neutral, 4 is pessimistic, SJ is a bit optimistic, and 2 is mixed.
 
SMTIV Final DLC stuff

The first name. Zahiro. The Hero

The second name, to the left of the smirked one. Aleph.

Can't read the third one but I'm guessing based on the previous two and the one after that one...
And the rest of the pictures


and hey, Mephisto and Cleopatra.




that damage number. Highest I remember reaching in an SMT game is only around 18k in SMTIV
 
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Meh said:
SMTIV Final DLC stuff
The first name. Zahiro. The Hero

The second name, to the left of the smirked one. Aleph.

Can't read the third one but I'm guessing based on the previous two and the one after that one...
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As I said in SB, I'm disappointed it's only
the numbered mainline guys that are fightable. Would have been nice to have Tamaki and Spess Mehreen with them.
 
Does anyone know if there are any "old save" bonuses from SMT IV to SMT IV FINAL?
 
E1ChristO said:
Does anyone know if there are any "old save" bonuses from SMT IV to SMT IV FINAL?
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Yes, you get a piece of equipment, vendor trash, XP items (the number for this depends on the number of routes you've completed IV), and some Streetpass/DDS Card vanity rewards (background and a title based on your completed route on IV).

EDIT: Famitu's put up actual screenshots of the DLCs. Spoilers obviously, and the last one is a full dungeon that has as guest party members

the numbered mainline protagonists as drawn by Doi. I'm sad Tamaki and Spess Mehreen aren't an option but I'll take that DLC!
 
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Hmm, i wonder if they'll get rid of that glitch that lets you pass unpassable skills with the English release.
 
Strange Journey doesn't really have an optimistic Neutral ending. You just destroyed Mem Aleph and the Schwarzwelt, and you gave up all your transhuman knowledge. If humanity fucks up again, nothing stops us from permanently destroying the ability of Earth to sustain intelligent life, apart from Lucifer or YHVH deciding to intervene.
 
Bakustra said:
Strange Journey doesn't really have an optimistic Neutral ending. You just destroyed Mem Aleph and the Schwarzwelt, and you gave up all your transhuman knowledge. If humanity fucks up again, nothing stops us from permanently destroying the ability of Earth to sustain intelligent life, apart from Lucifer or YHVH deciding to intervene.
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Plus civilization is still severly damaged by the demons spilling out from the Schwarzwelt while Spes Mehreen and crew were trying to bail out. Add to that the fact that Earth's resources were already low at the start of the game and recovery's pretty much borked.
 
Warning For Marginal Behavior - Violation of Rule 2 - Slurs
It's still better than either Law or Chaos, probably. As much as I like Lucifer on a personal level, his vision for humanity is...kind of batshit insane and horrifying on every level. And as for Law...well, there's really only one way to say this:

>2016
>unironically being a lawfag

Fuck YHWH and fuck Mastema.
 
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