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Breaker of Chains (30k Angron Quest)

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Gunman said:
Why not walk away? There are too many things that can go wrong if Angron were to kill Tchar and Angron would be doing something so important behind the backs of every other brother he has.
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Because walking away leaves us in the exact same situation we were before we walked into the room: Ghreer is still in debt to Tchar and we still have it in our ear trying to turn the legion to Chaos. And since the legion is split, there'd be even less we could do about it.

Tomsawyer18 said:
a thought occurred to me.

If you want to free tchar why not make one last deal with him.

His freedom and life and in exchange he makes no more deals, not with Angron or any primarch, not with humanity or alien. Tchar goes back to the warp and stays there, for eternity.

Take his piece off the board.
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I don't think it'd go for that but it's worth floating
 
IDK, Angron's great as a warrior god who'll fight Chaos, but I think Lorgar's got the wrong picture of his brother if he thinks he'll also make a compassionate shepherd figure. If he's looking for compassion or sacrifice, Lorgar probably would have had better luck with Vulkan or Sanguinius.
 
On the other hand, revolution in the Imperium would probably be a moral thing to do. The Imperium is a monster astride the galaxy and tearing it down so that something new could be born could definitely be seen as a heroic act. Tchar may not have the best intentions given they are a Chaos daemon but the goal of revolution against the Imperium is a good one. However, we wouldn't want such a revolution to be corrupted by Chaos like in the original timeline or we will just be replacing one monstrous reign with another. For something new and better to be built from the ashes we must find a different way than what the Emperor or Chaos are offering. That is Lorgar's plan and I think it's a good one.
 
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I think Angron should walk away. We cannot trust Tchar. For all we know killing Tchar to give birth to this Golden Lord can be what will spark a civil war. There are too many potential problems with killing Tchar. Angron has the Nails and is genocidal. Angron would be committing a treacherous act and giving up his soul in the name of creating this new warp god.

Angron should walk away. Angron is smart enough to know he cannot foresee the consequences of killing a daemon with such a weapon will do. There is a lack of any kind of formal process at the highest echelons of the Imperium and killing Tchar to create a new god would be continuing that. Angron is already on thin enough ice after killing a primarch and wiping out an entire legion behind the back of the Emperor, Horus and most of his fellow primarchs.

Freeing Tchar would be a betrayal of Lorgar, his brother. Tchar wants nothing more than to see the galaxy burn so Tzeencht can feast on the souls of countless human souls.
 
On a meta-level, I'm inclined to say that no matter how personally trustworthy Tchar is it's still a greater daemon of Tzeentch, and if I had to pick any of the chaos gods to weaken even temporarily it'd be Tzeentch. The less power "twisty plans that make everything go wrong no matter what you do" has in the coming war, the better.

As for killing an ally... Tchar isn't Angron's ally. They've always been using each other for their own goals, and being fairly up front about that. E.g. remember when we had to pick a boon from Tchar because if we didn't it'd pick for us and we had no guarantee it'd be something we'd actually want for ourselves? Or how we are very much not happy about the way Ghreer's deal went, even if we're glad that it did save our legion from us? If we don't ultimately support a Chaos victory, we were always going to have to go against Tchar in the end.

Binding Tchar goes pretty deeply against Angron's principles, and again on a meta-level feels like the most likely thing here to backfire in the end.

So.

[] Slay Tchar
 
The problem with freeing him is that it's the option that is, effectively Angron choosing Chaos over his brother. An action that shows he considers T'char an ally - even if one who he doesn't want his legion making deals with.

In other words - No Lorgar. The universe is indeed petty enough for it to simply be 2 sides going against each other, with only a handful of players. You were wrong to believe in us and should have gone your canon route. And the words that meant so much to you at monarchia meant nothing, and you're a fool for caring.
 
Kemayo said:
As for killing an ally... Tchar isn't Angron's ally. They've always been using each other for their own goals, and being fairly up front about that. E.g. remember when we had to pick a boon from Tchar because if we didn't it'd pick for us and we had no guarantee it'd be something we'd actually want for ourselves? Or how we are very much not happy about the way Ghreer's deal went, even if we're glad that it did save our legion from us? If we don't ultimately support a Chaos victory, we were always going to have to go against Tchar in the end.
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Angron explicitly calls Tchar an ally in the update. 'Can you slay an ally on suspicion, bind a spirit in chains, and look your reflection in the eye? Is that what the daemon warns you of, speaking of the Anathema's power and its price? Or are these yet more lies, more misdirections?' So, it's fair to say Angron considers Tchar their ally. Whether we think Tchar is an ally is up for question but Angron considers them one.
 
I think there's something to be said for how Angron is a warrior, he's okay with killing someone, but he's maybe not okay with murdering someone - and in turn, Tchar is someone who's now been brought up short by the realisation that oh, this is real, it's going to actually die here.

Like that's the thing, Tchar has been a positive ally throughout the quest, just not 100% open and above-board about how they've treated with Angron. That's not out of duplicity or underhanded malice or anything, it's just... that essential nature of an immortal schemer playing with the world of flesh, tempting the hapless pawns within it. A kind of unspoken arrogance, that they never really need to consider the mortal's perspective beyond how to frame the bargains in the most tempting fashion. Why shouldn't they, if not break their word, weasel around it by lies of omission and perspective that are close enough as makes no difference? They're immortal, and can't be held to account.

Well. Angron and Lorgar are now demonstrating that they can hold Tchar to account. And I think it's worth asking: Do we, in fact, need to do anything beyond that?

That's a genuine question, by the way. I'm honestly not sure. Simply by dint of the fact that we can bind a daemon and introduce it to mortality the hard way is, in itself, a demonstration that we are real people deserving of respect, and if you're going to make bargains with us, Mr. Daemon, it behooves you to... to think not just about what deal to offer, but how to offer it, to deal honestly and fairly at the negotiating table, rather than just sidling up to us in a moment of weakness. To go through the proper channels, as it were. To acknowledge that we warrant the respect of having 'proper channels'.

Remember, after all, we came here to free Ghreer. Well,
Maugan Ra said:
"I did no such thing," Tchar snarls, a galaxy collapsing into a swirling void of darkness, shimmering cracks spreading through the air around it before being sealed once more beneath the weight of renewed prayer. What are the Word Bearers even praying to, you wonder. This god that does not exist? "A bargain freely offered, a price fairly agreed. That has always been my way. If such is too much for you, then I offer this - release me, and I shall renounce all claims upon the Chainbreakers."
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Maugan Ra said:
I offer this - release me, and I shall renounce all claims upon the Chainbreakers."
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Tchar offered us that first thing. That's what we came for, offered without ambiguity or attached strings. As Maugan said, 'Tchar does not and has never needed to play coy or include hidden tricks or stings in the tail when it makes its bargains'.

There are pitfalls, of course. The fact that Lorgar can pull this off might make daemons come for him. Tchar is far from the norm for his kind, in how openly and fairly he deals with us. There are always unknowns and what-ifs, such is life, and I can understand judging that those what-ifs are concerning enough to say, yeah, gotta kill 'em. But, like I said at the start - Angron is a warrior, he's okay with killing someone. Is he okay with murdering someone, if he doesn't need to? Set aside the whole, cosmic significance, what sort of god are we making aspect of it.

Is that who he is?
 
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Really liked that heavier than a mountain/lighter than a feather bit on the sword - it's an interesting pairing here of death and duty, and a kinda telling reference to the Imperial Rescript. Original being, of course, "duty is heavier than a mountain, death is lighter than a feather." Kinda telling for what Angron's shaping himself up to be.
 
Cassiemouse said:
Yea, murdering a prisoner in cold blood who is begging for their life is pretty nasty stuff. However, they totally did conspire to brew a civil war in the Imperium which would cause death and destruction on a massive scale. They were honest with us about their aims but that was still their goal. I don't believe in the death penalty as a punishment for criminals but if anyone has earned then it's Tchar. Very tricky decision, yes. I am not sure whether slay or free is the best option but I am leaning towards free.
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The "was planning to cause a civil war within the Imperium" I am inclined to give a pass on because that's a reaction of most people with functional moral compasses twenty minutes after meeting the Emperor (on the other side of the galaxy, Roboute Guilliman sneezes while shoving his Secret Plan For A Cool Secessionist Empire in his Secret Plan Drawer).
 
Fleurs de Merde said:
Really liked that heavier than a mountain/lighter than a feather bit on the sword - it's an interesting pairing here of death and duty, and a kinda telling reference to the Imperial Rescript. Original being, of course, "duty is heavier than a mountain, death is lighter than a feather." Kinda telling for what Angron's shaping himself up to be.
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I loved it too. As a side note that's purely born out of personal interest: I believe the phrase was also popularised in part by the Wheel of Time series.
 
Okay with what Maugan Ra has said it's clear that Tchar itself has not been an antagonist to us. So it would be wildly out of character for Angron to enslave it.
Binding it is right out.

IC killing it fits with our growing suspicion of it and frustration with/suspicion of the webs it and it's kind weave. For instance, wasn't one of the deals it offered someone information on its dealings with us?
It's far from an ally or friend. Sure, it wasn't breaking a deal with us to inform others about our dealings or to set up conflict with Malcador and Dorn. (even though that would result in the deaths of *many* if not all of our legion. By the same token, when its convenient for us why would it be wrong of us to kill it?

That's clearly the game we're playing. It's understandable that it pleads to save its life but it's nothing more than rhetorical chaff.

Really the question is do we benefit more from freeing or killing it and I side with killing it. I'm dubious of our ability to have an ironclad contract that would protect us from its machinations both direct and indirect. and it would put us in a far better position with Horus and others to be able to truthfully say that we slew the demon that had its hooks in Ghreer.
 
Slay seems like it's doubling down on the more responsible Angron who is willing to take on the burdens of duty while Free seems to call back to the old Angron who wanted to just rid himself of his responsibilities and act as a champion of his cause instead.
 
Wade Garrett said:
The "was planning to cause a civil war within the Imperium" I am inclined to give a pass on because that's a reaction of most people with functional moral compasses twenty minutes after meeting the Emperor
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True but Angron cares about the personal, not abstract discussions of ethics. Tchar specifically schemed to try and have many of our brothers die in the immediate aftermath fighting Dorn.
 
Imrix said:
I think there's something to be said for how Angron is a warrior, he's okay with killing someone, but he's maybe not okay with murdering someone - and in turn, Tchar is someone who's now been brought up short by the realisation that oh, this is real, it's going to actually die here.

-snip-

Well. Angron and Lorgar are now demonstrating that they can hold Tchar to account. And I think it's worth asking: Do we, in fact, need to do anything beyond that?

That's a genuine question, by the way. I'm honestly not sure. Simply by dint of the fact that we can bind a daemon and introduce it to mortality the hard way is, in itself, a demonstration that we are real people deserving of respect, and if you're going to make bargains with us, Mr. Daemon, it behooves you to... to think not just about what deal to offer, but how to offer it, to deal honestly and fairly at the negotiating table, rather than just sidling up to us in a moment of weakness. To go through the proper channels, as it were. To acknowledge that we warrant the respect of having 'proper channels'.
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Honestly..... that is a good point.

So building on what I was suggesting earlier, we offer it a deal.

It goes free and renounces it's claims on us and our Legion, but it does not offer it's Deals to anyone else. It lets the Other Daemons know that the mortals are no longer mere Playthings for their amusement. And that the mercy it was shown is to be the last of it's sort. And if it does not accept the deal, kill it. Perhaps with a twinge of regret, but either way, it had a chance. A wonderful symbolic start to the story of a new god.
 
Wade Garrett said:
I'm going to vote to free Tchar.

Not as part of a bargain or plan, but because the murder of a helpless prisoner, one that has never wronged Angron in any way, never lied to him, the intervention on Thramas saved people Angron cares about, that leaves me cold. And I can't say I'm very excited about the idea of a divine being whose big formative creation ritual is the slaughter of a helpless sacrifice, either. That's the kind of thing that has resonances in the Warp.

Binding is almost as bad, it makes Angron a slaver and the Golden Lord a fist around a throat.

I say let Tchar go. Show mercy. Not because I think it's going to have profound metaphysical consequences or "reform" a Chaos Gods (I doubt such any such thing is possible) but because I don't think Angron is the kind of man to murder a helpless being because of what it might do in the future.
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Angron with the exception of his small group of freed gladiators, wiped out the population of his homeworld, man, woman, and child, i'm pretty sure a lot of those are prisoners begging for mercy.
 
astergremlin said:
True but Angron cares about the personal, not abstract discussions of ethics. Tchar specifically schemed to try and have many of our brothers die in the immediate aftermath fighting Dorn.
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Not sure if that part was confirmed, though yes T'char did want us to murder Malcs and Dorn, though presumably the resulting conflict would have lead to such losses.
 
Regarding the issue of killing a bound prisoner, why not free Tchar and then kill it? Challenge it first to a dual to the death free and unencumbered. Then free it and subsequently kill it.

If Lorgar wants his faith to be born in the spirit he suggests then he should be understanding.
 
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Holy crap Lorgar you just jumped from 0 to 100 and I love it.

Absolutely shank birb.

I don't care if it's 'oh maybe Tzeentch planned for this' (pretty sure most of the time that fucker just 'plans' for everything and then claims credit afterward) and, quite frankly, 'we don't know what the effects of killing him will be' isn't a reason to not do it. I am 100% onboard with shank birb and seeing exactly where Lorgar's Wild Ride takes us. This is great.
 
king208 said:
Regarding the issue of killing a bound prisoner, why not free tchar and them kill it? Challenge it first to a dual to the death free and unencumbered. Then free it and subsequently kill it.

If Lorgar wants his faith to be born in the spirit he suggests then he should be understanding.
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This is also a Symbolic start as well, I like it. A Violent God, how could it truly be otherwise, but a fair one.
 
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