Box-Chan in WH40k thread

Huh this gives me a few ideas and I have a few explanations

1. Radiant is kinda like Egypt in the sense that it's culture and traditions have survived for a huge chunk of human history. The "problem"(for the ecclesiarchy, nobility and chaos but more specifically the imperial fists) it still acts and operates in a similar way as it began, ie like it's still in the tyrantsverse era and through it's own machinations and others any attempt to make it grimdark or like most "heroic" 40k planets tend to crash and burn hard.Hell it took a 3 week long debate by emps to get them to agree to even join the imperium (they have the transcripts on Radiant for Radiant and inquisitorial eyes only and it's considered alone of the best debates in history and their have been 3 million threadbans just for arguing who was right. It is considered the best debate about freedom and tyranny in existence) and even then they were more of an ally and they were promised full control of the iterators and had a bunch of other benefits a la the mechanicus.

2.Bold Contemplation wasn't the only one at the last church Uriah was there too. Thanks to RH emps being different the debate was even more spirited and undecided (also it's in Radiants records and rivals the Radiant-Emperor debates in terms of threadbans) and at the end he allowed both to stay their with the church since he considered it a historical artifact and because he said to Contemplation that if he was right their would be no living thing that would go back to the church to willingly worship but if she was right eventually they would have a full congregation. Fast forward to the Heresy Perty and the iron warriors are wrecking historical sites in order to make room for defences and he gets into a debate with Contemplation that boils down to Perty saying "I will do whatever it takes to protect the homeworld and if it involves blowing this up I will. Also I've already caused worse damage to Terra's cultural heritage than anyone else in the history of man so how is a single church going to make a difference" with Contemplation replying with "what's the point of willing to protect the planet if it's going to end up as an artless corpse world either way. Also every single thing counts and even if it's one or two artifacts are protected than that will make a world of difference". This ended up with the church being to moved to Radiant and Perty breaking down in a remorseful crying fit due to his stress and horror.The crying fit is actually canon in RH and even in the 41st millennium the population hates all astartes on site thanks to what the RH iron warriors did,they also have a severe case of hemophobia so bad that even inquisitors and gangers will make their killings as bloodless as possible if their forced to kill and most of the time they will execute people by moving them to the room and killing them so they don't violate the spirit of the oath slash hemophobia.



3. It's complicated for the VdCb since while most of the core group like Kusanagi are alive the VdCb has been forced to have highly exclusive recruitment over the millennia due to attrition. While "Official" imperial history of the low level secret variety has the VdCb join the emperor and is similar to how you described it. Chaos says that the VdCb nearly killed the emperor and are kindred spirits.The reality is much different. When they did meet they did try and kill him and the emperor did talk with them and explained his plans for humanity. Essentially it boiled to him reuniting all of humanity and creating the webway for fast and easy transportation before releasing a improved version of the Box with every single STC known to man inside it and giving it too pro democracy groups before using the custodes and astartes legions as bastions and killing the imperial apparatus on one fell swoop so humanity could live freely without gods or the scars of the great crusade. When the VdCb called bullshit on this and pointed he was a tyrant he showed that his life was shit and he already tried to rule humanity from the shadows by creating the Charters. Essentially the reason why RH emps retained his emotions was because he tried advancing humanity by creating the Charters and when he realized how much he fucked up he decided to self exile himself to a small research base on a insignificant planet that was called Radiant. He didn't cause the revolution or even influence it, he actually lost all hope in humanity and himself and was surprised when the reveloution happened and stayed on the lab team as a simple lab tech. So while emps did come to an accord with the VdCb it was essentially a letter of marque allowing the VdCb as much latitude as the custodes or Ordo Sinister as long as they didn't assainate anyone to high like a primarch or high Lord. In addition when emps rolled.oit the Box 2.0 they were in charge of killing the imperial high command and preventing imperial remnants from popping up.

This is a catastrophic misreading of both the AIC and the 40k Imperium.

Based on literally the verbatim text of the Roboutian Heresy, what would have happened was that the Emperor would have demanded that the AIC submit or die, they would have refused to join a literal monarchal empire, and the Imperium would have unleashed its assassins and its armies and its titans to try to force them into compliance. Because a slightly nicer and more sane fascist... is still a fascist!
 
The most notable canonical interaction between the Imperium and a reasonably stable post-strife human polity was the Interex, that integrated with an alien species known as the Kinebrach. Horus' cooperation and negotiation with them was explicitly presented as something that was abnormal and outside of his normal remit as the Emperor's son in Horus Rising.

So soon as a plot was hatched to sabotage these negotiations the default response of the Imperium turned back to effective extermination. Throughout negotiations the Imperium's forces were deeply and profoundly disgusted by the presence of the 'Xenos' and it was only a few Space Marines and Imperial agents, such as Horus himself, who were at least willing to hear out and investigate this alternative. But by and large the Imperium, which Horus in bucking from his normal orders was implicitly defying:

1. Brooked no quarter for humans who refused to join.
2. Exterminated aliens on an omnicidal scale.
3. Exterminated and enslaved humans who worked with aliens.

In the Diasporex, a human-alien nomadic federation's own words: The final words of the alien captain were "We only wished to be left alone"."

This was the 'golden age' of the Imperium.

Such an entity goes so far beyond the bounds of even the worst of the Tyrantsverse that it is a grotesque monster that must be resisted to the death, or if that is impossible, deliberately plotted against to its destruction. It is the ultimate vision of a genocidal, xenocidal galactic fascism.
 
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Again, you saying "most of the time he spent in Sol was doing wars and then he immediately did more wars instead of building solid institutions using his super-brain and magic powers" is you admitting he's a bad ruler. Sure, maybe doing the Crusades a bit slower would have meant a slightly smaller Imperium,
No, doing the crusades a bit slower would have had resulted into the Orks evolving back into the krork, producing war planetoid, and enslaving the galaxy(1). Or the Rangdan expanding and enslaving the galaxy(2), or any other expanding hostile xeno empire enslaving the galaxy.

(1)We have an example of an ork on the cusp of evolving into the Krork: The Warboss of Gorro which was strong enough to murk Custodes and was throttling the Emperor until Horus backstabbed him.
Another example of what happen if you leave orks to evolve is The Beast: aka Orks strong enough to throw down with primarchs with Attacks Moons and War Worlds with gravitic weapons powerful enough to destroy planets.

(2)The Rangdan were kicking the imperium ass hard enough that multiple legions of astartes were savaged(the dark angels lost their spot as the most numerous legion, and the death guard had to do emergency recruitment procedure).
To give examples of the emperor desperation:
a) The Emperor focused only on this front of the conquest for 60 years of the 200 years long Great Crusade.
b)He unleashed a shard of the void-dragon(a star eating vampire machine god) to fight them.
c) He blatantly broke the treaty of Mars by revealing he had Advanced warp-tech(and he had forbidden the mechanicum to study that field) on a Titan Legion that were under his direct order(All "God-Machines" were supposed to be under the order of the mechanicum). Call the Emperor a caveman fascist dictator all you want but he smart enough to not alienate an allied institution who supplied all his weaponry, supplies and ships.
d)The Rangdan needed three different campaign to no longer be a threat.

Tl;dr:The emperor simply didn't have the time to be a good ruler: The entire imperium in 30k is an emergency stopgap he would have purged at the end of the crusade. You simply don't treat the booboo on someone toe if he is currently dying from a massive gut wound.
In the Diasporex, a human-alien nomadic federation's own words: The final words of the alien captain were "We only wished to be left alone"."
That was the problem: they had fleets of ancient warships in an universe where ancient his better and refused diplomacy and lived as nomad. Letting them be would let a dagger be pointed in the back of the Segmentum.
Tl;dr: You don't let unidentified fleets that don't answer to your call in your territorial waters.
 
The entire imperium in 30k is an emergency stopgap he would have purged at the end of the crusade.

lol. lmao, even.

Fascism is not more efficient at anything. Fascism has never been more efficient at anything, and the disfunctionality of the Imperium is not a recent development. From the very outset, it has been a bloated and inefficient engine built on lies and failure, and if the Emperor actually gave a shit about keeping humanity safe from the "horrors of space" then he, well, wouldn't be a fucking Emperor in the first place.
 
I'm not sure how "the emperor was too busy killing scary foreigners to build institutions" is a rebuttal to the various critiques aimed at the Emperor in this thread.
 
This is the wrong thread to do fascist apologia, I'm afraid. "Actually he needed to be a xenocidal fascist" isn't going to work.

That was the problem: they had fleets of ancient warships in an universe where ancient his better and refused diplomacy and lived as nomad. Letting them be would let a dagger be pointed in the back of the Segmentum.
Tl;dr: You don't let unidentified fleets that don't answer to your call in your territorial waters.

There was no diplomacy. The Imperium asked the humans to break from their alien allies (so the aliens could be exterminated to the last sophont). They refused.
 
lol. lmao, even.
Fascism is not more efficient at anything. Fascism has never been more efficient at anything, and the disfunctionality of the Imperium is not a recent development. From the very outset, it has been a bloated and inefficient engine built on lies and failure, and if the Emperor actually gave a shit about keeping humanity safe from the "horrors of space" then he, well, wouldn't be a fucking Emperor in the first place.
Please quote back to me which part of my message was doing an apology of fascism, otherwise i'll consider what you are doing a straw man argument.
And btw i can prove the purging and abandoning power: At the end of the Great Crusade the emperor was preparing to break the tech monopoly from the mechanicum(see the Leviathan dreadnought which was created on terra and which tech and armamment were specialised for siege in environment similar to Mars and forges world) and the navigation monopoly from the Navigators(see the blanks projects and the Webway).
I'm not sure how "the emperor was too busy killing scary foreigners to build institutions" is a rebuttal to the various critiques aimed at the Emperor in this thread.
It is not a rebuttal of the critiques toward the emperor, it is a rebuttal toward the tendency of people on this thread to ignore the fact that the emperor was doing the galactic conquest because he was forced to and the conquest was on a short timer before the apocalypse.
Moreover those people tend to focus on secondary objectives the emperor ignored while he was all-in on "ensuring humanity survive"
 
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It is not a rebuttal of the critiques toward the emperor, it is a rebuttal toward the tendency of people on this thread to ignore the fact that the emperor was doing the galactic conquest because he was forced to and the conquest was on a short timer before the apocalypse.

Except that's also false. It is a plot point in one of the earlier Horus Heresy novels that the Emperor has decided to start taxing the worlds in the imperium. The Warboss of Gorros, the Rangdan, and everyone else the Imperium fought before the Heresy were defeated with only the resources of Sol System alone. Sol was, to be sure, an unusually powerful system, but it was only one system. An alliance of systems working together could surely have defeated any of those same threats. If, indeed, the Rangdan were as terrible as the Imperium claims them to be.
 
No, doing the crusades a bit slower would have had resulted into the Orks evolving back into the krork, producing war planetoid, and enslaving the galaxy(1). Or the Rangdan expanding and enslaving the galaxy(2), or any other expanding hostile xeno empire enslaving the galaxy.
The Orks/Krork are the galaxy's immune system. Their full power was unleashing during the Great Crusade because the Great Crusade was a threat to the galaxy. It is not something that happens unprovoked.
 
The Orks/Krork are the galaxy's immune system. Their full power was unleashing during the Great Crusade because the Great Crusade was a threat to the galaxy. It is not something that happens unprovoked.
Tell me you didn't read any wh40k book without telling it outright.
The orks are an out of control bioweapon from 60 millions years ago. They are the threat the galaxy.
And beside if you leave them "unprovoked" you get The Beast(War planetoid, Primarchs orks, etc...)
Except that's also false. It is a plot point in one of the earlier Horus Heresy novels that the Emperor has decided to start taxing the worlds in the imperium. The Warboss of Gorros, the Rangdan, and everyone else the Imperium fought before the Heresy were defeated with only the resources of Sol System alone. Sol was, to be sure, an unusually powerful system, but it was only one system. An alliance of systems working together could surely have defeated any of those same threats. If, indeed, the Rangdan were as terrible as the Imperium claims them to be.
Except they were not only using the resources of the solar systems but also of all the forges worlds in the galaxy(Which is a big part of the treaty of Mars)
Moreover the one they were beginning to tax were those that were integrated peacefully in the imperium with one of the promises being that they wouldn't be taxed which mean that those that were outright conquered were already paying taxes.
 
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Can I get a citation for the idea that the Imperium prior to the horus heresy collected taxes and had access to more forge worlds than just Mars (when Mars would have been cut off from all the other forge worlds until slaneesh's birth calmed the warp storms just like everyone else in sol and thus hadn't been in contact with any of them for like 5k years)?
 
Tell me you didn't read any wh40k book without telling it outright.
The orks are an out of control bioweapon from 60 millions years ago. They are the threat the galaxy.
And beside if you leave them "unprovoked" you get The Beast(War planetoid, Primarchs orks, etc...)
They are a bioweapon from 60 million years ago - doing exactly what they are meant to do, destroy threats to the Old Ones. That the Old Ones are long gone is irrelevant. Unprovoked they proliferate, fight amongst themselves, generally bide their time. They are designed to be self-replicating, an ecosystem lying... not dormant, even 'feral' orks are quite violent, but no threat to anything on the scale of the galaxy.
When something makes waves, however, their psychic gestalt grows more powerful and aggressive, until it eventually unleashes the full fury of the Old One's knowledge. That is what the Krork are.

Moreover the one they were beginning to tax were those that were integrated peacefully in the imperium with one of the promises being that they wouldn't be taxed which mean that those that were outright conquered were already paying taxes.

Can I get a citation for the idea that the Imperium prior to the horus heresy collected taxes and had access to more forge worlds than just Mars (when Mars would have been cut off from all the other forge worlds until slaneesh's birth calmed the warp storms just like everyone else in sol and thus hadn't been in contact with any of them for like 5k years)?
Also, like, if they wanted to prepare for war against the Krork, conquering the galaxy and not imposing taxes is an odd way to do it?

Like, at best the Emperor didn't even try the 'Hey, Very Bad Thing happening, we're going to die if you don't help me fight it'. No. Instead, he put all his effort into destroying anyone that could resist.
 
Can I get a citation for the idea that the Imperium prior to the horus heresy collected taxes and had access to more forge worlds than just Mars (when Mars would have been cut off from all the other forge worlds until slaneesh's birth calmed the warp storms just like everyone else in sol and thus hadn't been in contact with any of them for like 5k years)?
Quoting the wiki with sources:
The Treaty of Mars granted political autonomy to the Mechanicum of Mars and its Forge Worlds scattered across the galaxy as well as an exception to the Imperial Truth so that the Cult Mechanicus' adherents could continue to practice their faith.
Despite the difficulties with Warp travel during that period as massive Warp Storms consumed the galaxy during the gestation of the Chaos God Slaanesh in the Immaterium and the loss of Mars' original Thrall-Navigators, several interstellar expeditions were able to make their way across the galaxy, either using the Warp during a period when there were few storms or travelling at sub-light speeds in realspace.

Hundreds of Cult Mechanicus colonies were settled across the galaxy spreading their faith into every corner of human-settled space.
  • Imperial Armour - The Horus Heresy - Book One: Betrayal (Forge World Series) by Alan Bligh, pp. 17-19
  • Titan Legions Rulebook (1st Edition), pp. 9-11
  • Warhammer 40,000: Rulebook (6th Edition), pg. 402
  • Warhammer 40,000: Rulebook (4th Edition), pp. 98-110
  • White Dwarf 178 (UK), "The Titan Legions" by Rick Priestley
  • Mechanicum (Novel) by Graham McNeill, pp. 29, 228, 317
Horus also disagreed with many of the decrees passed by the newly established Council of Terra, a ruling body of Imperial nobles and bureaucrats, which were intended to shift the burden of taxation and administration onto the newly-conquered Imperial Compliant worlds.
  • The Horus Heresy Betrayal - Book One by Alan Bligh, pp. 22-25, 29, 40-41, 44, 47-51, 55, 64, 66-70, 78-83, 244-247
Burden of taxation imply previous taxation.
They are designed to be self-replicating, an ecosystem lying... not dormant, even 'feral' orks are quite violent, but no threat to anything on the scale of the galaxy.
When something makes waves, however, their psychic gestalt grows more powerful and aggressive, until it eventually unleashes the full fury of the Old One's knowledge. That is what the Krork are.
That's a nice argument, why don't you back it up with a source.
It is mentioned in all Eldar Codexes that the Eldar Empire were regularly purging orks in the entire galaxy before they became a threat.
 
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Staff Notice: Please refrain from literally trying to justify fascism apologia. That's very much not appropriate either in this thread or on the site for that matter.
Literally the whole post.

"This fascist empire was justified, actually" is an apology of fascism, prima facie.

If you can't grok that please vacate the thread.
Tell me you didn't read the post without telling it outright.
The meaning of my post was "The fascist empire had a reason to be fascist actually". or "Sure the firemen broke you door, and their fire-hose knocked down the bone china. But thanks to them, you still got a house"
If you can't grok that please vacate the thread.
No.
 
Which is by definition apologia.
So telling the treaty of Versailles was a reason of the Nazi rise to power is Nazi apologia ?

Edit: Maybe it is the word i used that is not what i thought it mean. Let me reformulate: The meaning of my post was "Circumstances made the fascist empire, fascist actually"

Edit 2: Beside the 30k Imperium was not fascist it was warlordist since fascism imply a state apparatus and there simply wasn't any coherent one before the end of the Great Crusade.
Malcador trying to create a coherent state apparatus is one of the reason of the Horus Heresy and the descent of the 40k imperium into fascism.

So let me correct my sentence one more time: "Circumstances made the Warlord a Warlord".
 
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So let me correct my sentence one more time: "Circumstances made the Warlord a Warlord".

Do you know why there aren't many warlords left in the world nowadays? It's because modern states absolutly clown on warlord clans in every single way in terms of capacity to project force.

Dictatorships are demonstrably and infamously dysfunctional compared to more representative forms of government. For a pertinent example in modern politics, have a look at the quality of Russia's military.

The Emperor did not "have to" be an imperialist warlord to improve humanities response to the various threats of the galaxy, he outright crippled the potential response of humanity because of his hubris and deep-seated need to be "in charge".
 
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The Rangdan were kicking the imperium ass hard enough that multiple legions of astartes were savaged
As far as I know, the Rangdan were sitting off in some corner of the galaxy being vaguely evil but not particularly expansionist, until the Imperials found them and immediately invaded.

In fact, the Imperium explicitly did not do this to contain Rangdan expansion. They mistakenly thought the Rangdan only lived in one very small area, which they proceeded to destroy.

Subsequently:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IviScOUgPpQ
 
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So telling the treaty of Versailles was a reason of the Nazi rise to power is Nazi apologia ?
Saying that the Treaty of Versailles would have destroyed Germany if the Nazis hadn't risen to power and that the Nazis were forced to rise to power to prevent that would be apologia. "The Treaty of Versailles provided the Nazis an opportunity to seize power that they exploited to the detriment of all" would be less apologetic and less like what you wrote.
 
I've been exposed to 40k content on and off for many, many years and I believe this is the first time I've ever seen someone claim the Big E launched the crusade to contain orks.

And that's why they decided to blow up the Interex and a thousand other polities who probably would've served as a better buffer against orks than the charred ruins which were instead left in the crusade's wake.

sure...
 
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It's the kind of lie a warlord would tell to convince their soldiers why the war was "necessary": Only the glorious Empire has the power to resist The Enemy, so anyone else who isn't controlled by The Empire has to be conqured. For their own protection, of course. Pay no attention to the fields of corpses we left in our "protection" efforts.

The Emperor lied.
 
I've been exposed to 40k content on and off for many, many years and I believe this is the first time I've ever seen someone claim the Big E launched the crusade to contain orks.

And that's why they decided to blow up the Interex and a thousand other polities who probably would've served as a better buffer against orks than the charred ruins which were instead left in the crusade's wake.

sure...

Look, it got a little out of hand. Everyone made mistakes. The important thing is to move forward. With a politicial with experience. Like the emperor.
 
It's the kind of lie a warlord would tell to convince their soldiers why the war was "necessary": Only the glorious Empire has the power to resist The Enemy, so anyone else who isn't controlled by The Empire has to be conqured. For their own protection, of course. Pay no attention to the fields of corpses we left in our "protection" efforts.

The Emperor lied.
Did he even make any such claim?

As I understand, the Emperor's big goals were famously:
-More power for me
-?
 
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