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Avengers: Age of Ultron discussion thread

Mutton said:
The point I'm making is that when you put Joss Whedon on a production, there are certain expectations about how it's going to play out. It's like watching Ip Man and wondering why they keep having badass fight scenes.

I wish that Joss Whedon was better at his job, but it's kind of a silly thing to kvetch about; it so much as warns you about it on the tin
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How is pointing out a major flaw in the writing and directing a silly thing to kvetch about?
 
VolantRedX said:
How is pointing out a major flaw in the writing and directing a silly thing to kvetch about?
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I think complaining about JJ Abrams doing all the lens flares is also a waste of oxygen.

People have their distinctive styles; it's more productive to say "I wish there was a different director," which I do acknowledge that Tempera did, than go on about the equivalent of saying "American superheroes are stupid, the Avengers should have been the old British show."

It's a huge flaw in his work, but it isn't one he is showing any inclination to change. He's serving Big Macs and is happy with that business model. I'd love for him to spruce up somewhat but that would be like my local McD's serving gourmet burgers
 
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Mutton said:
It's a huge flaw in his work, but it isn't one he is showing any inclination to change. He's serving Big Macs and is happy with that business model. I'd love for him to spruce up somewhat but that would be like my local McD's serving gourmet burgers
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Here's the thing though, criticism isn't about demanding that McDonalds make gourmet burgers. It's about explaining what about Big Macs you don't like and telling others what you'd prefer to eat. I don't expect Joss Whedon to look at my posts and change his style overnight. I'm just explaining why I think his burgers suck.
 
VolantRedX said:
Here's the thing though, criticism isn't about demanding that McDonalds make gourmet burgers. It's about explaining what about Big Macs you don't like and telling others what you'd prefer to eat. I don't expect Joss Whedon to look at my posts and change his style overnight. I'm just explaining why I think his burgers suck.
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I'm not disagreeing. My argument was that this is going to happen with any Joss Whedon production. It's kind of useless to count that as a film flaw rather than a flaw of the director that we all knew was going to happen going in, and thus it's silly to say "this should be fixed" without going back to changing some of the basic structure of the film, namely who the director is.
 
Mutton said:
I'm not disagreeing. My argument was that this is going to happen with any Joss Whedon production. It's kind of useless to count that as a film flaw rather than a flaw of the director that we all knew was going to happen going in, and thus it's silly to say "this should be fixed" without going back to changing some of the basic structure of the film, namely who the director is.
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Or have an editor who can slap Joss's hands away from the keyboard when he goes overboad.
 
So something I actually really liked. It felt like Ultron was genuinely fond of Scarlet Witch, like he really did care for and about her.

Was a nice character moment for a villain who too often lost himself within the script.
 
VolantRedX said:
That's my issue. Loki wasn't menacing, and that's fine, but just like it's true that not every villain has to be a menacing dark shadow, not every villain should be funny and witty.
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The MCU has had plenty of menacing villains. In fact, the vast majority have been various shades of menacing. I get two films with entertaining villains and you want to take that away from me? No. I don't care. Avengers wasn't made for Volant and Tempera. It was made for me, and people like me, who like villains to be entertaining and funny and compelling and interesting rather than Darth Vader rehash number fucking infinity.

What you see as a problem I see as a virtue. You're allowed to not like it, but I am allowed to like it. So I kindly suggest you go rewatch Dark Knight Rises for your menacing quota and let me watch my spectacle pro-wrestling match.
 
Villains should be interesting characters.

The best villains in the MCU- Loki, Ultron, Kingpin, Pierce- Regardless of their menace, all of them are interesting characters
 
Aaron Peori said:
It was made for me, and people like me, who like villains to be entertaining and funny and compelling and interesting rather than Darth Vader rehash number fucking infinity.
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What does humor have to do with being entertaining, compelling, or interesting. I mean I find Red Skull a hundred times more interesting and compelling than Justin Hammer.


Aaron Peori said:
So I kindly suggest you go rewatch Dark Knight Rises for your menacing quota and let me watch my spectacle pro-wrestling match.
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Funny you should mention Pro-Wrestling because a huge part about booking matches in wrestling is making the heel seem like a real threat to the hero. A lot of that comes from them seeming like a menace. Sure they're not terrors of the world (unless their the Undertaker) but you don't want people to laugh with the heel, you don't want them to be telling jokes and being funny. Heels are either the butt of the joke, or they're just assholes that bitch at the kids and run from fair fights, always attacking when the face least expects it and trying to tear the face down. They are not jokers.
 
Aaron Peori said:
So I kindly suggest you go rewatch Dark Knight Rises for your menacing quota and let me watch my spectacle pro-wrestling match.
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I'm not saying that Avengers 3 should have the inevitable epic showdown between Thanos and the Avengers end with both sides wounded and utterly exhausted and the victor unclear when suddenly Seth Rollins Loki arrives out of nowhere, kicks Thanos in the face and steals the Gauntlet of Infinity and runs away cackling while everyone else stares dumbfounded, but it totally should definitely should not that is my worst idea ever.

(wrestling is fun you guys)
 
Omicron said:
I'm not saying that Avengers 3 should have the inevitable epic showdown between Thanos and the Avengers end with them both sides wounded and utterly exhausted and the victor unclear when suddenly Seth Rollins Loki arrives out of nowhere, kicks Thanos in the face and steals the Gauntlet of Infinity and runs away cackling while everyone else stares dumbfounded, but it totally should definitely should not that is my worst idea ever.

(wrestling is fun you guys)
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I would watch it.
 
Omicron said:
I'm not saying that Avengers 3 should have the inevitable epic showdown between Thanos and the Avengers end with them both sides wounded and utterly exhausted and the victor unclear when suddenly Seth Rollins Loki arrives out of nowhere, kicks Thanos in the face and steals the Gauntlet of Infinity and runs away cackling while everyone else stares dumbfounded, but it totally should definitely should not that is my worst idea ever.
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Well Loki did win Money in the Bank The throne of Asgard.

Oh my god how did I not see how similar their arcs are.
 
VolantRedX said:
What does humor have to do with being entertaining, compelling, or interesting. I mean I find Red Skull a hundred times more interesting and compelling than Justin Hammer.
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We must have been watching different movies because MCU Red Skull was about as entertaining as watching paint dry.

Funny you should mention Pro-Wrestling because a huge part about booking matches in wrestling is making the heel seem like a real threat to the hero.
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(laughs and laughs) No. Just, no. In some cases you have the monster heel who is threatening because he's hard to defeat, but in most cases its fairly clear the heel is weaker than the hero and can only win by cheating. One of the best heels in the business was Ric Flair and one of his biggest pops was falling over entertainingly and begging for his life.
 
Aaron Peori said:
We must have been watching different movies because MCU Red Skull was about as entertaining as watching paint dry.
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I have to point out, that this shows just how shitty Justin Hammer was.

Red Skull was a classic, "Rar I'm an Evil villain so I'm going to do bad things to good people!" Villain.

Hammer was just a dufus. With no real good villainous trait's besides, "I'm gonna get you Tony Stark! You and your Dog Toto too!"

He Wasn't funny, he wasn't menacing, and he never felt like he was really making any kind of internally consistent decisions either.
 
Aaron Peori said:
(laughs and laughs) No. Just, no. In some cases you have the monster heel who is threatening because he's hard to defeat, but in most cases its fairly clear the heel is weaker than the hero and can only win by cheating. One of the best heels in the business was Ric Flair and one of his biggest pops was falling over entertainingly and begging for his life.
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Yeah and sometimes you have R-Truth and the Miz vs The Rock and Jon Cena, where the heels never had a god damn prayer of winning. Secondly Ric Flair built to the humor. Yes his matches had moments of funny bits where he was the butt of the joke, where everyone laughed at him, but he was still NWA champ for years at a time because he made people think he was the best. He cheated to win but there was a sense that if he went toe to toe with the face, Dusty, Sting, ect it could go either way. He was a threat in the sense that he might have won fairly, and he was a heel because he cheated to ensure he won.
 
Aaron Peori said:
...

Justin Hammer wasn't the villain of that movie.
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He was the walking, arguably talking, plot device to get the real villain into a position to actually be threatening.

I liked Whiplash as a Villain, even if he was kind of stupid there in the end.

I mean, you got both Iron Man and Warmachine both at your mercy, why not call down some of your hammeroids and set them to self destruct while holding them?

But then again, he didn't have access to something like Jarvis and his multitasking ability.

Hell, back in Monaco he could have made a bomb out of the reactor he built and definately killed stark, but instead he went with the up close and personal I'ma use Electric Whips on the motherfucker!
 
I must admit that I would have liked if Hammer had not been utterly incompetent. Like, obviously he needs to not be as good as Tony Stark, but he's supposed to be a rich and influential person at the head of a powerful tech company and the way he acts in that movie makes him look too incompetent even to get that far. Seriously, the little missile failing to explode as a joke? A touch too much.
 
Seclorum said:
I liked Whiplash as a Villain, even if he was kind of stupid there in the end.

Hell, back in Monaco he could have made a bomb out of the reactor he built and definately killed stark, but instead he went with the up close and personal I'ma use Electric Whips on the motherfucker!
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That's the thing though. Vanko didn't really care about killing Stark he wanted to hurt him. I mean killing him was a nice bonus but it really wasn't what he was after.

Tony would have been screwed if Justin had been even slightly charismatic or competent.

"Vanko work for me. Give me one year and we will destroy Stark from his suits to his reputation. Then when he has nothing . . . Then you will have my permission to kill him."

Honestly I think if Hammer had been anything but an incompetent dork, looked like he could deliver on his promise, Vanko might have entertained the idea.
 
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