Box-Chan in WH40k thread

Based on what I've heard secondhand, I was under the impression that the primary goal of the Great Crusade was to unify all the lost human worlds, and destroy any threats to them. The problem was that doing so was an extreme case of "number go up", where the number and speed of world expansion was more important than long term stability, so rather than use real diplomacy, most imperial forces used gunboat diplomacy or just outright conquered new worlds with pure overwhelming military force.

At best, the Emperor wasn't a fascist, but set up a system with directives in such a way that it would eventually lead to being fascist in the "military force determines everything" sense, and was either uncaring of this, or was simply inhuman enough to be unable to foresee that this would be the end result(see "why would people need religion?")
 
I've been exposed to 40k content on and off for many, many years and I believe this is the first time I've ever seen someone claim the Big E launched the crusade to contain orks.

This is not the first time I've seen the idea that Orks were poised to invade the galaxy. It's a common fanon concept*.

It is implied by a number of sources that the warp storms which had covered most of the galaxy during the Age of Strife were basically keeping a lot of spacefaring polities penned up, including several Ork empires like the ones centred around Charradon and Ullanor. Once the warp storms abated, an expansionist power which had been contained to a region of space, or even a single system, might be free to expand rapidly from their "starting area" if they moved quickly enough, brutally seizing unsuspecting worlds which had been isolated for millennia. This would have the added danger of a kind of snowball effect, as each conquest would allow the conqueror to extract resources to fuel further conquests, until the whole galaxy was subjugated and drenched with innocent blood.

Luckily, foreseeing this threat, the Emperor acted swiftly to prevent it from happening.


*(I.E., any concept which makes the attempt to add coherent structuralist worldbuilding to Warhammer 40K.)
 
Do you know why there aren't many warlords left in the world nowadays? It's because modern states absolutly clown on warlord clans in every single way in terms of capacity to project force.
Not disputing that
I've been exposed to 40k content on and off for many, many years and I believe this is the first time I've ever seen someone claim the Big E launched the crusade to contain orks.
The Beast book series confirm that
And that's why they decided to blow up the Interex and a thousand other polities who probably would've served as a better buffer against orks than the charred ruins which were instead left in the crusade's wake.
The Interex were like 5 system at the end of the GC, they would not have had the manpower to act as more than a tripwire to the orks of Gorro or Ullanor.
It's the kind of lie a warlord would tell to convince their soldiers why the war was "necessary": Only the glorious Empire has the power to resist The Enemy, so anyone else who isn't controlled by The Empire has to be conqured. For their own protection, of course. Pay no attention to the fields of corpses we left in our "protection" efforts.

The Emperor lied.
If you decide to discard some argument and say that the books in omniscient 3rd person were lying then i can absolutely do the same and say that radiant was the evil polity and they are absolutely encoraging the rape and poison gassing of civilians.
Luckily, foreseeing this threat, the Emperor acted swiftly to prevent it from happening.

Yes, Greek Tragedy 101, the hero is defeated by his own virtues and caused what he sought to avoid through hubris.
 
The Beast book series confirm that
Where/how? I don't recall seeing that be actually confirmed, and the Beast book series are all written with PoV characters who would be mistaken/lied to anyway.

"Oh we need to conquer the galaxy to save it from Orks" is a ridiculous argument. IIRC Orks barely care about warp storms anyway, what exactly was stopping them from filling the galaxy with endless krork during the Age of Strife?
This also fits with the "the krork emerged because of the Crusade's very existence" argument.

Yes, Greek Tragedy 101, the hero is defeated by his own virtues and caused what he sought to avoid through hubris
You misunderstand. The Emperor isn't the hero, he's the threat.

The Interex were like 5 system at the end of the GC, they would not have had the manpower to act as more than a tripwire to the orks of Gorro or Ullanor.
Then why did the Imperium have to genocide them, if they were so weak?
Earlier, you said 'we can't let the Interex keep existing, they'd be a dagger pointed at the Imperium's back'. So now you're saying that not only is this baseless xenophobia, but it's also untrue?
 
If you decide to discard some argument and say that the books in omniscient 3rd person were lying then i can absolutely do the same and say that radiant was the evil polity and they are absolutely encoraging the rape and poison gassing of civilians.


Yes, Greek Tragedy 101, the hero is defeated by his own virtues and caused what he sought to avoid through hubris.

1) derpmind accused the Imperium of using lies in propaganda. They didn't reference actual book text at all. so the "how dare you accuse the omniscient 3rd person narrator?" Is entirely mistimed.

2) what virtue are we talking about here? The virtue of being bad at parenting? The virtue of hiding critical information from your generals? The virtue of genocide?
 
Where/how? I don't recall seeing that be actually confirmed, and the Beast book series are all written with PoV characters who would be mistaken/lied to anyway.
In the beast book series it is mentioned that the orks were essentially ignored for centuries after the heresy because the Imperium was focused on harrying traitor forces.
Then why did the Imperium have to genocide them, if they were so weak?
Earlier, you said 'we can't let the Interex keep existing, they'd be a dagger pointed at the Imperium's back'. So now you're saying that not only is this baseless xenophobia, but it's also untrue?
No, the dagger i mentioned was the Diasporex aka entire civilization in Archaeotech warships that were cruising near Imperial territory.
The interex extermination was a clusterfuck from both side, they were in discussion with Horus to integrate the Imperium.
Erebus stole a chaos artifact that the Interex was stupid enough to have on display in a museum.
The Interex thought this was under order of Horus and began attacking him and his legion while they were still in diplomatic talk.
2) what virtue are we talking about here? The virtue of being bad at parenting? The virtue of hiding critical information from your generals? The virtue of genocide?
Perseverance, Dignity, Discipline,… The antiquity virtues, you know since i mentioned Ancient Greek Tragedy.
 
In the beast book series it is mentioned that the orks were essentially ignored for centuries after the heresy because the Imperium was focused on harrying traitor forces.
Let's review...

the claim was: "the Big E launched the crusade [to form the Imperium] to contain orks."
as proven by: "it is mentioned that the orks were essentially ignored for centuries after the heresy"


 
Last edited:
No, the dagger i mentioned was the Diasporex aka entire civilization in Archaeotech warships that were cruising near Imperial territory.
Why did this lead to their genocide, actually? Was there a reason beyond "I can't tolerate anyone else having a warship because they might someday attack me"?
IIRC the Diasporex were a nonhostile democracy that the aggressive fascist state attacked for no reason. Is this an inaccurate portrayal of the situation?

IIRC the big reason they were killed is "they had psykers in leadership positions" and "we want to genocide aliens", which is a bit hypocritical when you consider the Imperium itself uses psykers massively, and at the time was led by psykers who also sometimes dealt with aliens.

The interex extermination was a clusterfuck from both side, they were in discussion with Horus to integrate the Imperium.
To be clear, this is the specific example used to show that Horus used to be uncommonly nice, right? IIRC it specifically gets mentioned because it's unusual - the normal Imperial reaction to seeing anyone coexist with aliens was genocide.
As you do, when you're a normal person. Casual genocide of non-threats and tiny species to "save humanity from taint". A humanity that survived the age of strife and constant Chaos predation despite being mostly composed of post-apocalyptic primitives without preparation, education or science. This makes sense, I can definitely see a massive risk of apocalyptic taint from peaceful coexistence with random aliens like the Kinebrach.
Have you heard of the Kinebrach in the list of reasons why the 40k galaxy is grimdark? Probably not, because they seemed better than most humans: they had a democracy, a civilization that functioned with only the kind of low-grade warp-taint that most human worlds struggle with except that they managed it without lynchings and mass murder, they didn't regress into savage techno-barbarians...
 
Last edited:
IIRC the big reason they were killed is "they had psykers in leadership positions" and "we want to genocide aliens", which is a bit hypocritical when you consider the Imperium itself uses psykers massively, and at the time was led by psykers who also sometimes dealt with aliens.

The "psykers in leadership postions" didn't come up at all. Fulgrim never even for a moment considered coexistance. They were aliens, so they needed to die.
 
Last edited:
how is this relevant to box-chan? can we just agree that Emps/his empire are fash and move on?
 
Last edited:
Let's review...

the claim was: "the Big E launched the crusade [to form the Imperium] to contain orks."
as proven by: "it is mentioned that the orks were essentially ignored for centuries after the heresy"
Let's review:
The claim was: "the Orks are a huge threat when left unculled for centuries such as during the age of strife and in that case the galaxy need multiple coordinated campaigns to reduce the threat »
As proven by « the beast arose because the imperium mainly focused on purging traitors forces for centuries and nearly brought the imperium to its knees »
This makes sense, I can definitely see a massive risk of apocalyptic taint from peaceful coexistence with random aliens like the Kinebrach.
First for the diasporex, you don't let armed warship inside your national waters.
The kinebrach really ? The alien who were using chaos weapons ? Who displayed chaos artifact in museum ? Who decided out of the blue to join the Interex into a subordinate position ? Sure look like chaos infiltration to me.
The "psykers in leadership postions" didn't come up at all. Fulgrim never even for a moment considered coexistance. They were aliens, so they needed to die.
Fulgrim was a glory hound who also genocided the Laer, but that book do tell us the imperial fleet was considering making them a protectorate until overriden by Fulgrim… aka there was a standard procedure to integrate peaceful aliens civilization.
 
Fulgrim was a glory hound who also genocided the Laer, but that book do tell us the imperial fleet was considering making them a protectorate until overriden by Fulgrim… aka there was a standard procedure to integrate peaceful aliens civilization.

I read that book and I remember absolutely nothing of the sort. I also remember that a lot peeps in Horus Rising were extremely skeptical about talking with the interex because they coexisted with aliens, even the slavery the interex practiced was too much for the Imperium. And yes, the Kinebranch were not in any way equals in that relationship, there was very clearly a hierarchy in the interex and the humans were on top and the kinebranch on the bottom. Was it full slavery? I don't remember, but it wasn't happy family ally time like the Diasporex was.

There is a trend here, of the Imperimum suffering not the xeno to live.
 
First for the diasporex, you don't let armed warship inside your national waters.
To be clear, the Imperium doesn't get to claim the entire fucking galaxy as its "national waters" and then throw a genocide bitch-fit when the peaceful people who lived there first dare to continue to exist as nomads in that area.

Also, doesn't the Imperium have a far larger fleet? What next, will the French Navy destroy the Spanish Navy for daring to exist in the same ocean as them, making them a "security threat"?
Of course not, because in real life strong nations absolutely can exist without obliterating weaker ones. Especially when the weaker ones stay far away from the strong nation's ports, which IIRC the Diasporex had been doing.

The kinebrach really ? The alien who were using chaos weapons ? Who displayed chaos artifact in museum ?
Humans do that too lol, they're fine. The Imperium is absolutely full of random chaos artefacts in noble collections, in Admech or Inquisitorial centers, in underhive gangs, etc.
These places don't suddenly become daemon-worlds. Usually, nothing much happens for ages, because if you have decent safety protocols and/or a culture that says "no to murder and worship of the evil gods" you can manage things just fine. Dark Heresy is pretty clear that things usually go wrong when some dumbass decides to start using them for power or whatever - it's human ambition and desire to touch Chaos that makes things go bad, not just the magical evil radiation of every single Chaos-touched speck of dust.
Also, slippery slope arguments are bullshit.

Remember that one of the tragic things about the Imperium is how they kill people who don't deserve to be killed.

Who decided out of the blue to join the Interex into a subordinate position ?
That's not the vibe I got from them at all. It felt like coercion to me, if presented "politely" (but that's a classic historiography, nobody normal likes to say "yeah we totally oppressed the fuck out of them and they hate it").
 
Last edited:
First for the diasporex, you don't let armed warship inside your national waters.
So they had sent warships to systems run by the Imperium?
No, the dagger i mentioned was the Diasporex aka entire civilization in Archaeotech warships that were cruising near Imperial territory.
Hmm, I dunno. It sounds like they've gone from "near" to "inside" since you realized the first one wasn't getting any traction.

Though given the Emperor's ambitions, you could probably just wait for "near" to become "inside" through no fault of the Diasporex. In that case, the Imperium would be dedicated to the destruction of all military capability in the galaxy other than its own, which seems contrary to the alleged goal of strengthening the galaxy against military threats.
 
Son in all seriousness, the reason why it's Orks specifically is because there are prominent mentions of campaigns in the Great Crusade against major Ork empires, some of which were able to fight the fledgling Imperium on pretty equal terms. (Including that one Warboss who looked at the Emperor and said to himself "I'm about to choke a bitch".) Ullanor is one, but there's a few mentioned, with quite detailed mentions going back to before the Horus Heresy series. Many of these Ork empires had large populations of human slaves who they forced to produce munitions for them - an atrocity mentioned frequently in the histories of the Imperium, which of course would would never use forced labour to produce its munitions.

So if we view the galaxy post Age of Strife as kind of a like house of cards - lots of worlds that had been isolated and could be conquered pretty quickly by any aggressive power with a big fleet - then "some big Ork empire" is not a terrible bet for who would be knocking them down, if the Emperor hadn't done it first. Indeed, a lot of the crazy urgency with which the Great Crusade was conducted almost looks like a speedrun attempt at the galaxy. The Emperor seems to have been cognisant of the fact that he had a limited window to act in, or his job would get a lot harder because there'd be less soft targets. Either because someone else had conquered them first, or they had formed alliances against roving conquerors.

The second most popular candidate for this is the Rangdan, who have achieved memetic status as "big scary alien empire who could fight the Imperium on equal terms", let down by the fact that they only show up for like a page in one book. The Orks have had a lot more detail for much longer, often being one of the only detailed depictions of who the Imperium were fighting during the Crusade. Plus recently they had a twelve novel series where they were the major antagonists, which has a lot of extremely stupid stuff in it.

Obviously this is taking a view of 40K as a setting where other species or polities actually have agency, and history is a product of structural forces, rather than a story revolving around big men with bigger pauldrons. This is not necessarily the default read of the setting, to put it mildly, but if you are emotionally invested in 40K due to exposure at a vulnerable age, you quickly realise that you have to do a lot of the worldbuilding yourself if you want worldbuilding, rather than a crazy collage of different influences. Games Workshop certainly aren't going to do it for you, they're too busy sending death squads to fan animators. :V

Anyway, wasn't this meant to be a thread about sending boxes to 40K, not the Great Crusade?
 
So, I can't claim to be an expert here but while the 40k imperium is pretty shit, the Emperor should be pretty stoked for the wonder box.

I mean, the dude was basically doing sheepdog 101, get all his group in a flock asap so it's easier to protect.

Making some sort of oppressive empire wasn't the point, dude had like thousands of years to mind control humanity into that if he gave a fuck about that. The shitty empire was a side effect of "get everyone together asap" and then failing to really hit step 2 of that fixing shit plan because of the warp fuckers causing civil war. The imperial truth was basically weaponised atheism used in an attempt to sterilize the warp that to work needed to be widespread asap, much like the need to get logistics for a galactic power worked out.

Widescale use of the wonderbox means a shit load of those old compromises and holding efforts are no longer needed. Maintaining control of various planets for logistics is irrelevant. The Emperor (if he could) would likely be gleefully using to box to topple the imperium.

Not sure how democratic a Government can safely be with the level of warp corruption/fanatical religious indoctrination. But then again, with the power of the Box, they can afford the luxury of fucking around and experimenting, if a bunch of planets vote to fuck off they can afford it.
 
So, I can't claim to be an expert here but while the 40k imperium is pretty shit, the Emperor should be pretty stoked for the wonder box.

The Emperor would hate the box for the same reason the charters and compact hate the box: control.

Making some sort of oppressive empire wasn't the point

It really really was. If he wanted anything else, he would have gone about building it a very different way. The empire was always an empire. He's very clearly uninterested in humanity as anything but something for him to control, and the only option offered to even other human polities is total submission. And that's of course without talking about the aliens and non baseline humans.

What he didn't intend was for the oppressive empire to be oppressive through dysfunction rather than through his will. But that's what always happens to fascism as it ages so that's really on him for not opening a history book.
 
Last edited:
The Emperor would hate the box for the same reason the charters and compact hate the box: control.



It really really was. If he wanted anything else, he would have gone about building it a very different way. The empire was always an empire. He's very clearly uninterested in humanity as anything but something for him to control, and the only option offered to even other human polities is total submission. And that's of course without talking about the aliens and non baseline humans.

What he didn't intend was for the oppressive empire to be oppressive through dysfunction rather than through his will. But that's what always happens to fascism as it ages so that's really on him for not opening a history book.
So why did humanity previously exist outside his control?

If it is as you say the Emperor should have held absolute power long before he actually took power, there should have been no time when humanity was outside his control.
 
Last edited:
i mean wasnt there like some warp storm stuff between like m20 and m30 that made doing imperialisms infeasible
 
Why is humanity your only concern?
Because I was responding to a post stating that the Emperor deliberately wanted to control humanity.

It's kind of relevant.

I mean, they clearly exterminated most aliens due to bad breakup trauma and paranoia.

If you want to claim that the canon emperor wanted to control the Aliens, I am afraid I will have to call that silly.
 
Look. We don't know why the Emperor sat on his hands until the Age of Strife, The Emperor was a shitty person and his "conquest" was as barebones as possible.

For all that we remember the conquests and genocides, he aggressively sought to keep the existing power structures in place in order to avoid having to do anything more than recieve oaths of loyalty. Just see Nuceria as an example. Or every single noble line going back to the Conquest.

He wasn't even a great strategist. Any victory I can think of amounts to "throw bigger guns at it", "throw more transhuman super-soldiers at it", and "if necessary, throw more psychic power at it".

I look at it this way. The Emperor does love humankind. In the same way a miser loves money. People aren't people to him, they're resources and assets. And he wants to own them all.

*edit*

Back on topic, the latest omake on the original thread implied the Sororitas were going to fight Box-chan. Or at least try and control her.

Do you think rejection by Church leadership will result in a "Black Catholic" movement or in something closer to the French Revolution's dechristianization of France?
 
Last edited:
There were absolutely massive warp storms that made long-term travel impossible except in small gaps (during which time the Mechanicus was sending out colony ships) but it doesn't really explain why the Emperor didn't conquer Earth, unless there was a fundamental fact that he needed Earth to become as weak as possible before he could move. He did have a genuinely difficult time conquering the planet in the first place, certainly more than most of the Great Crusade.

The end of the Age of Strife and the period of the Great Crusade should be understand as a galactic free for all akin to the beginning of a Stellaris Game. There were almost no galactic entities larger than a few systems. The Emperor's great power in this respect was timing it in such a way that he was able to conquer Earth and be prepared to break out just at the moment when there was not enough power to oppose him.

This helps explain the slapdash insanity of the Great Crusade. It is not just a matter of the Emperor imagining that he needed to stop the Orks or whatever - but also that if he waited too long he might have real human rivals arrayed against him that would imperil his head-start as the man sitting on the single largest cache of Dark Age of Technology materiel in the galaxy.

He had massive advantages that no other faction could match and was riding on the combination of his own ridiculous psyker powers and that cache plus the Mechanicus on his side. And it's telling that the alliance with the Mechanicus, one of the only times the Emperor really ceded any level of control and forged an alliance, was actually one of the single most essential things to the Imperium. If anything, treating this alliance-building as a one-time offer rather than a model for the galaxy was a catastrophic decision which helped lead to the Horus Heresy and the pointless extinguishment of so much life.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top