Ar Tonelico and * nosurge discussion thread

Index

Baughn

Healing-type writer
Location
Dublin
Translated Material for Ar tonelico
Translated Material for Surge Concerto
Game (re)translations
Language Information
Fiction
Here on SV:
In the harmonious land of ponies:
The above is woefully incomplete. Please send links.
 
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About my AT Quest, I was wondering if Elegy of Sacrifice or March of Sacrifice would be the better title?
I'd say the first sounds neater. Good choice to avoid using game-specific words in the title, incidentally - that'd limit the amount of folks who even give ch1 a read, heh.

Also had a thought that if we ever do get a PC port of AT2 (not likely anytime soon, but still), then we could really use a Vanguard Cloche mod
All the Reyvateil were in supporter roles iirc, and didn't have any melee attack animations. So you'd need to do something like make a set of new animations - alongside other stuff like title screen changes - so that the AT2 protag has Cloche's sprite, I think? Not sure AT has a big enough fandom for anyone to put in the effort.
 
All the Reyvateil were in supporter roles iirc, and didn't have any melee attack animations.
Cocona decidedly was not. In either AT2 or 3.

…I remain astonished that neither her nor her brother could admit she was one, while she actively used song magic in combat. "Cocona ball" indeed.
 
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On another, non-Elegy fanfic note, I've been thinking about a Genderswap AU sticking with AT1 for now. The catch is it's also a 'Reyvateil-Vanguard swap' AU (except Krusche obviously), Reyvateils still being female here

However, changing not just their gender but also their species, I soon thought, could carry the risk of some characters not feeling like themselves (yeah, for a Genderswap AU you want them to be different, but still want to keep the core of their character intact). Like a male Misha who doesn't have to worry about being the Star Singer anymore. You could make that a plot point though, that the current Lune heir being male and not a Reyvateil is what sets off the Viruses... then I remembered Misha's a Beta, so being born male would have to be due to someone meddling with their birth

With Jack being a Reyvateil (and we know from Lakra that Teru-Reyvateils do exist) I imagine that'd conflict with her wanting to leave the Teru, given how Reyvateils are treated in the Lower World. Though you could argue Jack wouldn't be daunted by that, or would be further motivated to go to actually do something about that. The easy thing about Misha and Jack genderswaps is that you can keep their names the same though (though Jane works for Jack, fitting the cowboy attire)

Aurica (or Aulis, which I like better than Auric because that just makes me think of Goldfinger) may be the easiest of the three AT1 Reyvateils to genderbend, given a male Aurica would still be distinct from Radolf. I can't see him being a Church knight unless he was forced into it, he'd probably prefer to be a librarian, archivist, or theologian. Instead of insecurities over being D-Class, his insecurities could be over feeling unworthy of Radolf's (Rachel's?) attention

Lynette (Lynetta? Lynda?) also wouldn't be too big a change, since there's still Reyvteils in Platina's army obviously, and the Valley Girl archetype's a pretty established one to draw from

Oof, but picturing a not only genderbent but also non-Reyateil Shurelia is not gonna be easy. I guess the easiest thing to do would be to swap roles with Leard, or make male-Shurelia a Tower Guardian AI (though the latter begs the question of who's the Origin now?) Same with Mir, where resorting to a role-swap of male-Mir being a Virus and female-Ayatane being the Mother would probably be the only way to go about it

As for how to do female Bourd (I'm thinking the name Urd actually), I was thinking of honestly making them a Reyvateil, but a 'traitor to their kind' who sold out her people for advancement

I was also wondering what weapons Vanguard Misha and Aulis would use? Misha would need something befitting a dance-fighter, while Aulis would probably use a ranged weapon to not have to get up close, or use a blunt staff or mace due to their clerical associations

So as hard as this was to brainstorm, I feel Ar Tonelico 1 is still easiest entry in the series to do this with, since genderbent AT2 and AT3 could go some really nasty places
 
Lynette (Lynetta? Lynda?) also wouldn't be too big a change, since there's still Reyvteils in Platina's army obviously, and the Valley Girl archetype's a pretty established one to draw from

Oof, but picturing a not only genderbent but also non-Reyateil Shurelia is not gonna be easy. I guess the easiest thing to do would be to swap roles with Leard, or make male-Shurelia a Tower Guardian AI (though the latter begs the question of who's the Origin now?) Same with Mir, where resorting to a role-swap of male-Mir being a Virus and female-Ayatane being the Mother would probably be the only way to go about it
Just make Lynette the Origin. This means you can still have a reasonable setup between Lynette and reyvateil-Ayatane. Lynette can't have the same issues with authority figures in that sort of context, at least in the present day, but you could still do something interesting with resentment about the pressure she's under, or feels she's under from others.
 
Hmm, the thought of Lynette now being the Origin, yeah, that's honestly too funny to pass up, with Leard I guess now taking Eleno's place

A semi-demi-serious comparison I made between the AT2 Reyvateils and the Danganronpa Rivals on Discord:

Cloche - Byakuya
Luca - Nagito
Jakuri - Kokichi

Also, thought that I probably should've gone into this a little more, rather than be all no context:

Cloche and Byakuya are probably the closest, being upper-class and elitist but with sadder backstories that explain why they're like that.
Luca and Nagito both start out cheerful and helpful, but we then get to see them being more manipulative and unhinged. The term dorodere is usually credited as being coined for Luca, and Nagito's frequently listed as one.
Kokichi constantly claims to be the Leader of an Evil Organisation, Jakuri actually was (well, if Viruses can be considered an 'organisation'). they're also both short, and like getting on the rest of the cast's nerves.

Edit: Highly doubt the similarities were intentional on DR's past, but it's a fun comparison to make
 
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And for some lore updates...

While unfortunately Trinary ended its run a few years ago and we can't even peruse an archive of its storyline now, it's notable in that it takes place in another Earth parallel to Nei's one, and alternate versions of Nei and Aya appeared on it.

The divergence point for both sisters was that their father decided to inherit the family shrine in the Trinary timeline, while in the Surge Concerto timeline he declined to do so, which is why they have different names in both: Nei Yuuki is Erica Kunimasa, while Aya Yuuki is Ayami Kunimasa in Trinary.

Here are screenshots and character artwork of how they looked in that game:

Erica:
Ayami:

In a similar note, Gust released an album of an in-universe singer called FreyMENOW titled Wishreal that contains a few songs that have lyrics written by Tsuchiya, and although they have no direct relation to EXA_PICO nor are they sung by any of the singers related to the series... let's just say the conlang employed in them and that it calls the land described by the lyrics "El-Kador" (the prototype name for Sol Ciel) leaves one wondering.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s89Eq-7DLo

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb50c0pVjTU

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVt-YaXIO1E

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J6OvEEo9xQ

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPlltS9NlJc
 
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It's a multimedia project that Gust made in collaboration with Toei Animation, which consisted of a single-cour anime series and a mobile gacha game.

The story is that in an alternate Earth in a nearby future, manifestations of the people's minds called Phenomena appear on the real world and cause disasters, leading Japan to form a team of girls called Trinary to dissolve these phenomena before they cause any major damages. In the game, we are introduced the four (later on five) girls that form Trinary by a navigator of sorts called Chiharu, who tells us that we must marry them to save their world, and we interact with them through our cellphone in a similar fashion to how we did with Ion in Ciel nosurge.

Although it has battles using units summoned via gacha, the majority of the game was VN-based, and the microtransactions were only for the gacha currency, and the dialog choices currency (which could also be obtained through farming).

I didn't manage to finish even the first part of the storyline before its servers closed up, but it had all the hallmarks of Tsuchiya's games: relationships, feelings, Diving, and such, the only exception being the music because none of the regular EXA_PICO composers or singers took part on its creation. And from what I heard, the anime diverges so much from the game that it's a wholly different thing that has the same premise and characters.
 
To bad you didn't get to finish it, it's kind of a shame parts of gaming history just disappear in to the nothing like this. Wonder if anything of it will ever be seen again.
 
The saddest part is that Tsuchiya used the mobage platform to do something that'd be hard to replicate through other media: according to reports, the second part of the story was handled similarly to a pen and paper roleplaying campaign, in which he offered players a range of choices for how the story would develop, and he would write using the choice that had the highest vote count from the players. It'd have been interesting to have been there...
 
I've been randomly speculating about a crossover between Ar Tonelico and Deus Ex, of all series, since it occurred to me that some of the more technological elements of Ar Tonelico, like a musical space elevator or virtual mind-diving, wouldn't look out of place in Deus Ex. Rather than crossing over with any canon tower, I thought it could be about the Deus Ex earth building its own Tower, where people live after, er, things happen in that series (keeping it spoiler-free)

At first I thought Saash Elle would be a good title, since it means 'God From' or 'Deus Ex' in Hymmnos. problem with the title is though, that I'm not sure even AT fans would immediately get the reference, since even I had to look up what 'God' and 'From' even were in Hymmnos. So now I'm thinking it'd be called Deus Exec, but still have characters called 'Sasha' and 'Elle' as a nod

That said, I still have Elegy of sacrifice to work on, and do at least want to write some snippets of my AT Genderbend idea, so it's likely Deus Exec won't be getting started anytime soon

according to reports, the second part of the story was handled similarly to a pen and paper roleplaying campaign, in which he offered players a range of choices for how the story would develop, and he would write using the choice that had the highest vote count from the players.

So basically he ran a Quest?
 
Author's Note: Okay, so this here's the beginning of Ar tonelico: Elegy of Sacrifice, part of the prologue set during the main characters' childhood to be specific. Not sure if what I've wrote so far is enough to give a good impression yet.
Had some anxiety when it came to writing this, partly from having to keep track of Ar tonelico lore (AT2 lore mainly), and partly because writing about trans characters pre-transition can be a little awkward, though writing in second-person makes pronouns slightly less of an issue



Ar tonelico: Elegy of Sacrifice (Excerpt)



You wanted to believe life was simpler back then. Compared to just what sort of life you led now, maybe it really was.

At the time you didn't even call yourself 'she', you didn't know what to call herself, but you got called 'he' and by the name 'Juhani Hartvig' by everyone else. Back then you were a spotty-faced, messy brown-haired child of ten, little different on the surface from any other child in your town raised to be a boy. You lived in a land called Metafalss, well what passed for a land anyway, that hung between a lofty tower and an endless expanse of sky.

Like most of the Metafalss Rim you lived in a rickety outpost town, though that day you were headed with your family to Enna, the only real city the Rim had. On foot too, since there was no way you could afford an airship. Most of the Rim was headed there that day too, or at least those who were able to go, as it was that day a grand visitation would take place.

On the dusty road leading closer to Enna, you had the chance opportunity to sneak off and run over to a boy you knew, a boy your age with long, dark-blue hair shrouding his face. He looked quite unlike other boys his age, but then what Reyvateil was ever raised as a boy?

"Hey, Sybil," you ran up to say, calling him by the name everyone called him back then, "What d'you think she's gonna be like, the Holy Maiden? Like I've only seen pictures of her-"

"H-Hartvig!" he scolded you, then rather than answer your question asked, "I thought your parents didn't want you seeing me?!"

"Ah, well, yeah, but…" you started mumbling, "Hey, what they don't know won't hurt 'em, right? 'Sides, it's not like my folks ever told me why I can't see you no more, so why should I listen to them, hmm?" you then grinned and placed your hands behind your head. "Anyway, she's really coming down to the Rim! So I gotta wonder what she's like?"

Seeing you weren't going away, Sybil said, "W-well, she is the Holy Maiden, all us Reyvateils are supposed to wanna be her, so she'd have to be someone really special. I mean, I imagine anyway."

"I know she's real pretty and all, like from what I've seen, Reyvateils always are," you smiled at Sybil, then had to ask the question every youngster in the world asked at some point, "Hey, how come us boys don't get to be Reyvateils, hmm?"

Sybil blushed at that, before he seethed out, "H-how I should know? I mean, they say there's this scientific reason, but like, n-nothing you're really told till you get… older," that last word seemed to shake him, for reasons that were also unknown to you.

You flinched a little and said, "Sorry, guess that sorta slipped outta me, it's weird adults not telling us though. Or 'bout much, really…"

It was then though that you nearly stumbled straight into another kid from your town, one you weren't so happy to see. He was Dyter, a hulking, spiky-haired kid a year older than you, who slowly turned around and gave a crooked-teeth grin down at you, then pulled at your collar. You tensed for a second for fear he'd pummel you, but he had another, not so physical tactic up his sleeve.

"Well well, if it isn't little Juhani, eh?" his barely cracking voice chortled as he then produced a set of pages in his free hand, all illustrations of Reyvateils. Illustrations you'd collected.

"Wait, hey, give those back!" you screamed out to no avail.

"Really, Juhani, I'm doin' ya by takin' these from ya. It's like you're obsessed with dolls or somethin', ain't natural for us guys. Savin' ya some serious embarrassment," Dyter said before he shoved you to the ground.

All the while, Sybil had been trying to chant up a Song, but switched it to a healing tune upon Dyter letting go of you. "Sybil, t-thanks," you said, even if due to Sybil's young age it hadn't been much of a heal.

"Figured if I did blast him he'd just complain to his parents," Sybil admitted in a hushed tone.

"Juhani!" you then heard your mother gasp out, with you turning pale on being found. She then rushed over to you, but rather than offer any comfort, instead narrowed her eyes and said, "I thought I told you to stay away from that girl!"

"Hey, Dyter was pushing him around, I was trying to save Juhani!" Sybil tried to insist.

"Aw come on, I was jus' helping Juhani out! Had to take away all his girly stuff to help him into society," was Dyter's… choice of defence.

"No, that's…" your mother looked down for a second, then said, "That's not what I was referring to," not saying what she was referring to. At least you could count on your dad to snatch your pictures out of Dyter's grubby hands when he wasn't looking.

"I am… so sorry my son bothered you," your mum then told Sybil, before she started dragging you back away. Sybil at least got in one last wave to you, Dyter one last glare.

Once your parents had taken you significantly out of Sybil's earshot, you caught your mum whispering to your dad, "Should we tell Juhani already? I mean, he's going to find out sooner or later…"

"I, I know what you mean, it's just," you heard your father sigh, "how you explain something like that to someone so young- Oh, ahem, hey there son," he then said, once he saw you were looking their way. "Hey listen, you know all that Reyvateil memorabilia you like? Well, don't let that kid's words get to you, after all it's *ahem* perfectly natural for a boy your age to start taking interest in women."

You nodded along with him, managing a "Hey, thanks dad." But though you didn't say it, the point he was trying to make about your Reyvateil interests, well, you don't think it quite matched up with what you were going through...



Author's Note: So if it wasn't clear from the text, this takes place in Nenesha's time as Maiden shortly before the invention of Diquility. That's what Hartvig's parents mean by not knowing when to tell: when to break how young Reyvateils die to their child. So what I wanted feedback on for now was how likely it could be that someone on Metafalss pre-Diquility could grow to 10 and still not know about Reyvateil lifespans?

As Juhani will become their deadname, I had planned to leave Hartvig's eventual name up to a vote, though I've personally been thinking something like Charlotta or Greta
 
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Yep, an officially sanctioned quest that was part of one of the games he personally designed and wrote for.

As for your question... it's pretty unlikely that there would be people who don't know about how short Reyvateil life spans are in Metafalss during the pre-Diquility times, given how public a figure the Maiden is, the saying of "Maidens being like flowers", and the festivals that celebrated their short lives.

On a different topic, I also wanted to share a few other things I've made these last years:

Starter Guides for EXA_PICO:


An introductory guide for Hymmnos: Hymmnos sos Nnoini Gyenel.docx

An interview with Akiko Shikata dated right before the release of the first game: ARM Backup/Ar Portal translation/Dokkoi Festival/01-10
 
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like it's possible.

I tried embedding it using the Options -> Saving config panel in Microsoft Word, and the font still doesn't show up on my mobile browsers.
 
About my AT1 genderswap and Reyvateil-vanguard swap, I was thinking what weapons would male-Misha and Aurica (Aulis) even have? With Misha you could draw on the weapons the original's Kasha and Shinobi selves had (swords and daggers), but with Aulis I had the idea that he could use Wind & Fire Wheels, referencing Aurica's main elements, shaped like Aurica's hair decs. Which does beg the question of what Aulis would be like as a frontline fighter, since a male Misha could probably slot into the Rogue niche?

As for your question... it's pretty unlikely that there would be people who don't know about how short Reyvateil life spans are in Metafalss during the pre-Diquility times, given how public a figure the Maiden is, the saying of "Maidens being like flowers", and the festivals that celebrated their short lives.

Yeah, I was trying to think about what age one would be when they learned about how shorts Reyvateil lives were back when. Hartvig's meant to be 10 in this intro section, but now I'm thinking even that's too old to first learn about it. More that you'd learn about it the first time you learned of death in general, so about 5-ish, maybe younger considering what Metafalss is like.
I've been thinking for a while now that it'd be easier for Elegy of Sacrifice if I just skipped the childhood Prologue and went straight to the story proper in young adulthood

By the way, I stumbled upon this character introduction from a Danganronpa fan series with an, er, 'interesting' name:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZi5gWXcuBs


However, given there's little overlap between the Danganronpa and Ar tonelico fandoms, and that 'Akira' is a common enough name, most likely this was just sheer coincidence. Still find it funny though
 
A bit of necro to deliver a couple of updates:

-The Ciel nosurge Offline project is still progressing, albeit slowly because we had to change up the editors yet again last month, but at least the current ones are doing their work quite well.
-Somebody posted a translation for Finnel's drama CD on the wiki just today: Drama CD Side Finnel ~after story~

As it was the case with Tilia, this drama CD takes place after Finnel's true ending, but it still has some interesting things to show us: Mir doing Mir things in Clusternia, what is happening in Clusternia now they have started accepting humans, and a conflict with our dear Shitframe.
 
The pictures are pretty nice, although a couple of them remind me of the Bezelieltron Tower from Soreil.
 
The pictures are pretty nice, although a couple of them remind me of the Bezelieltron Tower from Soreil.
They're not really specifying Ar Tonelico; there wasn't enough relevant art in the training set for that. So this is a more generic prompt, with cherry-picked AT-esque outputs. I could probably improve on that somewhat by using AT art as inputs, but... there isn't enough, really.
 
Speaking of images...

I forgot to share this discovery we did a good while back, but I think it's good to repost it so more people know about it: both Ar nosurge and the long-deceased AHPA site from the Ar Portal had what seems to be a complete map of Ar Ciel store in the form of textures, one for the game's Ar Ciel section of the map, and the other as part of a Flash animation of the planet's rotation.

The image from the AHPA site is posted here: Ar Ciel

While the texture for the Ar nosurge map is this one:


This second texture is intended to be placed on the map geometry, so it isn't as accurate as the one from the article, but it should serve well as another look at how the planet's continents are positioned.
 
Something I wanted to talk about are some surprising connections I found out about between Ar Tonelico and Doctor Who. That the Hymmnos and Gallifreyan languages, especially Old High Gallifreyan, have a lot of similarities.

Both Hymmnos and Gallifreyan are inherently musical languages, and like Hymmnos Gallifreyan is also used for advanced computer coding (like in the TARDIS for instance). Additionally, Old High Gallifreyan like Hymmnos is no longer commonly used but has supernatural properties, working like a sci-fi version of spellcasting. Only difference between the two is that Gallifreyan isn't specified to be an emotional language, much unlike Hymmnos.

Mind-diving is also a thing in Doctor Who, though not to the extent of Ar tonelico of course. The biggest DW example I can think of is the novel Timewyrm: Revelation, largely set within The Doctor's own mind, with his past incarnations acting like a Reyvateil's other selves within it. Mind-diving also comes up in the TV episode Heaven Sent and the comic Heralds of Destruction, the latter saying that travelling into people's minds is something the TARDIS can just do.

More similarities include Gallifrey having a giant computer at its centre, The matrix (a term DW used first), like the Towers. If you also have Looms be canon, then Time Lords are also artificially created just like Origin and Beta Reyvateils are. Time Lord society also has three founders (Rassilon, Omega, and The Other if you count him) just like Reyvateils have three Origins... okay, that last one's a stretch due to just how often Rule of Three is a thing in fiction, but still.
Of course, there are plenty of male Time Lords and Reyvateils don't turn into another person when they die*, so I could be getting a little Sharpshooter Fallacy here.

All that said, I do think that the similarities between the two series I've listed above are probably coincidence. Doctor Who does have a Japanese fanbase (if nowhere near as much as it does in South Korea) and Tsuchiya has referenced Western works as inspiration like Lord of the Rings, so him being influenced by DW is possible. However, knowledge of how exactly the Gallifreyan language works isn't that common even among Whovians, DW is more than long-running enough that you could find similarities between it and any other series, and I doubt Timewyrm: Revelation would have a Japanese translation, so yeah, I'll assume coincidence for now.

But I still find it fun to think about, and if anyone ever writes crossover fanfic this is definitely something to keep in mind.

*Edit: I remembered that Beta Reyvateils actually do, as the software that makes up can be repurposed into another Reyvateil. Granted, it's certainly not as instantaneous as Time Lord regeneration is, so more like the Looms I guess
 
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Apropos of nothing, I find myself wondering: How likely are the Teru to still know Emotional Song Pact? I'd think they'd have known it in the beginning, being from Ra Ciela, though it has been well over five thousand years.

And another question, unrelated to the first: Where does the water for all the rain the Towers would need come from? Like, I get that the Musical Corridors and the Wings of Hynemos can make it rain, but as Duo Waltz of the Rainbow Country shows, making matter ex nihilo is extremely difficult, so the water would have to be brought from somewhere.
 
It doesn't seem like any of the Teru aside from the clan leaders know the language anymore, if what Ayatane says in Ar nosurge is any indication.

As for water, it comes from condensing the water vapor that is found in the atmosphere, which is well within the weather control devices' capabilities to do. They're not making it come from nowhere.
 
And for a little update, we have a double-whammy of interviews with Tsuchiya coming from two polar opposite points in time: one prior to AT1's release, and another before the release of Surge Concerto DX.


artonelico.fandom.com

ARM Backup/Surge Concerto/Surge Concerto DX Interview

Originally posted here: [1]. Mr. Tsuchiya, who 10 years ago made a plan aiming at making the real world communicate with another adjoining world - virtual characters, talk about what "Ciel nosurge" achieved. It has been 4 years since Kizuna Ai debuted in 2016, and the VTubers' activities have...

I've also been hard a work with making some new articles for the wiki, the latest ones I've completed being the ones for Diquility andThird Generations.
 
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