[X] The importance and justice of centralization and bureaucratization, and its lack of danger for these men and their interests.
[X] The filial piety of Kiralo towards his father, and the possibility of rewards stretching even beyond whatever time the Gods choose for Kuojah to pass beyond the stream of life.
The centralisation is a concern specifically mentioned in the post, so it honestly seems like a no-brainer to me.
For the sake of my sanity, I'm going to declare that Agriculture wins because it was the first tie-breaking vote. Sorry to DBB
It just keeps on tying itself up. I might not get it started until tomorrow, since I'm currently talking to someone with training in economics for this.
So if something does change by then, then... it changes? If that makes sense?
For the sake of my sanity, I'm going to declare that Agriculture wins because it was the first tie-breaking vote. Sorry to DBB
It just keeps on tying itself up. I might not get it started until tomorrow, since I'm currently talking to someone with training in economics for this.
So if something does change by then, then... it changes? If that makes sense?
[X] The importance and justice of centralization and bureaucratization, and its lack of danger for these men and their interests.
[X] The filial piety of Kiralo towards his father, and the possibility of rewards stretching even beyond whatever time the Gods choose for Kuojah to pass beyond the stream of life.
[X] The importance and justice of centralization and bureaucratization, and its lack of danger for these men and their interests.
[X] The filial piety of Kiralo towards his father, and the possibility of rewards stretching even beyond whatever time the Gods choose for Kuojah to pass beyond the stream of life.
[X] The importance and justice of centralization and bureaucratization, and its lack of danger for these men and their interests.
[X] The filial piety of Kiralo towards his father, and the possibility of rewards stretching even beyond whatever time the Gods choose for Kuojah to pass beyond the stream of life.
"We are all men who prefer peace here," Kiralo said. "So let us talk no more of war. You may think I am different, but isn't it said that the most just reason for war is to restore peace? I agree. So, let's not talk of conflict and violence, when it is the truth that what matters most is the maintenance of peace. Cast yourself a hundred miles from the battlefield that I won, great may its gleam be. There people harvested rice, they worked the soil, they weaved in their homes, the women do… or so it is said, only for the clothing of their family."
He suspected this wasn't true. He had not looked through every village, obviously, but many villages in Csrae, at least, seemed to have plenty of women spinning and sewing, and men raising silk and all sorts of other crops. At least, there were the rudiments of spreading out and diversity, and these were what Kuojah wanted to expand and extend.
Among other things.
"Just so," Yin'lao said. "It is the natural state of things. But by disturbing the peasants, my friend risks this harmony. If he grants funds for those cultivators that practice new policies and act in certain ways, than what will happen to those who practice them? They will produce more than they need, and become entangled in merchants and commerce, and in doing so, they will lose moral worth."
"And besides," Nin said, "what of the smallest and lowliest of peasants? Their small plots of land do not have room for more than what they have, and they will sell them off, in order that they might survive, and thus their state will be degraded."
"There will be ways to deal with that, including making sure that peasants know that if they are being cheated by merchants, the provincial government will take its part. It is our job, as men of the state and men of policy, to look after the peasants' interests," Kiralo said, simply, looking at all of them. "Can you question that if wealth is brought to the peasants, they will more be able to afford morality? It is a policy quite divorced from the agriculture, in theory. In practice…" Kiralo looked at them, and Lo met his gaze and looked defiant still. "In practice, these reforms are a package, and the virtue of one is the virtue of all of them."
"Still, how do you think any of this will work?" Huang asked. "We have to be reasonable: if enriching the peasants is what we want to do, then why this way? Cs-Nin is right, the lowliest peasants will suffer while rich merchants and powerful peasants get everything!"
"No. This isn't so," Kiralo said, quietly, and this time he set aside his cup and gestured out into the garden. "Think of what you grow here, the flowers and the beauty we have here. Should not all of our country be a garden? In many places, poverty and want mean that they can grow nothing but what they choose, and how can a peasant obtain a scholar's portion of wisdom if he starves? But by reducing taxation for those that diversify and adopt new methods of agriculture, we reward those that work hard."
Kiralo smiled, "I don't know about you, but I believe that it is just to reward those who are hard-working. It is foolish to assume that poverty means one is lazy, or even bad, any more than the begging monk is immoral. And one can be rich through evil means, who doesn't agree? But if through encouraging one to work harder at their cultivation, we also bring wealth to the virtuous, or at least the diligent, then what can this be but good?"
Kiralo smiled, looking around.
"This… is a surprisingly good point," Lo said. "Though many would say that merchants are unjust and immoral by their nature."
"They are when they cheat people, but the villages need people to sell things at market, and the Imperial Court, and all those who are powerful trade and obtain: when you obtained the golden snake figurine from before the Barbarian Dynasty, did you dig it from the ground?" He turned to the host, Huang. "Or did you purchase it, Cs-Huang? Did you take goods from the unjust, and from injustice? Or was it rightful and fair?"
"He didn't cheat me, that's true," Huang admitted, shaking his head. "But what about the effect on landowners, on the gentry who are being robbed of our ownership of land."
"Land was never owned by you, it always belonged to the Emperor, and the reforms are all designed to benefit the whole, and that includes you. Take, for instance, the allowance that taxes be paid in copper cash or silver. The taxes for the land can be paid in kind, still, but think of the cut that you take, before you send it on. Do you eat millet at your table? Or do you sell it off, for silver coins with which to buy fitting food? If you were instead paid in silver, you could take the money directly and save all the trouble. The price of rice fluctuates widely." Kiralo looked around. "But when one prices it based on silver, we can control how much there is, or at least we know where the mines are, and what they produce."
Kiralo was aware that this wasn't entirely true, and that there were small hillside mines and smuggling and digging silver out of the ground at the silver hills in Xissand… he was aware, in other words, that he was not entirely wrong.
But in principle he was right. "Think of that, then. The government can more easily use the silver, and they can still take some small amount of rice tribute for the granaries and the secure system. And for the rest of the rice? It can be bought on the market for a fair price when the rice is cheap, in order that it can be released in times of famine. And to do all of this, we would need people to assess this, assess every acre, every grain. This is difficult, but that's why we're going to trust it to honest scholars and learned men."
Nin frowned. "And what if people cheat it, or refuse to pay taxes in silver? If it is all in kind…?"
"They will pay in silver, or copper cash, because they'll produce more that can be sold at the local market. It will create a group that will pay, and thus without even raising the taxes, we will increase the production. And that too is what my father no doubt intends for the rural councils."
"Who will be on these councils?" Yin'lao asked. He was a sharp scholar, and intelligent.
"Those with knowledge and wisdom who can identify the best practices of agriculture, who can then help encourage them with the help of the Imperial Seat, so that none may labor without reason when there is a smarter way to apply their hard work." Kiralo smiled and picked up his tea again, drinking deep this time.
"This tea comes from northwestern Basrat, or at least most powdered tea does, and this is not leaf tea," Kiralo said. "This cup? It comes from Xissand, I can tell because you told me about it at dinner, before the party. If we allow this Empire to be more than it was, that does not destroy what was, but builds on it."
"And next we'll open the borders to trade with barbarians?" Lo asked.
"Perhaps we will. Or perhaps we won't. In this respect, for the moment, I respect my father in not pressing the matter. I do think that controlled trade could be useful, but that is not what we are talking about now. We are discussing the spreading of wealth to allow people time to study the classics, that they might find morality and piety."
"Piety?" Lo asked.
"If people did not struggle to live, they would have more food to care for their fathers. And it is a universal truth that filial piety is the center of the state," Kiralo said, not even reacting to the depth, breadth, and nature of his hypocrisy.
"There are those who say that you dislike your father," Huang said, cannily.
Kiralo considered his answers. He sipped his tea. "And if I did? Filial piety involves obeying and respecting your father, and caring for him. I have fought a war for the Emperor and the just work of his servant, my father. I respect him now in his goals and politics, and I respect his intelligence. I know little about sericulture, and I cannot say what innovations I would make. I know peasants, though, and while they are suspicious of anything new, they are keen to take what they can, if it helps them survive. They are not fools, even if they are uneducated, and they suffer the most from the folly of those above them. Thus it should be that they benefit from the justice of those above them too, should it not? They must obey to be so blessed by the rains, and so too do I understand what my father is to me. Cs-Kuojah is a great man, a fact that I know all of you agree with. And his reforms are meant well, and well argued in his own words."
Kiralo half-bowed himself. "So if I make an error in defending them, it is my own. And if they are well-meant, and well argued, then all that remains is to implement them, and then correct for any flaws, and maintain it, even after his death, though may he live a hundred years."
That was traditional to say about one's elders when discussing their death. Kiralo himself didn't want Kuojah to live another century. "So it may be that you, and your sons, and your grandsons might yet defend and reform and improve his work, so that the Empire and its people, the souls that rely on the Emperor for justice and truth, might prosper."
Kiralo placed his hands on his knees. "And as for the reforms, what are they but a way to spread learning and light? Hereditary Governors have been around for a long time, but they concentrate power in a small number of men who are dangerous at times. So, we make the governors appointed, to set terms, with maximum years, and then we make explicit the divisions that have always been made, into smaller sub-provinces, which are also belonging to the Emperor. As all of the land does. Thus, at every level, the rule flows from the Emperor. It is rain from heaven, onto the dry, dusty lands that have instead been ruled by the caprices of traitors."
This, at least, they would agree to more easily than some. The Governor of Xissand no doubt feared losing his hereditary state, and Irit, who had agreed to some major reforms, was still hereditary, and likely would be for quite some time.
But a third of HIrand, as well as Basrat and Hari-Os, greatly reduced the number of hereditary governors, and if they were properly checked, so too their power.
But Kiralo couldn't speak to any future reforms, and it was best to take this slowly. "And in order that the markets and the people be regulated, it is necessary that there be a degree examination for those wise in the way of agriculture and law. But his further program, of inspectors, requires the measure I am sure you are weary of."
"What does he think he's doing, in proposing such slip-shod exams," Yin'lao said. "Literacy and the knowledge of a few paltry books?"
"It does not degrade the degree holder, for it is not a degree, but a license, so that those with a degree may take the high station they deserve, rather than working as mere clerks. A stronger administration needs more hands, and the traditional exams themselves will be no easier. Nor any less exclusive to those of highest character." Kiralo waved his hand. "How can one disapprove of this? And the registration of monasteries has already been accomplished, and it is long past due to create an office specifically for their inspection." Kiralo thought of other points that might draw disapproval. "What else do you think foolish?"
"How can the Empire afford it?" Huang asked.
"The land taxes can support it, and besides which, we are allowing the commutation of corvee in some cases." Kiralo spoke as if he had written the complex rules, as if he didn't share a little of the concerns. Certainly, centralization would entail new costs, but hopefully it would also provide state resources that could be used.
For one, the land in Basrat that wasn't going to the peasant directly could be distributed, or perhaps… as contrary as this was to Kuojah's ideals, sold. Some was promised to political supporters, but…
Kiralo didn't say anything.
He just argued, as the debate went down into the weeds of minor policies and slight agreements and disagreements, into areas that were not his forte, but which he held his own in. And the fact that they were quibbling over details meant he had them.
The crickets were chirping louder and louder, and he relaxed and debated until servants came out with lamps to let them talk in the utter darkness of a night in which the clouds had finally covered the moons.
He left each of them with a coin, in remembrance of the peace that had been brought by the Emperor.
*******
There was a hole in the center, so that it could be put on a chain, like with copper cash, and he'd been very careful to not portray his face, but rather a rearing horse, and two lakes, and other symbols that hinted at himself, but besides Ainin on an edge of the coin, there was no direct mention of his name.
There didn't need to be.
"It's a good coin. Solid." Yang'ah looked at it and then looked at him, his bushy eyebrows lifting upwards into a thatched mass of hair. The man talked like he was from northern Xissand, with a real burr which, despite knowing the official form of Csiritan, still made him hard to understand.
He served dishes of goose and berries over brown rice, and strange egg dishes that left Kiralo glad he didn't live in Xissand. Though of course, most of the old man's life had been spent in Csrae, and as far as Kiralo knew, his nephews were all men of Csrae in every sense.
Kiralo looked around the banquet hall, and then back at this most important man. "Thank you, Cs-Yang'ah."
"Some wouldn't call me that. Those people are bastards."
Kiralo didn't respond that he was a bastard as well, in fact and not merely whatever character he wished to impute. "You are due respect," Kiralo said. "I know you've been paying attention to what has been happening in the Empire."
"More chaos than in past days. The old ways are changing into the new ways, and I don't like it. I knew where I stood in the old game, even if it wasn't very high." Yang'ah. "But you're here to ask for my help, for I have something that you need."
"What is that?"
"Contacts! When a merchant ships in down the Azi, past Irit and then even further down into Nestirin, that den of ancient magic, some of those people know me. Grain, silk, especially from Nestirin's southern region, Da Andong, these things are things you value. That is the nature of people. You want me to give you advice. Well, let me tell you it, young man."
Kiralo didn't respond, just listened.
"Waterways. You can't just improve the roads, if you don't also dredge canals. But that takes corvee labor or a lot of money. More money than horses have shit."
Kiralo tried to smile at that simile, and say, "I can pass this on."
"Of course you can. You have ears, and you have a mouth. That's enough for getting on with. I'll keep the coin, and remember your victory, Cs-Kiralo. And if you want a deal, I can get you one. I mostly serve more… basic needs, but I know of someone, if Southlander women are your taste." He paused, and shook your head. "Though it's just a rumor."
The army didn't believe the rumor, but that didn't mean it hadn't spread among others. Great, just great. And it had spread. At least it didn't seem to be too hostile, at least at the moment. "And that's all it is."
"So the girl in question…?"
"An amazing spirit shaman who fought with our side."
"Really? A girl?" he asked, incredulously. "How?"
"I assume her family taught her, though she has natural brilliance," Kiralo said, with a shrug. "It happens. She's apparently seeking my help with something, and--"
"Ah, and fighting a battle is one way to get it."
"Probably," Kiralo said. "I don't know too much about her goals," he lied. "But I think she can be trusted at least to see her own interests. And my own."
"Yeah, yeah. I'm not much of one for spirits, though I have a few, guarding the counting house."
"What works, works," Kiralo said, and smiled. "The duck is excellent."
"But not the eggs, eh? Well, I don't like them either. A century? Rather too long, I think. But you're Cs-Kuojah's son, so I just assumed."
"It must be an acquired taste," Kiralo said, politely.
Yang'ah snorted, and muttered something under his breath. Then, louder, the man yelled, "Entertainment! We must entertain our guest!"
And the evening was all but wasted, after that. Or at least, wasted for further work, though before he left, he was pressed with letters for the capital, and hints at favors that could be owed.
******
Ha Ran came into the town like a storm. He was from far closer to Rerin, and yet he seemed to want to meet Kiralo, had sent a messenger ahead, panting and out of breath, to tell him that. And yet, once he was there, he seemed lost for words.
He was short, with brown hair, and a few pock-marks, but features that were in the finest tradition of Iritan nobles. Which was to say slightly pinched, and a little too arch, but neither that nor his silk robes, a proper shade of dark blue that didn't infringe at all on anything… it was all rather more put together than his spirits, which were moving about.
Some came in smells, smells of mulberry leaves, which lingered in the air. Another was a cloud of reddish gas that seemed to be trying and failing to condense. A third was some form of insect, but with far too many eyes and legs, and wings that beat constantly so fast that it was a blur.
The young man, around Kiralo's age, clearly had more skill with magic than he did. Or at least, wider tastes in spirits.
"Cs-Kiralo, it is a pleasure to meet you." He didn't sound happy, though. Or rather, he stared at Kiralo as if he had seen a ghost. "I, uh. Come with the compliments of my grandfather, Cs-Bisao, and my father as well, Cs-Hung."
"Well met. I cannot remember if I saw them in passing, but I will tell them that you looked well when I return to court. I'm sure they'll be solicitous for news," Kiralo said, politely, standing with his hands behind his back. He wanted to pace, or sit the man down, because he looked like a good cup of tea could help him.
Instead, Kiralo just smiled.
The man really was sweating.
"I've… been told that you've made a good impression as an expert in… policy?"
"Yes?"
"Then you must know that sheep, and goats for that matter, are very different from other animals, and from other plots of land. They cannot be diversified, and it is unfair to…" He swallowed, trying to master himself, clearly not having been seasoned in a courtly setting. He had the proper accent, and no doubt he was well-learned, as any son of such an ancient lineage, tracing back eight-hundred years, would be.
"Yes?"
"To take the land away from people who have acted with honor and obedience for a long time."
KIralo didn't mention that Lineage Ulis, greatly honored but hardly wealthy or powerful, had bent the knee to Southlander Emperors as well, though no doubt someone more stuck on history would have harped on that point. Instead, he looked at this young man, and then considered travel times.
He was almost back at the capital, yet it could be possible that this young man was sent. "It's not being taken."
"Ownership is, or so I'm told, and I can't. I mean, surely you understand that goats are different."
"You seem just the man who might sit on an agricultural council."
"Goats aren't agriculture."
"It includes all of that," Kiralo said, feeling as if Hao Ran was being intentionally dense. Or perhaps not. Perhaps he was just trotting out arguments as he thought of them.
"Maybe so. Ultimately, though, goats need pastureland. It isn't something that can be divided, just like sheep do… and just like your horses do. I've… I've gotten permission, if you wish, for something." Hao Ran paused, collecting himself. "I know you are a Rassit, a man on horseback, and the pastures, some of them that we own, can be used to raise horses. An estate away from it all. Far from the palace, but somewhere to go when you wish to take a break from the complexities of politics. Your father is known to do so, at least every so often… though it's said that the entire bureaucracy follows him in train."
Kiralo nodded. His father rarely took a break at all, and when he did, he rarely went out of Csrae. But he owned a lot of property, most of it in Irit, Csrae, and small chunks scattered elsewhere. But it was all notional. To him, the country manors were places that he selected honest men to administer for the good of the area, and profits that he could then spend on further editions of important works, and for that matter, government business.
That was well known. But it was true he sometimes visited, for short periods at least.
His mother talked about the time he'd uprooted the entire Imperial Palace City to air it out after a rash of the plague had left hundreds dead, including the Emperor.
"He is," Kiralo said, when it became clear that the young man wasn't going to say anything.
"Well, would you perhaps want to be… gifted them? As a mark of your great victory, since I know you are a more active man than your father."
"Cs-Kuojah is quite old," Kiralo said, mildly.
"Yes, yes. But think of it. It's lovely ground, and the peasants are relatively quiet and affable, and easy to deal with. We haven't had banditry problems in a decade."
"How have you helped with that?" Kiralo asked.
"A few swift, hard examples, but more than that, care. If the peasants are not pressed and poor, they will be less likely to support bandits, and when you allow them some of the wool--"
"What do they use wool for?"
"Not clothing, that's Rerin. But they work it to create wool cuffs, because a few local gentry in the town down-country take it as a fashion of theirs to wear fine woolen cuffs."
How bizarre, Kiralo thought.
How bizarre, too, that he was so clearly being offered a bribe. Take the land, and in exchange, find a way to make sure that reforms don't come to the lands of Lineage Ulis.
If he accepted, he'd be expected to do at least something to nominally hold his end of the bargain, and if he rejected, he'd… well, not make an enemy, exactly, but it would be clear where he stood… in bad ways, yes, but potentially also in good ways. He could accept and find a compromise, and it'd win him allies if he did it well, or deny and if he used it correctly? It could truly help.
Kiralo considered the young man--no younger than him, and he wondered when that would stop being the case, when he'd become old--and measured his words twice before speaking.
What does he say/do?
[] Accept the deal.
[] Reject the deal.
[] Write-in. [] Pull him aside for tea, relax and unbend him before prying out the story, if there is one, of what led to this attempt.
Argumentation Part 1:
--Diplomacy Portion: 1d100+23+5=102
--Learning Portion: 1d100+11+1 (Father's Son)+3 (Friend of the Lowly)=26, reroll because of high Diplomacy roll. 75
Argumentation 2:
--Diplomacy Portion: 1d100+23+5=125+1d100=165
--Learning Portion: 1d100+11+1 (Father's Son)+3 (Friend of the Lowly)+3 (Logistics)+5 (Crit, sometimes emotions are their own argument)=46, not nearly as good as it could be
Argumentation 3:
Diplomacy Portion 3: 110
--Learning Portion: 1d100+11+1 (Father's Son)+3 (Friend of the Lowly)+5 (Crit)=85
A Good Son: 1d100+23+10 (all you've done)-3 (Yeah, you kinda…)=78
Centralization: 61, 94, 71
-[X] The Coinage of Victory
Need: 40, Rolled: 1d100+8=84
Yang'ah: 1d100+23=28… reroll because it's 5 or under, 86
Ha Ran: 1d100+23+1+5 (???)=89, 106
A/N:And there we go. Wow, that was long, compared to what I expected.
Note, it's not necessarily actually the best option. It might not be the worst, either. It was unlocked by getting good rolls. If you'd gotten even better ones, the idea would be that it'd be visible rather than invisitext, and if you'd gotten worse rolls it wouldn't have been an option.
It's a potential opportunity, but also probably riskier than either of the other two strategies by some degree, in that this is something where rolling a Natural 6 could set in motion a chain of mistakes and bad news, even with a high modifier.
Yeah, but given the options we have:
-Take the bribe, block the reforms - This undermines the reforms because there's a pocket of special case exception everyone can cite that "you know things work perfectly fine over there" and presents constant pushback from having two systems run alongside.
-Refuse the bribe, push the reforms - This probably means he'd not be happy about and it set about finding other ways to push back the reforms.
-Offer to adjust some of the reforms - The issue here is...well we don't know what's his problem with the reforms. He's given a bunch of arguments that are quite visibly not well organized and largely sound a lot like he's parroting arguments he heard from someone else from memory.
Or:
-Try to find out what's his problem and see if we can arrive at an accomodation - If it fails...well the worst I can see is that in forcing him to think over his arguments and present his case we'd be helping him build a stronger counter-reform argument, giving us more problems in the future, while if it succeeds we can offer a compromise that everyone can accept, if not be happy with.
Yeah, but given the options we have:
-Take the bribe, block the reforms - This undermines the reforms because there's a pocket of special case exception everyone can cite that "you know things work perfectly fine over there" and presents constant pushback from having two systems run alongside.
-Refuse the bribe, push the reforms - This probably means he'd not be happy about and it set about finding other ways to push back the reforms.
-Offer to adjust some of the reforms - The issue here is...well we don't know what's his problem with the reforms. He's given a bunch of arguments that are quite visibly not well organized and largely sound a lot like he's parroting arguments he heard from someone else from memory.
Or:
-Try to find out what's his problem and see if we can arrive at an accomodation - If it fails...well the worst I can see is that in forcing him to think over his arguments and present his case we'd be helping him build a stronger counter-reform argument, giving us more problems in the future, while if it succeeds we can offer a compromise that everyone can accept, if not be happy with.
His points are not well organized, though it's possible he might have at least something of a point with the ownership of pastureland. He might, at least, have something approaching a point. Of course, you could just have it owned in common by the village, but as far as it goes, unlike with normal farmers, it's possessions (the sheep) not land that is their most prized asset.
[X] Pull him aside for tea, relax and unbend him before prying out the story, if there is one, of what led to this attempt.
Figuring out what's wrong isn't just useful in this instance but also potentially in future.
