Beyond the Rift (WHF/FFXIV)

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Maugan Ra said:
With a smooth motion she pulled the knife free, turning it over in her hands. The blade was an unusual triangular shape, perfect for leaving wounds that would not easily close, and as she watched a small drop of something caustic and green seemed to well up from within the metal itself. Curious, she licked it, grimacing at the foul taste. Definitely poisoned.
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This is genuinely, absolutely, 100% peak warrior of light behaviour. When in doubt, put it in your mouth. When *not* in doubt do it anyways, to see what it tastes like.
 
Sa'kage said:
The intrigue is spreading, very spooky. Also, thought WoL was gonna have an echo moment and just causally ruin all the skaven's plan
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I need you to understand that I read this message, went "fuck", and opened up my plan document to make some changes.

(I completely forgot the echo visions thing. Somehow. Despite building a large portion of the plot around the echo's other abilities, like speaking every language.)

Queshire said:
The ship was a reconstruction created by the Seed of Destruction/Seed of Resurection (the orb). It's capable of traveling between dimensions which could explain why it was on the first, and we have experience with alien things via Ultima from Stormblood's raids to say nothing of what we experience in Endwalker. There really isn't anything in the Nier raids that are incompatible with FFXIV's mechanics even if the scale is different.
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The Nier raids are extremely funny in a kind of frustrating way if you're like me and are going into them completely blind, having never played any kind of Nier game before. Nobody explains shit, and in fact the story seems to revel in being utterly incomprehensible.

"Watch closely, humans."

*screams shrilly, falls over dead*

Cornuthaum said:
This is genuinely, absolutely, 100% peak warrior of light behaviour. When in doubt, put it in your mouth. When *not* in doubt do it anyways, to see what it tastes like.
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Fun fact in my actual plans/notes I have Elriza testing the blade by pricking her finger on it, but then I got to the relevant section when writing and somehow wrote this version instead.
 
Maugan Ra said:
The Nier raids are extremely funny in a kind of frustrating way if you're like me and are going into them completely blind, having never played any kind of Nier game before. Nobody explains shit, and in fact the story seems to revel in being utterly incomprehensible.

"Watch closely, humans."

*screams shrilly, falls over dead*
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I knooooooooow. I spent a slow day at work listening to a six hour youtube video on the complete history of Nier / Drakengard just so that I'd know what the hell was going on. =_=
 
Maugan Ra said:
The Nier raids are extremely funny in a kind of frustrating way if you're like me and are going into them completely blind, having never played any kind of Nier game before. Nobody explains shit, and in fact the story seems to revel in being utterly incomprehensible.

"Watch closely, humans."

*screams shrilly, falls over dead*
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As I put it to my friends who've actually played those games, "So this is what it's like being an NPC in someone elses game."
 
Maugan Ra said:
The Nier raids are extremely funny in a kind of frustrating way if you're like me and are going into them completely blind, having never played any kind of Nier game before. Nobody explains shit, and in fact the story seems to revel in being utterly incomprehensible.
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Not to mention it deletes itself from the FF multiverse right after the raids end.
 
My understanding is that things created whole cloth disappear. So the Paradigm Tower, 2B, 9S, Anogg, etcetera. But things made using local materials stuck around.

I also would guess that it can use local materials to replace those used in magically constructed things so it doesn't have to maintain them. This would allow it to create structures with magic, then convert them into something permanent. But this is all headcanon to try and explain something that's deliberately obtuse.

I also headcanon it hit the First because of the Flood of Light, since the final boss talks about "letting the light in," just before it transforms. I wouldn't be surprised though if there's some Nier lore disputing that.
 
I'm kinda curious that since Warhammer Fantasy's magic system is closely tied to Chaos/The Warp and that in turn is closely tied to emotions and the soul, if their magic is more related to Dynamis manipulation than the aethiric magic system of the Hydaelynians.
 
Revlid said:
Ah, I see! You are proposing a third scenario - that is to say, one you have invented entirely out of wholecloth - whereby Beastmen perform sacrificial rituals and undertake great deeds before the eyes of their dark gods, in exchange for random mundane axes and pauldrons popping straight out of the Realms of Chaos and into the forests outside of Bechafen like they're goddamn loot drops in an MMO.

The problem you are running into is that Beastmen, as a faction, are explicitly written as a parallel to the Germanic and Gallic tribes faced by the Roman Empire - or rather, to their portrayal by the Romans, who tended to depict their "barbarian" opposition either as unstoppable supermen who traded sophistication for honour and insight, as cunning wretches whose innate dishonesty could sometimes be mistaken for cleverness, or as crude savages incapable of higher thought or craft. The specific choice of portrayal flip-flopped depending on what made Rome (or the writer) look better at any given time, but we as semi-objective readers of history can clearly see that a) none of these things were true, because if they were then these people couldn't have done the things they did, b) even if one of these things was true, they can't all be true at the same time.

So Beastmen are intended to evoke the Imperial (and pop cultural) portrayals of certain ancient peoples. However, this means that Beastmen have to be able to accomplish some of the things those ancient people did, while also being described in ways that would make accomplishing those things impossible, because those portrayals were self-aggrandising Imperial propaganda that lacked any internal consistency. Beastmen are stupid and respect only strength, but also clever enough that their army rules revolve around launching ambushes that no other faction can pull off. Beastmen are crude and incapable of actual craft, but also have bespoke armour and weapons, and famously ride chariots specifically made for mutant animals. Beastmen are animalistic and barely even possess a real language, except they do have a language, and by the way here's the alphabet complete with a writing system, and also they seem to be quite commonly multilingual.

You are relying on the Sigmarite Empire's portrayal of Beastmen to be the full and complete truth. This will never make any sense, because it is based on real-life Imperial portrayals of barbarians, which also never made any sense.

You also seem to be referencing the model design of Tzaangors? These were released for Warhammer Age of Sigmar, and exist in an entirely different setting as part of an entirely different culture. There's never been a Warhammer Fantasy Tzaangor design that wasn't just "Blue Bestigors".
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We have images from Warhammer of Gor's dedicated to Tzennch which is what a Tzaangor is not just the all Bird headed group from Age of Sigmar who are both mentioned to have in the lore and shown to have equipment that looks better made then "regular" Beastmen

The Beastmen also use what is called the Dark tongue which is a language that is used by all the chaos factions although they each put their own spin on it and it is rare for regular Beastmen to be seen using a broken form of Riekspiel. The axes you see the Regular Gor's using sometimes don't look all that different from the ones used By Norscan Chaos Marauders and Chaos Warriors though they are often worse made. The Chariots they use are not specially made for the tuskgors or their even more mutated cousins they use to pull them but ramshackle contraptions each unique in itself that are more effective because of the monsters they get to pull them then how well made they are. They are also not the only faction with rules or ways to ambush their enemies and things like the Beastpaths are things of Tainted magical creation with Chaos energies from the Realms of Chaos.

We also have evidence they they trade with and steal from the Chaos factions so combine that with their hatred of Building much and their Chaos given hate of Civilization I don't thing it's going to far to say that they don't have regular Blacksmith shops near their heardstones. The axes that you guys have shown images for are some of the better ones shown on Beastmen but we also see ones of a much poorer make but that is not the main point of the argument.

I don't get why you want to throw out the Cannon for the Beastmen when it's not just Sigmar's Empire that says those things about the Beastmen but the Dwai, the Elves and everyone else. The Beastmen see themselves as the true Children of Chaos and want to see the Worlds Civilizations destroyed not build their own. They are smart then they given credit for in some ways but they have no desire to build up the kind of infrastructure you seem to be suggesting they actually do.

Havocfett said:
Quick Q: have you ever seen a Beastman tabletop model???
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I have and tell me that shields that are barely held together and axes that look chipped and rusty and that the spike maces and curved swords that look similar to the ones Orcs use are as well made as the ones we see on the human factions let alone the dwarfs and Elves. In mean scraps of Chainmail placed around the boost does not suggest that the Gor had a full Chainmail Huberk made for him.

Imrix said:
No they don't. If this were just an issue of Beastlords and Bestigors, you could maybe argue that they're getting them as gifts - nothing in the books states or implies this, so you're just as much making up answers as me and Revlid, but you could. But it's not just Beastlords and Bestigors. I've asked people twice now to look at the models and the art, and I am no longer asking.

These are regular gors. The unglamorous footsoldiers of the beastmen, Chaos' disfavoured, taken-for-granted children. We can presume they're in the Empire's forests, because that's where the narrative spotlight of the game usually is. Where are they getting giant axes (far too big to be logging axes, and the wrong shape besides), and curved swords, and helm-plates fitted to a goatman's skull? Nobody in the Empire's army is using this kind of stuff. It doesn't look like orc gear either, too angular and square.

Games Workshop are no strangers to the visual lanaguage of factions using gear that was looted from other factions. Ogre Maneaters aren't a new idea, giants have been wearing human-sized shields as a patchy form of scale mail for a good while, and over in 40k the Orks have been looting Leman Russ tanks since donkey's years. If they wanted to make beastmen look like they use looted gear, they could. But nobody in this geographic area makes gear like this, sized and shaped for seven foot tall 'roided out goatmen. The books say they're looting it, but this is nonsense, there's nobody for them to loot it from. The books are wrong.

The only answer that makes sense is that beastmen make their own gear, and this idea that they're too stupid to make anything and steal it all is a pervasive slander by settled peoples like the Empire - a slander that has been aimed at nomads as far back as Greeks and Romans hissing that the nomads they contended with lived entirely by theft and plunder. It wasn't true there, it isn't true here, it simply cannot be.
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So they can't loot shit from Greenskins even though some of their stuff looks a lot like Orc stuff with the Axes being chipped at the Blade edge in similar places and they can't get stuff from Chaos Factions even though Chaos Marauders use similar looking axes and and spiked mace. I don't get why you think they have this giant metal working system when creating the infrastructure need for they in anathema to what they are. I also did not say that they are incapable of working metal just that then can't work it to the same degree as the humans of other species can. Taking stuff from their enemies and then remaking it to a degree that it suits their purposes make a good deal of since to me for some of their stuff at least.
 
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If anything, the skaven are just gonna seem really sloppy for the Eorzians. Most of the weird tech stuff they see from Garleans and Ruins has a tendency to actually fully work...unlike the Skaven's more...uh, dubious methods.

"It's just like the garleans cybernetic droids..except if it randomly exploded sometime"

Probaly gonna lead to them underestimating them a fair bit..untill they realize the sheer size of the underempire.
 
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Nealend said:
I'm kinda curious that since Warhammer Fantasy's magic system is closely tied to Chaos/The Warp and that in turn is closely tied to emotions and the soul, if their magic is more related to Dynamis manipulation than the aethiric magic system of the Hydaelynians.
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You're importing 40k into Fantasy again. The two are not always the same.
 
Stewart9 said:
We have images from Warhammer of Gor's dedicated to Tzennch which is what a Tzaangor is not just the all Bird headed group from Age of Sigmar who are both mentioned to have in the lore and shown to have equipment that looks better made then "regular" Beastmen
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Oh? Really? As far as I'm aware, we have exactly two pieces of artwork depicting a Tzeentch-aligned Gor for Warhammer Fantasy. One is from 2003's Warhammer Armies: Beasts of Chaos, and depicts a mutated Gor with feathers, twisted horns, a third eye, and equipment that is not noticeably different from the standard Beastmen wargear, aside from being decorated with Tzeentch's symbols. The other is from 1990's Realms of Chaos: Lost and the Damned, and depicts a Beastman in scale armour with an ornate helmet - much like all the other elite Beastmen depicted in that book, such as the Khorne-aligned Gor with the vaguely Scythian armour, the Nurgle-aligned Gor in full plate, and so on.

These two books are also the only sources of lore that I'm aware of for WHFB Tzaangors (though 2010's Warhammer Armies: Beastmen has a sidebar which repeats some of the same information without using the word "Tzaangor"). Neither make any mention of these Gors being better-equipped than usual, much less of them having purple loot drops pop in from the Realm of Chaos. Instead, both focus on the bright colours and exotic patterns of their fur, the size and convoluted shape or strange appearance of their horns, and the occasional development of feathers or bird-like wattles.

I may very well be wrong! Feel free to clarify your source for the bolded statement.

Stewart9 said:
The Beastmen also use what is called the Dark tongue which is a language that is used by all the chaos factions although they each put their own spin on it and it is rare for regular Beastmen to be seen using a broken form of Riekspiel. The axes you see the Regular Gor's using sometimes don't look all that different from the ones used By Norscan Chaos Marauders and Chaos Warriors though they are often worse made. The Chariots they use are not specially made for the tuskgors or their even more mutated cousins they use to pull them but ramshackle contraptions each unique in itself that are more effective because of the monsters they get to pull them then how well made they are. They are also not the only faction with rules or ways to ambush their enemies and things like the Beastpaths are things of Tainted magical creation with Chaos energies from the Realms of Chaos.
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This whole paragraph feels like a fever dream, I'll be honest. Half the time you're just arguing against yourself. Let's go down the list.
  • Beastmen don't have their own language... except that you note they have their own distinct version of "the Dark Tongue", which I guess doesn't count because reasons? What's the point you're trying to make here?
  • Gor axes... look like axes, well observed! They don't actually bear much of a resemblance to Marauder axes specifically, except inasmuch as they're both axes. Not sure where you're getting that from. I'm also not sure what you'd be trying to suggest even if they did resemble each other - are you trying to imply that thousands upon thousands of Gor axes are shipped into the forests of the Empire every year by way of Norscan longboat, crafted by Norse blacksmiths who go out of their way to make them look different from Norse axes and more like they'd been crafted by Beastmen, in order to ensure plausible deniability?
  • Beastmen chariots aren't made specifically for their burden-beasts, according to you, because they're "each unique". That sure sounds to me like they've been made specifically for their burden-beasts!
  • Beastmen "are not the only faction with rules or ways to ambush their enemies", is a statement that is true in the sense that other factions usually have a single unit of scouts or tunnelling Dwarf Miners who can pop out of the backrow to cause trouble. Beastmen - as my statement indicated - had an entire army mechanic rooted in ambushes, which no-one else did. Their ability to pull off cunning ambushes was a huge part of their WHFB army design, as well as their faction identity, and is repeatedly hammered in through their lore.
Also, "beast-paths" (hyphenated, no cap) are literally just fucking roads. Warhammer: Total War makes them into magical Chaos-provided teleportation routes as a game mechanic, but the 2010 army book is very clear that these are just common pathways and roads carved out by the Beastmen tribes over millennia, running down common routes of passage they take through the deep forest. I don't mind arguing against you, but it'd feel a lot less like a waste of time if you'd ever opened an actual book instead of skimming fan wikis.

I'm going to return to the Tuskgor Chariots for a moment, because they perfectly sum up the problem with your reading (to use a generous description) of Beastmen. Yes, the lore describes these as ramshackle constructions put together with little finesse, which draw most of their effectiveness from the powerful creatures pulling them. Newsflash, a chariot that can survive being pulled into combat by a massively powerful beast has to be a pretty solidly-build chariot! Either the chariot's absolute dogshit and the Tuskgors are just massively powerful - in which case, the chariot would fall apart because it's being put under incredible strain - or the flavour text is describing an Imperial perspective and the chariots are actually pretty goddamn sturdy in order to withstand being pulled by Tuskgors. It's got to be one of the two!

(the phrase "the sheer weight of the chariot is often enough to inflict terrible damage in its own right" is used, to explain why these are effective despite their lack of "finesse" and "true craftsmanship", which makes me wonder what we're supposed to think regular chariots do to cause impact hits - sick wheelies?)

The 2010 book expands on this, and tries to buttress the former interpretation by implying that these chariots might sometimes shatter on impact. Except that we know this isn't the case, because a) these are said to be ridden by the elite warriors of a warherd, who are unlikely to jockey for the chance to die in a humiliating deathtrap that falls apart at top speeds mid-fight, b) literally no story or other lore in the book, which describes whole armies of chariot-riding Beastmen, make any mention of these war machines just coming to bits on the charge, c) directly below that is a stat-block for a chariot which very obviously doesn't just shatter on impact, ever.

Hell, the very same entry now also notes that they're often used after the battle to cart away plunder and slaves, which sounds like a great way to use a status symbol, like something you wouldn't see if they just fucking fell apart due to shitty construction, and also just like... regular utility wagons. That armies and societies have.

People with reading comprehension look at these contradictions and try to make sense of them, in a way that results in a richer setting. You don't, and that's why each of these parallel conversations you're having consists of you regurgitating some half-true trivia you plucked off a Total Warhammer forum, other people pointing out that this patently cannot be the whole truth because of how reality works, and you entering a logic loop error out of sheer inability to independently assess information.

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Stewart9 said:
You actually got a laugh out of me with that but you you do know that most Beastmen gear is a haphazard thrown together collection that only sometimes fits them and that the stuff you could say was made for them could come from the Chaos Gods considering for example that Chaos Warrior armor is a unique "Gift" each Warrior gets from the Gods. I could easily see the Bestigors getting some of their equipment by way of Blessings of the Dark Gods. Regular Beastmen Gors standout for the poor quality of their gear which is why those dedicated to Tzeentch standout for having swords and axes that look they had actually skill put into them or a unearthly elegance.
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Incidentally, when I cracked open the 2010 Beastmen army book to check your sources - bold of me to assume you had any, I know - I stumbled almost immediately on this line, tucked away in the obscure corner of page nine of the goddamn book:
The warherds lack the resplendent weapons and baroque armour of the human servants of the Chaos Gods, for the Beastmen already belong to the Ruinous Powers and the gods have no need to bargain such trinkets in exchange for their souls.
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Wow! I'm actually quite annoyed that I wasted so much time on someone too lazy to read the first ten pages of the book they're arguing about.
 
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Nealend said:
No I'm pulling directly from the Warhammer Fantasy wiki about this stuff and theorizing. I'll admit that it could be the wiki is wrong or outdated if Games Workshop has changed things but it looks like the lore is still that the Realm of Chaos is created by the energy and emotions of living beings.
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Given basically every element of that page has a "needs citation", I'm afraid it's someone else pulling from 40k and writing the article. I mean, they literally say it's the warp in the opening blurb.
 
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