Remove ads

Box-Chan in WH40k thread

Also I forgot that if this offers non-warp FTL, you can shut down the astronomicon and stop drawing the Tyranids to the galaxy.
Derpmind said:
Alt universe idea: The Emperor doesn't die and get stuck on the Golden Toilet Throne. 40,000 years later, the Imperium is still a grimdark shithole.

So what happens when many people miss the sardonic tone, don't have the context to understand the historical similarities, and just buy into the surface level of 'big men in big armor with big guns'? And then some of them go on to become writers of 40k themselves? :thonk:
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Modern 40k and even more contraditory nonsense.
 
Last edited:
Cadis said:
Also I forgot that if this offers non-warp FTL, you can shut down the astronomicon and stop drawing the Tyranids to the galaxy.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Box-chan has ships that can take advantage of the warp gates between systems, which I think is actually something you have to build for specifically (as indicated by there being light craft tenders)? But it's meant to be the one actually available in the quest, and we still have no idea how to build the gates themselves.
 
Cadis said:
Also I forgot that if this offers non-warp FTL, you can shut down the astronomicon and stop drawing the Tyranids to the galaxy.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well yes and no. It work point-to-point(You can use Gate 1 to go to Gate 2, and vice-versa but you can't use Gate 1 to go to Gate 3) and thus you need to spend a lot of time travelling between multiple gate in a solar system.
They absolutely would be a game changer in conjunction with warp travel to travel to "Gated" system: You put four gate inside each Segmentum connecting to the others and you just divided the time necessary to travel the Imperium from 40 to 4 year.
You put a gate into each sector leading to the "segmentum node" and the time to travel to anywhere is reduced to a maximum of three months.

The Gate would cause the navigators to have a fit: The only way for the Imperium warp travel to be quick and reliable is to hire a navigator, a mutated subspecies of humanity that is only left un-exterminated because they need them.
To remind how serious the navigators could be: They regularly destroy archeotech that allow ship to warp dive as fast and reliably without navigator.
 
Cadis said:
Also I forgot that if this offers non-warp FTL, you can shut down the astronomicon and stop drawing the Tyranids to the galaxy.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
No, but also yes. In principle, sufficient development of warp drives (Tyrants Alcubierre-style warp drive, not the literal helldivers of 40k) could lead to FTL, but not currently, no. Paths of Enlightenment could certainly kick off scientific discovery again, enough to get going with developing new technologies ("Honestly, we're just backfilling the knowledge that was missing in the Holy STC!") in a few decades to a century, but it would take a long while to figure out the means of breaking past local maximum the Charters found themselves stuck in, especially as one of the critical technologies wasn't included in the Box-chan archives, and the technique itself would be buried in one of the myriad scientific papers included, made more obscure by the way that 40k uses plasma to mean something very different from real life, at least when it comes to plasma reactors.

Still, much faster warp drive was very close to being solved in-setting when Box-chan was unleashed, as close as non-Gate wormholes were. Even at slightly less than 1 c, it would a massive game changer in terms of battles and in-system access, and even at relatively low multiples of c, just having non-Immaterium FTL would obviate the need for a lot of suffering.

Also, depending on how events are massaged by the omake writer, Box-chan or nearby archeological resources could very well have access to wormhole comms, plasma warp drive, and other things that the players/other factions have yet to develop.
 
Skippy said:
A strong reading of most sources up until about, say, 4th Edition for what the Emperor was doing in the Age of Strife/early Great Crusade is that he was just another ratfucking warlord, who ratfucked his way into power faster than any of the other ratfucking ratfuckers from that era, but was otherwise indistinguishable from them. Everything else is hype and accumulated myth, the same as how King Arthur is not generally imagined today as some post-Roman warlord sitting in a damp hill fort.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Oh sure you fuck one rat and everyone ignores all your other achievements.
 
A lot of the need for ships to travel between systems is because IoM mercatilism means that there's a need to trade things that the Box can locally produce. There just isn't a need to move freighters with bulk grains or cartons of Lasguns anymore. The only things that need to move are people, military units, and maybe weird rare materials (psyker BS) that the Box can't create. Military units are less necessary to move, too, because individual worlds can now generate high level Guard-equivalent units. Not elites, but when your baseline PDF is all toting safe plasma guns and decent powered armor the need for elites drops hard.

You'd see stuff like Titans and Space Marines moving a lot, probably. Maybe Guard+ units offensively. But the need for stuff to be physically moved because the destination needs it and can't self supply just dropped by at least an order of magnitude.
 
Forgothrax said:
A lot of the need for ships to travel between systems is because IoM mercatilism means that there's a need to trade things that the Box can locally produce. There just isn't a need to move freighters with bulk grains or cartons of Lasguns anymore. The only things that need to move are people, military units, and maybe weird rare materials (psyker BS) that the Box can't create. Military units are less necessary to move, too, because individual worlds can now generate high level Guard-equivalent units. Not elites, but when your baseline PDF is all toting safe plasma guns and decent powered armor the need for elites drops hard.

You'd see stuff like Titans and Space Marines moving a lot, probably. Maybe Guard+ units offensively. But the need for stuff to be physically moved because the destination needs it and can't self supply just dropped by at least an order of magnitude.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Ships too, since ship assembly is too big for fabbers alone (even if they can make the pieces).
 
Nyvis said:
Ships too, since ship assembly is too big for fabbers alone (even if they can make the pieces).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Tools to make tools to make tools. A fabber can't spit out a ship, but it can make the yard and probably the interior fittings for the most part, barring weird warp adjacent shit. The interior systems are the parts that are most technical anyway.

I'm assuming a scenario where the Box is everywhere and there's enough radical techpriests around that the Box has designs for things, of course.
 
Forgothrax said:
Tools to make tools to make tools. A fabber can't spit out a ship, but it can make the yard and probably the interior fittings for the most part, barring weird warp adjacent shit. The interior systems are the parts that are most technical anyway.

I'm assuming a scenario where the Box is everywhere and there's enough radical techpriests around that the Box has designs for things, of course.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yeah but that's still a colossal undertaking less populated planets might not be interested in scaling up to. Yes, fabbers go exponential but you still need assembly and feedstock.
 
Amorous Intent said:
No, but also yes. In principle, sufficient development of warp drives (Tyrants Alcubierre-style warp drive, not the literal helldivers of 40k) could lead to FTL, but not currently, no. Paths of Enlightenment could certainly kick off scientific discovery again, enough to get going with developing new technologies ("Honestly, we're just backfilling the knowledge that was missing in the Holy STC!") in a few decades to a century, but it would take a long while to figure out the means of breaking past local maximum the Charters found themselves stuck in, especially as one of the critical technologies wasn't included in the Box-chan archives, and the technique itself would be buried in one of the myriad scientific papers included, made more obscure by the way that 40k uses plasma to mean something very different from real life, at least when it comes to plasma reactors.

Still, much faster warp drive was very close to being solved in-setting when Box-chan was unleashed, as close as non-Gate wormholes were. Even at slightly less than 1 c, it would a massive game changer in terms of battles and in-system access, and even at relatively low multiples of c, just having non-Immaterium FTL would obviate the need for a lot of suffering.

Also, depending on how events are massaged by the omake writer, Box-chan or nearby archeological resources could very well have access to wormhole comms, plasma warp drive, and other things that the players/other factions have yet to develop.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Don't forget that no one knows what happens when you blow up a wormhole but only that it's so messed up that even the Charters don't target wormholes. Considering how 40k is it's only going to be a matter of time until some khornate decides to hit the wormhole or a nurglite gives a warp gate an STD
 
Balmung1 said:
Don't forget that no one knows what happens when you blow up a wormhole but only that it's so messed up that even the Charters don't target wormholes. Considering how 40k is it's only going to be a matter of time until some khornate decides to hit the wormhole or a nurglite gives a warp gate an STD
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
No, no one knows what happens to the jump points, the vital twisting of spacetime that enables instantly connecting wormholes to distant star systems hundreds to tens of thousands of lightyears away. A wormhole itself will collapse and unleash a bunch of gravitational waves and promoted virtual particles in its decay. There's some speculation that the right kind of collapse will create an artificial jump point in the place of the wormhole, but jump point formation is poorly understood at the best of times.
 
Amorous Intent said:
No, no one knows what happens to the jump points, the vital twisting of spacetime that enables instantly connecting wormholes to distant star systems hundreds to tens of thousands of lightyears away. A wormhole itself will collapse and unleash a bunch of gravitational waves and promoted virtual particles in its decay. There's some speculation that the right kind of collapse will create an artificial jump point in the place of the wormhole, but jump point formation is poorly understood at the best of times.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Given the crossover, perhaps rupturing a jump point could create an opening to the realm of souls. Nowadays, it'd create an outright storm of chaos. (If there are any jump points left by this time, or people can find them again.)
 
So there's alot of talk about how much the Box would change the imperium and how fucked up the imperium is but gave me an idea for a story/question and given how this thread thinks I believe that it would be better to have feedback here than a regular 40k thread so here it goes.

Major divergence- at the start of the Unification Wars when all the territory emps controls is the Himalayas he decides to not rule as a tyrant and instead will have a democratic human and if able xeno government take the Unification War and Great Crusade in order to put an end to the Long Night and replace it with a free and democratic galaxy.

Resources- emps and this democratic government starts off with the Himilayas that contains the building blocks of the Astronomican along with some other unknown shit too. Because I'm nice they have the capability to create thunder warriors and emps has some Custodes with him with Ollanius Pius as a general. The population is small with most people living as scavengers,farmers or nomads with some mid level abominations still roaming the area. Your population is loyal and believes in the ideas of democracy. The biggest problem is the numerous warlords around you with some being subsidiary states of Ursh which is the largest power on the planet.

Emps- Emps has two choices either the government will have a Parliament or some equivalent legislative body while emps is essentially the executive branch or it's structured similar to Radiant with emps being in one of the advisor/department head roles. Either he can't rule like a dictator and he essentially just assists.

Now here are a few questions that I want to ask related to the above.

1. With these conditions how would one be able to introduce concepts like democracy and equality when most planets have lived thousands of years without even the knowledge of said concepts and only survived the Long Night by being fascist and xenophobic.

2. How can you train psykers without being cruel or undemocratic while also trying to protect people's safety and right to not be daemon food. And on the flip side how do you protect the rights of Blanks who by nature make it almost impossible to feel empathy for.

3. How do you treat and govern sapient beings modified heavily like abhumans or beastmen. Considering how some warlords old Earth specifically modified their children to be authoritarian,cruel, sociopathic and superior to baseline humanity how can you raise them in a democratic society without letting them destroy the government or the government oppressing them.

The purpose of all this is to figure how you can create a democratic and free society without making ethical mistakes. Since how do people have to sacrifice to maintain democracy and utopia while also balancing the rights all sapient and intelligent beings have
 
Balmung1 said:
Major divergence- at the start of the Unification Wars when all the territory emps controls is the Himalayas he decides to not rule as a tyrant and instead will have a democratic human and if able xeno government take the Unification War and Great Crusade in order to put an end to the Long Night and replace it with a free and democratic galaxy.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not genociding all aliens is an improvement, but "unification war" and "free and democratic" are still hard to reconcile.

Like, look at Tyrants. We love Sheol. They're the Ed to Radiant's Stede. But they're not actually in the AIC. We went halfsies on the navy, but they wanted their space for domestic governance and we respected that.

It's one thing to fight against or for particular kinds of systems, and another to have "unification" as an explicit goal of a war. That's where you get Lebensraum or Manifest Destiny shit.
Balmung1 said:
1. With these conditions how would one be able to introduce concepts like democracy and equality when most planets have lived thousands of years without even the knowledge of said concepts and only survived the Long Night by being fascist and xenophobic.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I question the starting assumption that fascism and xenophobia are the best ways to survive. Because, uh, no. That's the opposite of true. Fascism is an ouroboros. It only looks like a viable way to survive in the long term if you don't know how anything works.
 
Torgamous said:
Not genociding all aliens is an improvement, but "unification war" and "free and democratic" are still hard to reconcile.

Like, look at Tyrants. We love Sheol. They're the Ed to Radiant's Stede. But they're not actually in the AIC. We went halfsies on the navy, but they wanted their space for domestic governance and we respected that.

It's one thing to fight against or for particular kinds of systems, and another to have "unification" as an explicit goal of a war. That's where you get Lebensraum or Manifest Destiny shit.

I question the starting assumption that fascism and xenophobia are the best ways to survive. Because, uh, no. That's the opposite of true. Fascism is an ouroboros. It only looks like a viable way to survive in the long term if you don't know how anything works.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
What I meant was the analogies to both the Unification War and Great Crusade so they could theoretically do something like what you suggested. Also for the one on fascism what I meant was that a large amount of planets that survived were authoritarian but governments that responded to psykers quicker tended to survive the age of strife better because they had safeguards in place. I'm sure that their were plenty of fascist worlds that didn't respond and got destroyed when Slaaneesh was born while their democratic next door neighbor already had protocols that could train psykers or contain the ones that lost control. I'm not saying fascism and xenophobia helped those planets survived in fact I'm sure that if they weren't those they would survive better in the long run I'm saying there's a thin and blurry line between protecting everyone and oppressing them in the name of a common good.
 
So, how do you unite a galaxy of tinpot dictators and petty empires when its rather important to do that swiftly due to various huge threats?
 
Balmung1 said:
Also for the one on fascism what I meant was that a large amount of planets that survived were authoritarian but governments that responded to psykers quicker tended to survive the age of strife better because they had safeguards in place.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If you don't have a god on your side, "responding" to psykers the way fascists tend to sounds like a great way to get your shriveled little Nazi soul set on fire.
ilalthal said:
So, how do you unite a galaxy of tinpot dictators and petty empires when its rather important to do that swiftly due to various huge threats?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I feel like I've played a few games with that premise. Generally the answer is some flavor of "demonstrate that such a huge threat actually exists and that working with you will help address it." But I'm not satisfied with that answer here because I'm not satisfied with the question, so let's break this down.

1. What does a "united galaxy" look like? Would that scene in Babylon 5 where everyone shows up to tell the warring precursors to fuck off count as united? The Allies in real life World War II? Anything short of an actual empire?
2. Is the galaxy actually full of tinpot dictators and petty empires? I'm skeptical. I mean, I'm sure Imperial sources swear up and down that it was, but we know they're full of shit.
3. Is it actually important to "unite the galaxy"? There's presumably a lot of different threats in a lot of different areas. We know those areas can handle themselves without support from the other end of the galaxy, because they do that under the "united" empire of humanity, barring the occasional super special Solar unit.
4. Did the Emperor's approach actually improve the galaxy's ability to respond to these various huge threats? He and his kids wasted an astronomical amount of military hardware on...not those threats, both their own and the not-threats. They then wasted time and resources replacing institutions that had been working until they were destroyed for the crime of not buying what the Emperor was selling. And then there's the actual effectiveness of those institutions, because the 40k Imperium is not exactly a beacon of administrative efficiency and nothing I've heard about 30k makes me think it was that much better.

Overall, I'm going to say that the galaxy survived despite the Emperor's "efforts to save it", and that he'd have been responsible for its destruction if there actually had been anything so dire that victory or defeat could hinge on, for example, the participation of the Diasporex fleet.
 
Balmung1 said:
3. How do you treat and govern sapient beings modified heavily like abhumans or beastmen. Considering how some warlords old Earth specifically modified their children to be authoritarian,cruel, sociopathic and superior to baseline humanity how can you raise them in a democratic society without letting them destroy the government or the government oppressing them.

The purpose of all this is to figure how you can create a democratic and free society without making ethical mistakes. Since how do people have to sacrifice to maintain democracy and utopia while also balancing the rights all sapient and intelligent beings have
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

For the first, you respond as best as you can to their wants and needs the exact same way we should be treating the non-neutrotypical. Like, 'what if they don't think like other humans?' Is not a new question. It's a age old one, and granted, the solution of 'oppress the fuck out of them' is one that has been very popular, I'd rather not electric shock children. As for 'what if they were genetically engineered to be EVVVVVVIL?'

1. Sociopaths and like other non-neutrotypical symptoms that got used as generic substitutes for 'evil' often can be handled just fine other ways.
2. It's worth consdiering as much as any other question about 'what if we set every assuption up to support fascism' which is, not at all.


Torgamous said:
4. Did the Emperor's approach actually improve the galaxy's ability to respond to these various huge threats? He and his kids wasted an astronomical amount of military hardware on...not those threats, both their own and the not-threats. They then wasted time and resources replacing institutions that had been working until they were destroyed for the crime of not buying what the Emperor was selling. And then there's the actual effectiveness of those institutions, because the 40k Imperium is not exactly a beacon of administrative efficiency and nothing I've heard about 30k makes me think it was that much better.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Emperor. climbing in golden throne amid the near-ruins of Terra "Hooray Malcador, we saved the galaxy!"
 
Balmung1 said:
3. How do you treat and govern sapient beings modified heavily like abhumans or beastmen. Considering how some warlords old Earth specifically modified their children to be authoritarian,cruel, sociopathic and superior to baseline humanity how can you raise them in a democratic society without letting them destroy the government or the government oppressing them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
*Sasha would like to know your location.*
 
slybrarian said:
*Sasha would like to know your location.*
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The real Warhammer 40k Tyrants crossover we all need.


The real 40k content I want
Sasha: BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! ALL HAIL KORN!
Marcy: It's Khorne.
Sasha: That's what I said!
Anna: I think you said 'corn' like the food?

(Later)

ALL HAIL THE NEW CHAMPION OF KHORNE, MARCY!
Anna (somehow now a bloodthrister, still very chill): thumbs up
Sasha: HOW!?
(Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, only that it does. And Marcy has stabbed so many people)
 
Last edited:
Torgamous said:
If you don't have a god on your side, "responding" to psykers the way fascists tend to sounds like a great way to get your shriveled little Nazi soul set on fire.

I feel like I've played a few games with that premise. Generally the answer is some flavor of "demonstrate that such a huge threat actually exists and that working with you will help address it." But I'm not satisfied with that answer here because I'm not satisfied with the question, so let's break this down.

1. What does a "united galaxy" look like? Would that scene in Babylon 5 where everyone shows up to tell the warring precursors to fuck off count as united? The Allies in real life World War II? Anything short of an actual empire?
2. Is the galaxy actually full of tinpot dictators and petty empires? I'm skeptical. I mean, I'm sure Imperial sources swear up and down that it was, but we know they're full of shit.
3. Is it actually important to "unite the galaxy"? There's presumably a lot of different threats in a lot of different areas. We know those areas can handle themselves without support from the other end of the galaxy, because they do that under the "united" empire of humanity, barring the occasional super special Solar unit.
4. Did the Emperor's approach actually improve the galaxy's ability to respond to these various huge threats? He and his kids wasted an astronomical amount of military hardware on...not those threats, both their own and the not-threats. They then wasted time and resources replacing institutions that had been working until they were destroyed for the crime of not buying what the Emperor was selling. And then there's the actual effectiveness of those institutions, because the 40k Imperium is not exactly a beacon of administrative efficiency and nothing I've heard about 30k makes me think it was that much better.

Overall, I'm going to say that the galaxy survived despite the Emperor's "efforts to save it", and that he'd have been responsible for its destruction if there actually had been anything so dire that victory or defeat could hinge on, for example, the participation of the Diasporex fleet.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Alright you can criticize my arguments and ideas but I don't like being called a Nazi or having a shriveled soul. What I meant by responding was a range of options from teaching psykers how to control the warp like what Prospero and Chogoris did or find a way to kill unstable psykers if your a fascist state.

1. I honestly don't know and you make a good point since it could range between one galactic federal government or it could be galaxy where the different powers are democratic and can band together to take down threats like orks, chaos and whatever else might hurt people.

2. I honestly think it might be the opposite with imperial propoganda whitewashing how bad some governments who joined up were. Lets look at the ones we know: pre emps mars- filled with abominations before some toaster cult took over and was known to raid other planets in the solar system, Terra- Apparently it had rogue AI, Theocratic warlords, Genetically engineered dictators and God knows whatever the fuck is in the Himilayas,The Moon- Populated by a bunch of genetics experts who decided to dismiss the Imperial diplomat sent to them by turning him into a screaming pile of flesh that begged to be killed and apparently they did work for a warlord James Cardinal Tang who was considered worse than the emperor,Necromunda- was ruled by an aristocracy who later survived as one of the noble houses, Forge Worlds- all sorts of fucked before admech reunited with them,Kiavhr/Deliverance- Ruled by guilds and what sounds like a primitive version of CEO's and they had a planet just for gulags,Nuceria- ruled by aristocrats and slave owners,Colchis- slave owning theocracy before Lorgar turned it into a slave free theocracy. So there was a bunch of fucked up planets and the 500 realms were a democracy in the way 19th century Britain was a democracy.

3. As with two I think at least some level of Galactic organization is required on order to stop stuff like the Beast Wars or the Drukhari which are threats that can't be stopped alone.

4. As with the original post I said the emperor was either serving as the head of a department like research
 
"What is the abhumans are genetically modified to be evil and the Emperor has to kill them" is a ridiculous line of discussion, because the Emperor explicitly has the tech-knowledge to just... fix it.
Like, he was the number one gene-fuckery guy. He made the Primachs! He ruled the Moon, and had a bunch of Forge-Worlds! He had all the power, wealth and minions needed to just create an "Ordo of un-fucking people's genes"! He even had the total disregard for people's bodily autonomy to do so forcibly!

Balmung1 said:
2. I honestly think it might be the opposite with imperial propoganda whitewashing how bad some governments who joined up were. Lets look at the ones we know: pre emps mars- filled with abominations before some toaster cult took over and was known to raid other planets in the solar system, Terra- Apparently it had rogue AI, Theocratic warlords, Genetically engineered dictators and God knows whatever the fuck is in the Himilayas,The Moon- Populated by a bunch of genetics experts who decided to dismiss the Imperial diplomat sent to them by turning him into a screaming pile of flesh that begged to be killed and apparently they did work for a warlord James Cardinal Tang who was considered worse than the emperor,Necromunda- was ruled by an aristocracy who later survived as one of the noble houses, Forge Worlds- all sorts of fucked before admech reunited with them,Kiavhr/Deliverance- Ruled by guilds and what sounds like a primitive version of CEO's and they had a planet just for gulags,Nuceria- ruled by aristocrats and slave owners,Colchis- slave owning theocracy before Lorgar turned it into a slave free theocracy. So there was a bunch of fucked up planets and the 500 realms were a democracy in the way 19th century Britain was a democracy.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This isn't wrong. Most of the galaxy seems to be shitholes. But:
  • IIRC, the 30k books also have a pile of normal places that get conquered and oppressed (because the writers wanted to show Legions doing bad things, obviously). There absolutely were democracies, or oligarchies where life was better than in the Empire, etc.
    • IIRC the FFG RPGs had a bunch of pretty decent planets that got horrifically "reunited" by various Crusades and then turned into horrible places to live.
    • We also know that the Imperium absolutely could "re-unite" a planet without outright war. In "The Lathe Worlds", we see the AdMech do so. Now obviously it's still not great. They're peacefully subverting the existing leadership and improving the local tech level so that the feudal worlders become ferociously loyal shock troops, and IIRC they still punish criminals with becoming a Servitor even though they are a bit less evil about it than other Forge-Worlds. But there's no reason this can't be done elsewhere, beyond "it takes some time"
    • Also, "I want to turn Feudal Worlds into Imperial Worlds, bring in tech to improve lives and change society to be less oppressive" is explicitly a type of unusual, dangerous Inquisitorial Radicalism. This clearly shows that even when they "unite" you, the Imperium often doesn't actually bring you the benefits of "civilization" beyond the bare minimum needed for resource extraction.
  • "I will fix your shithole by conquering it and adding it to my own even worse shithole" is a bad solution ;)
 
Last edited:
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top